Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Admiral_Young, Jul 16, 2012.
Congratulations. You just named a character played by an actor who appeared in 4 SUPERMAN films
I know that Peter O'Toole was in Supergirl, which isn't hard to remember at all, since he is a world-famous actor with multiple Oscar nominations. Do I remember the name of his character without cheating? No.
But so what? It's neither here nor there. As I've already said, in movies with so many problems to begin with, what is your basis for picking on this one thing?
Furthermore, by your own admission, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider lacked your special element, yet it was actually a success. You've actually provided evidence against your own claim that this element you're picking on is a determining factor for success.
Brainiac says this discussion is irrelevant.
I remember the male leads playing pretty significant roles in Elektra and Catwoman. I certainly remember Will Yun Lee and Cary Hiroyuki-Tagawa as the main antagonists in Elektra, and I remember Benjamin Bratt as the male lead/love interest in Catwoman. I definitely remember Elektra's love interest playing a significant role in the film, though I don't remember the actor's name. I don't remember any of their character names, no, but then, I don't remember most of the female character names from those films either, beyond those of their respective title characters.
Oh, wait, yes, I remember Terence Stamp as Elektra's mentor Stick. Kneel before Stick!
So I don't think the "male/female dynamic" suggestion above holds up.
My own admission? I never said Laura Croft wasn't a super hero
I think Laura Croft fits in comfortably in the "grey area" that Catwoman fits in. Laura is a hero when she wants to be, and often does heroic deeds, even though she also has her own interests at heart.
Laura Croft was a financial success, and although she is a video game character, I would argue that she is a modern day superhero. Same goes with Alice from Resident Evil. Laura Croft has also appeared in plenty of comics over the years. The 2nd Tomb Raider didn't do as well financially, and we never saw a third.
The issue I was referring to was whether Lara Croft was successful. You inappropriately lumped it in with failures.
And yeah, this sidebar is irrelevant and pointless, so I'm done with it.
Will Supergirl randomly start attending an all girls school and fall in love with a gardener again in this movie?
Well, it holds up pretty well for me, but opinions will vary on this. I have no difficulty remembering the names of the female characters from films like Batman, Spiderman and Superman. If you can't remember the names of the male characters from the female led movies (beyond characters like Jimmy Olsen who appeared first in male-led superhero films), then I think that does say something. I remember that Benjamin Bratt appeared in Catwoman, but I would never be able to remember his name. Stick? I like Terrance, but that is a pretty awful name. I never would have remembered that one, although I vaguely remember the actor being in the film. His performance in that film was no General Zod, to be sure.
Look, I want a great female lead Superhero movie as much as the next person. I'm even producing a "She-Ra" fan film right now. But so far, we haven't seen a successful female superhero movie of a character who originated in comics. Will it happen? Probably. The man to direct Wonder-Woman was Joss Whedon, and the studio blew it on that one by letting him go (I believe he moved on to something called The Avengers). If I had to place bets, I would say the next successful female "superhero" film will be a movie based on Black Widow, even though she doesn't have any super powers.
I never once said that Tomb Raider was a failure. Go back and read what I said. I listed her with the other super-heroine films (which just happened to be failures) because I was making a point that there was no memorable male characters in any of those super-heroine films. I wasn't basing my point on financial success when I made that statement, although I can see how you may have interpreted it that way based on my previous posts. Point being, none of the "super-heroine" films have had memorable male characters. They have been weak and in need of protection (like Jimmy Olsen - a Superman character), or forgettable (like the father in Elecktra).
I'm done with the sidebar.
Good for you. I'm done too.
All it says it that you're cherry-picking my words to fit your preconceptions. Remember, I specifically said that I couldn't remember most of the character names in those films, male or female. I've only seen Elektra maybe 2-3 times, the last time being several years ago, and I've never seen Catwoman all the way through, though I think I've caught most or all of it in the course of two separate viewings on TV. And I haven't seen Supergirl in decades.
So you're absolutely wrong about what my comments show. They only show that I haven't seen the movies in question very often or very recently, and that I have a much worse memory than I wish I did. They absolutely do not show a differential in the memorability of male vs. female characters in those films. I may not remember the names of most of the characters of either sex, but I definitely remember their presence and roles in the story about equally.
Stick is a well-established comics character, created by Frank Miller in 1981. He was sensei to both Daredevil and Elektra in the comics, though only to Elektra in the movies.
I'm not cherry-picking from what you said. Just pointing out the fact that male characters are not that memorable in these films. Of course, I could just be going senile with old age... lol... but for the life of me I can't remember a single name of any male character in any of those films, beyond Jimmy Olsen. I also can't think of any male character that I actually liked in any of the super-heroine films, but that is probably due to forgettable acting. It may sound like a generalization, but male characters tend to not be very well written in these super-heroine films.
