Spoilers Supergirl - Season 5
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
WOW. You really don't like the person of Lena Luthor!
Don't get that twisted: I see the character for who she is, not what some want to conveniently ignore all for the sake of a selling themselves on a less than convincing "friendship" plot. Again...eugenics philosophy and actions. There's no silver lining in that.
I'm still not sold on the Leviathan plot and other aspects of this season, but the confrontation between Lena and Supergirl was wrenching, and the climax with J'onn and Malefic was pretty potent too.
I don't like it that the villains are from yet another destroyed sister planet of Krypton. Also, if it was their crashing ship that killed the dinosaurs on Earth-38, what killed the dinosaurs on every other Earth? Are there Leviathans on those Earths too?
Well, at least we know that Brainy is an Avatar: The Last Airbender fan.
I don't like it that the villains are from yet another destroyed sister planet of Krypton. Also, if it was their crashing ship that killed the dinosaurs on Earth-38, what killed the dinosaurs on every other Earth? Are there Leviathans on those Earths too?
Well, at least we know that Brainy is an Avatar: The Last Airbender fan.
(Sorry to not have developped my case earlier but I have just arrived at the office and I just got the time to read your comment before the telephone starts ringing and duty calls me ...).
I remind you that trying to improve lineage science (Francis Galton's definition of eugenics) was very fashionable among scientists and politicians for almost a century and let's honest, this will remains unchanged today (who did not hope to eradicate cancer, Alzheimer, act on the genes responsible for imbecility, selfishness and violence disappear but to create too, a society exclusively composed of healthy individuals, physically and psychologically, sociable, intelligent and altruistic? => all of this with good will but alas, it can quickly turn to the extreme too: racism, mass extermination, etc... ). I agree those who have sought to define a human ideal have only rarely done so based on objective criteria.
Here, you refered to Lena Luthor as " one of the most consistently corrupt people in her world" but I don't see the link between Lena's past actions with an eventual corruption. Au contraire, I'd rather say that when we take a closer look, she had been the one who was scammed by her family and her friends (and I don't talk about about Kara's secret which was kept by her "Superfriends" because well, it was simply not their role to reveal the identity of Supergirl but to Kara herself to reveal her secret to her best friend -> hey, I bet that even Kelly must know Kara's double identity while she isn't directly impacted!). While Lena tried desperately to make a name in acting good even if the ways used were questionable, even people who were close to her, kept thinking of her as a Luthor with all the bad reputation that this name induces. It will be interesting to see how they react in the future, now that the secret is out and they know about Lena's face to face with Kara/Supergirl in icy cavern.
As for Lena's present actions, well, I'd say as a very proud, brillant and very competent woman she is, she can not do anything moderately (she took very hard the humilation and she intends to hit hard in return those she considers as responsibles).
I hope to be able to catch "Tremors" tonight or tomorrow evening and comment more about the episode.
I remind you that trying to improve lineage science (Francis Galton's definition of eugenics) was very fashionable among scientists and politicians for almost a century and let's honest, this will remains unchanged today (who did not hope to eradicate cancer, Alzheimer, act on the genes responsible for imbecility, selfishness and violence disappear but to create too, a society exclusively composed of healthy individuals, physically and psychologically, sociable, intelligent and altruistic? => all of this with good will but alas, it can quickly turn to the extreme too: racism, mass extermination, etc... ). I agree those who have sought to define a human ideal have only rarely done so based on objective criteria.
Here, you refered to Lena Luthor as " one of the most consistently corrupt people in her world" but I don't see the link between Lena's past actions with an eventual corruption. Au contraire, I'd rather say that when we take a closer look, she had been the one who was scammed by her family and her friends (and I don't talk about about Kara's secret which was kept by her "Superfriends" because well, it was simply not their role to reveal the identity of Supergirl but to Kara herself to reveal her secret to her best friend -> hey, I bet that even Kelly must know Kara's double identity while she isn't directly impacted!). While Lena tried desperately to make a name in acting good even if the ways used were questionable, even people who were close to her, kept thinking of her as a Luthor with all the bad reputation that this name induces. It will be interesting to see how they react in the future, now that the secret is out and they know about Lena's face to face with Kara/Supergirl in icy cavern.
As for Lena's present actions, well, I'd say as a very proud, brillant and very competent woman she is, she can not do anything moderately (she took very hard the humilation and she intends to hit hard in return those she considers as responsibles).
I hope to be able to catch "Tremors" tonight or tomorrow evening and comment more about the episode.
I'm trying to get caught up on the current 'runs' of some Supergirl podcasts I like, so I've stopped watching SG until I do, but with no new episode next week, I'm hoping I can be caught up by the 8th of December just in time for CoIE.
...and appealing to the ill-minded of the past, and any who support the intellectually/biologically bankrupt fantasy of eugenics is not helping your case. A host of patently evil legislation (compulsory sterilization) and wretched individuals argued in favor of protecting the "race"/eliminating "inferior" traits/physical forms/behaviors through eugenics including, but not limited to Charles Davenport (and his American Breeder’s Association), Margaret Sanger, and others too numerous to list here dating back to the 19th century and well into the present day. Try as you might, there's no conflating the eradication of--for example--disease common to most with "improving" a human for the flimsy notion of "superior" psychological or physical states. The number of people damaged by the acts/philosophy/application of eugenics programs at every level--just taking the U.S. as a sample--are frankly incalculable..
In the case of Lena, her arguments and experiments over the past couple of seasons are not remotely altruistic, but martial in application and showing a complete disregard for the natural, unmolested destiny of man. She has killed one (Adam), usurped Eve's own identity, merging it with the Hope A.I. (and yes, she had already experimented on Even before the latter ever gave any form of "consent"), kidnaps J'onn's brother to do what? Experiment...use his powers as part of her ultimate goals to alter humanity. This is Lena being consistently corrupt...and if anyone bought the notion that this is all based on a feeling of betrayal, it would not only make her appear to be petty in the extreme, but in truth, she was already experimenting on/killing Adam long before Lex told her the secret. She has no excuse.
I agree.
What I found interesting about this last episode was how we saw 6 people in different stages of trauma and /or recovery.
For once, Alex is the healthiest one, her heart healed from her breakup with Maggie and able not to mention willing to reach out / do the work to pull post traumatic Kelly into the land of the living with her.
J'onn and his brother are both damaged,though Malefic significantly worse since he dreams of killing J'onn whereas J'onn only dreamed of imprisoning Malefic. Still, J'onn sees he can not rest until he atones for all the evil Malefic perceives he has done to him and towards that end he lets down his every defense and allows the "villain" to walk unimpeded into his own "fortress of solitude"/ mind. With his Martian ability to mind meld/share the bond, Malefic can see into his J'onn's heart and is able to forgive him.
Lena, like Kelly, suffers from significant pathology, most at the hands of her brother and step mother after the death of her mother, some from the betrayal of her childhood friend Andrea and some from her inability to save her former lover, Jack Spheer. Her pathology forces her to see/judge everything through the Luthor lens of betrayal, and unlike Alex and J'onn she cannot see her own culpability in what has happened and a path to true healing. She's like Malefic before the bonding and Supergirl gets the worst of it.
I remember the 80's when Perestroika reigned and Hollywood needed to find new bad guys, so instead of Soviet agents we got a lot of (pre Nelson Mandela's release) South African agents in the movies. Watching this show and listening to the anti LUTHOR faction, I've come to realize the only politically correct bad guy left is one with Luthor DNA.
Malefic sold out his race to the White Martians but he deserves a path to redemption, not Lena?
Lena cried out to Kara, begging her not to violate her trust, not to prove that once again she was a fool, and just before she left the fortress, Lena once again proclaimed, "I am not a villain, you shouldn't have treated me like one."
Lena's no fool.
She know's she's the cold war soviet agent, the 1980's South African aparthied era agents, the 1990's corporate business "greed is good" agents, the 21st century climate destroying agents,
She's the guy we are taught not to trust, she's the one who is shunned when its time to play in our reindeer games, and she's just walked out on the one person who wept over their friendship as much as she had.
The question is will Kara channel her sister and J'onn's actions, or will she play the fool and seek vengence?
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Wait, I NEVER said that I agreed with those who made these kind of experiences but I can understand the state of mind of some, especially those who want to make deadly diseases disappear definitvely or try to intervene to make some people less dangerous than they are. But to understand doesn't mean I agree/support all techniques used to get there
But basically, it doesn't matter what you and I think, eugenics experiences happened in the past and will continue in the future for the better as for the worse and populations will have no say.
Kelly is "probably" from Superman's friend's gallery.
If she's known that Clark is Superman for the last 10 years, then it's child's play to work out from there that Clark's cousin is Superman's cousin... Although Lena is so damn caught up in her own bullshit, that she hasn't really chewed over that she know's who Superman is, or that Lex knew who Superman was, and didn't press his advantage against Clark Kent.
If she's known that Clark is Superman for the last 10 years, then it's child's play to work out from there that Clark's cousin is Superman's cousin... Although Lena is so damn caught up in her own bullshit, that she hasn't really chewed over that she know's who Superman is, or that Lex knew who Superman was, and didn't press his advantage against Clark Kent.
Huh? Lena hasn't done anything irredeemable yet. They're still making a point of her unwillingness to kill -- aside from killing Lex, which she's clearly tortured by. She's not evil, she's broken. She's guilty about killing Lex and it's driving her to this fanatical need to end all violence by any means necessary. And she feels alone and unable to trust anyone but herself, which is driving her to want to control people so they can't hurt her again. None of that puts her beyond the point where she can be saved. We aren't meant to hate her.
I mean, frankly, she has a point about Kara's duplicity. The whole superhero "lie to my loved ones to protect them" trope is pretty messed up if you think about it. It's really more about protecting oneself from exposure. And virtually every other one of Kara's close friends knew her secret, so her reasons for not telling Lena were kind of flimsy. Especially (as Lena pointed out) when she knew how Lena felt about betrayal.