You just did it again! I've said over and over again that the male characters were no more or less memorable to me that the female ones! But you're completely ignoring the part that you don't want to hear and only acknowledging the part that supposedly confirms your preconceptions. That is the very definition of cherry-picking!
See, the very way you're defining the issue forces your desired conclusion. The question that matters is, can you remember the names of any of the supporting female characters either? It is absolutely meaningless to say you can't remember the men's names unless you can show that the female characters are more memorable.
I think Xena might also be added to that list, and Jamie Sommers the Bionic Woman, technically, she is a superhero too, being able to run 60 miles per hour is still super human if not as fast as the Flash.
As for the Supergirl movie, the one complaint I have is Supergirl spent too much time in the Phantom Zone, where she couldn't use her superpowers. I mean if your going to have a superhero movie those powers should be tested, not negated. I mean they didn't toss Superman into the Phantom Zone, the closest he got was Superman II where he voluntarily gave up his powers so he could marry Lois Lane, so he went and got them back when the three villains from Krypton showed up, it wasn't that hard for Clark to get his powers back.
The Wonder Woman animated movie failed for quite a few reasons.
For starters, she isn't Batman or Superman. Both Superman and Batman are widely popular and well known, having had numerous animated TV shows, video games, recent liveaction TV shows and movies. To be frank the concept of a DC trinity is a joke, being more like the DC duo.
Then there's Wonder Womans outfit, which at best looks like she's wearing a swimsuit to a 1960's playboy swimsuit competition. When they deigned to give her pants and make her look a bit more up to date, comic fans foamed at the mouth.
Speaking of male comic fandom, lets face it not a small proportion of them have issues seeing ladies as anything other then sex objects (but then same goes for geeks/nerds), some even being openly misogynistic. Not all of them, probably not even close to a quarter of them, but enough. At least that's my feeling based on comments I've read on comic websites.
Finally there's the concept of the character herself which seems to take two forms. Domination fantasies of strong women dominating men (and in some cases men dominating strong women) and a very bad parody of a straw feminist. The character herself is uninteresting and bland to the point of making Superman look exciting as a character. Batgirl, Zatanna, Barbara Gordon as Oracle (heck she'd make a better member of the trinity then Wonder Woman) and Supergirl would have been better stars of their own movies.
Basically the animated movie was doomed to fail from the very beginning.
Regarding superheroine movies as a whole, I suspect a large portion of the problem comes down to how they're written and designed. With a female superheroine they tend to go overboard in one way or the other, whether that's sticking her in a stipperific outfit and/or feeling like they have to make a feminist statement with it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just that they do whack it over your head with a blunt instrument in a way Buffy didn't. Also there's a lack of focus on the character herself, unlike in superhero movies (especially recent ones) that focus on the characters inner turmoil and problems etc.
I think what those movies show is that people will see films with female leads if there's solid material behind them. The original Wonder Woman series, Xena, Bionic Woman series mentioned also seem to support this.
We can argue the whys but the female superhero films have been rather subpar for whatever reason. The films so far just haven't really deserved a bigger audience.
Except it didn't actually fail. I posted a link to the sales numbers earlier in the thread, and it was actually one of the better selling DC Animated movies.
I guess the difference here between us is that I do remember most of the female characters names from the super-heroine films, whereas you don't. I have no problem remembering Lucy Lane being Supergirl's roommate, or Selena being the villain in that film, but I could never remember Peter O'Toole's character's name. I definietly cannot remember the boring love interest's name (I think he was the gardener.. lol). Female characters are easier to remember for me, since they tend to be sidekicks of sorts (although usually not the costumed variety). The men tend to be just eye-candy, 2 dimensional bad-guys, or father figures.
In response to the Wonder-Woman animated movie: I own it, and I love it. That is Wonder-Woman done right, and Steve Trevor is portrayed great in that film. I really feel the animated film has something for everyone. Although it wasn't a huge financial success, it didn't loose any money. It would be cool to see a sequel to that one someday.
The gardener doesn't do much, he is basically just bait for supergirl, but to be fair, he's just an ordinary person or a love interest, its hard to be anything else but that in a superhero movie when one doesn't have superpowers. So just being the Devil's advocate, what else can he do besides get rescued by Supergirl?
Lois Lane usually has a nose for trouble and getting herself in situations where she needs to be rescued by Superman, what other role can she possibly play? Well she is an investigator, she investigates bad guys and is usually a better sleuth than Superman, so it stands to reason that Supergirl's boyfriend ought to be some sort of detective, someone who in a nonsuperhero film might actually be the hero. Since supergirl is a teenager, it kind of makes sense that her boyfriend not be much older than she is. I'd say someone who works for the FBI or CIA would make the best choice. FBI would probably be better, and of course this FBI agent frequently gets himself in situations he can't handle and needs rescuing by supergirl, I think that would work the best, what do you think?
Separate names with a comma.