You're still in a frame of mind attempting to rationalize an advocate of eugenics, and a "rational" explanation stands in complete opposition to the life and natural journey of mankind. Attempting to create super-beings, personality/motive manipulation is as base as once can get in an individual or group's views on their fellow man. Advocates have and always will assume that they know there is a "better" model, or models unworthy of survival based on their own eternally corrupt beliefs, and again, long before this "betrayal" sub-plot, Lena was already engaging in abominable experiments, none of which can not be justified by her poor self image, family history/legacy, bas friendships or any other personal issue that has nothing to do with her beliefs in eugenics.
If this series showrunners had guts at all, the Lena plot (and all that has been built up about her in the past couple of seasons) will not be One To Grow On-ed away with simplistic, inapplicable excuses.
You think that what she did to Eve is redeemable? This is a violation that is easily on the level of the worst kinds of rape. That ALONE should have her in jail for life. This is one step above Vader killing the younglings. Murder isn't the only irredeemable act. She needs to pay for her crimes, and a "my bad" isn't going to cut it. Good that she doesn't want to kill, but she's still an evil person.
Not really. The more people that know, the more likely the secret gets out. It defeats the purpose of the secret identity if it's not a secret. And if it becomes public, then criminals will target the loved ones.
The lines that Lena has crossed have also been crossed - in some cases many times over - by other, explicitly heroic characters (Oliver, Sara, Mick, Earth-1 Snart, Earth-2 Laurel, Caitlyn), so acting like she's not worthy of a redemption arc is just pure bias against her.
I don't personally think that the writers have completely 'earned' the direction in which they're taking Lena's character, but they thankfully haven't completely trashed her nobility the way that Game of Thrones did with Dany.
I don't personally think that the writers have completely 'earned' the direction in which they're taking Lena's character, but they thankfully haven't completely trashed her nobility the way that Game of Thrones did with Dany.
An unauthorized (committed before Eve gave her "permission" to experiment), hostile manipulation / rewriting a human's own consciousness / identity is barbarism. All of the Lena fan defenses do not erase any of her acts, as again, eugenics has no excuse whatsoever, just as the A.S.A./Odell, et al., on Black Lightning have experimented on generations of innocent people, creating metahumans, using and discarding (killing) them at will, which is morally reprehensible, not to be defended with the most dubious "what-about-isms" imaginable.
Agreed.
Wait a second, Lena visited the Fortress of Solitude back in Season 2.
Why was she acting like she has never been there before?
Also Lillian warned her this would happen in the same episode.
https://www.reddit.com/r/supergirlTV/comments/dyl17s/lillian_warned_kara_this_could_happen_back_in/
Why was she acting like she has never been there before?
Also Lillian warned her this would happen in the same episode.
https://www.reddit.com/r/supergirlTV/comments/dyl17s/lillian_warned_kara_this_could_happen_back_in/
Sorry Christopher, I left out a question mark at the end of my sentence.
It should have read...
Malefic sold out his race to the White Martians but he deserves a path to redemption, not Lena?
As for lying to Lena, I think Kara made it abundantly clear that she lied to Lena because by the time she was comfortable enough to tell her the truth, she knew Lena would react EXACTLY this way, shutting down because she had been ( Horror of horrors) BETRAYED by a lie.
How often has Lena lied to Kara?
Lena knows Kara and Supergirl are tight,( SG was supposedly having coffee with Kara when Mom's goons tossed Lena over the balcony ) but she never told Kara that she was working with an alien to "solve" world hunger, that she was working with Sam to free her from Reign, that she knew how to make Kryptonite, that she was experimenting on the highly dangerous Harunel or that she was working with Lex on same until it was too late to help.
Lena sees the lies Kara told, but not the truth in her words ...
"Kara Danvers believes in you."
...nor in her actions.
"I will always be your friend...
... and I will always protect you...
... I promise"
So here is a cute/heartwarming story.
So Sam Witwer (who played Agent Liberty) streams games over on twitch, and he had Katie McGrath on last month and told this story.
Apparently she loves Indiana Jones, and Sam does a great Ford impression that Katie just loves, so any time Katie was feeling down, or just not with it, he would just do that impression it would just make her day.
I like hearing and seeing actors being friends on and off set. It jus makes me happy.
Here’s the VOD of her and Sam playing an early 90s Indiana Jones point and click game
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/495567152
Sam is also fun to watch by himself as well. He’s a big geek.
I’d love to see him come back as a ‘good’ agent liberty, maybe from another Earth.
So Sam Witwer (who played Agent Liberty) streams games over on twitch, and he had Katie McGrath on last month and told this story.
Apparently she loves Indiana Jones, and Sam does a great Ford impression that Katie just loves, so any time Katie was feeling down, or just not with it, he would just do that impression it would just make her day.
I like hearing and seeing actors being friends on and off set. It jus makes me happy.
Here’s the VOD of her and Sam playing an early 90s Indiana Jones point and click game
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/495567152
Sam is also fun to watch by himself as well. He’s a big geek.
I’d love to see him come back as a ‘good’ agent liberty, maybe from another Earth.
Is that the same one where Sam plays while Katie spends most of the time on her phone then they go out for pizza?
If I remember well, Lena's experiences didn't seem to bother her friends, especially Alex and James when they needed help, yet they exactly knew what they were about and the ins and outs.
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