Supergirl Animated Movie

[Mars]

It's ridiculous to abandon all female-led movies because one did poorly. They wouldn't cancel all movies with male leads just because one did poorly. It's gross sexism.

Perhaps, but as a business decision it makes sense. Think about it, the audience for superhero films is overwhelmingly male. Men, in general, tend not to consume genre products with female leads and there are usually not enough female fans to pick up the slack.

A good example of this was SuckerPunch. Most of the people that loved and appreciated what was done in that movie were women. Men, by and large, hated it. This is probably why it took so long for the WW video to make back its money. Wonder Woman is the most famous female superhero in the world...and still she struggles. I doubt a Supergirl or Batgirl film would fare any better. As long as female led properties struggle to get a male audience its going to be harder to convince the studios to fund these films.

Why the automatic assumption that because Wonder Woman didn't do well, neither would supergirl, or because a supergirl movie was produced, it was necessarily the best of all possible supergirl movies? No one wants to blame the writer or producer of the movie if it does poorly, it is always the fault of the character concept because the writers and producers are so conceited in saying no one could write any better than they could. Wonder Woman proves nothing about supergirl, they are different characters.

If someone makes a terrible Lord of the Rings movie, is that J.R. Tolkein's fault? I think Supergirl did poorly because it was given a lousy writer and producer, if they give them better screen writers perhaps they would do better.

^I'm not ignoring the reality -- I'm refusing to settle for the reality. Discriminatory realities never change

It's not "discriminatory", "mysogynist" or any of the other Womynist labels that get thrown out there. It's about what sells.

Trust me, I know what it's like to have favored characters get screwed because they don't sell. I have the majority of the Byrne WW run. I love good strong female leads like Silver Sable, Widow, Spider-Girl (the real one, aka May Parker).

But they don't sell, and in this climate neither Disney nor Marvel is going to risk much on them. Not because they're women, but because they are, unfortunately, a bad investment.

Maybe they don't sell because he can't write a good story with them, some other writer might write a better story. Its a lame excuse to write a lousy novel and then blame your fictional characters for the book being so lousy.

The reason, according to the comments I've read from female comics fans online, is that the big publishers tend to marginalize and objectify female characters in a way that alienates female readers.

Aren't you one of the people always minimizing the importance of on-line posts by fans?

I've seen plenty of non-objectivizing portrayals of female characters such as Ms Marvel, Rogue, Sue Richards, Silver Sable, etc. For that matter, even characters like Moonstone and Emma Frost. They may be a b-word, but they're strong, confident, empowered and multifaceted

Remember the controversy over the demeaning portrayals of Catwoman, Starfire, and Voodoo in their first New 52 appearances?

Can't comment as I haven't read them.



I disagree...see above.

So it's not right to say that the industry is just responding to a lack of interest from the female audience. It's the other way around -- the audience is driven away by the decisions of the industry. There's plenty of female readership and creative participation in independent comics, but they don't find the top publishers' product as inviting because of the way it treats female characters.

Again, does not square with the facts.

And I should add that there are surely plenty of men, including myself, who would rather see well-rendered, respectfully treated female characters than just ones that pander to adolescent fantasies.

And we have had them. And they don't sell. For that matter, blatantly pandering comics like Tarot:Witch of the Black Rose don't sell all that well either (at least by Big Two standards).

I think if you do female characters, you write them for both make and female readers, you don't try to cater to one or the other, you end up losing both.

^You have to remember, Christopher, that the marketing people for these animated projects ALSO look at the sales performance of the comics themselves as guides. Female-lead comics aren't selling, for whatever reason.

The reason, according to the comments I've read from female comics fans online, is that the big publishers tend to marginalize and objectify female characters in a way that alienates female readers. Remember the controversy over the demeaning portrayals of Catwoman, Starfire, and Voodoo in their first New 52 appearances? There are high points like Batwoman and Renee Montoya and the Birds of Prey, well-portrayed female characters that women readers really respond to, but there are still far too many female characters that are just softcore pandering to teenage males.

So it's not right to say that the industry is just responding to a lack of interest from the female audience. It's the other way around -- the audience is driven away by the decisions of the industry. There's plenty of female readership and creative participation in independent comics, but they don't find the top publishers' product as inviting because of the way it treats female characters.

And I should add that there are surely plenty of men, including myself, who would rather see well-rendered, respectfully treated female characters than just ones that pander to adolescent fantasies.

I agree, one should write a good story about them, its the story that sells. If one writes a bad story, and then says no one can write any better and just attributes it to a lousy character because their slutty female pictures won't sell, that is a cop out.

I'd always rather see female superheroes--as well as female characters overall--in films and TV. I've preferred films where women were the lead characters, like Salt, Haywire and Smilla's Sense Of Snow, to name but a few.

I loved the Wonder Woman animated film, and hoped to see sequels from it. Now I see why nothing more came of it. It's a shame that the only way we can get to see Supergirl these days is only if she's guest-starring in a Superman animated movie. I'd love to see Supergirl--not to mention Batgirl--in her own adventure.

Sean

Women are nicer to look at, that's for sure, all they need is a good writer, and writers that are not humble enough to conceded that someone might have written a better story than they did blame the character they write about instead, it makes them feel better to say female characters don't sell than to admit they didn't write a good enough story about them.

 

[Hound of UIster]

^I'm not ignoring the reality -- I'm refusing to settle for the reality. Discriminatory realities never change

It's not "discriminatory", "mysogynist" or any of the other Womynist labels that get thrown out there. It's about what sells.

Trust me, I know what it's like to have favored characters get screwed because they don't sell. I have the majority of the Byrne WW run. I love good strong female leads like Silver Sable, Widow, Spider-Girl (the real one, aka May Parker).

But they don't sell, and in this climate neither Disney nor Marvel is going to risk much on them. Not because they're women, but because they are, unfortunately, a bad investment.

Maybe they don't sell because he can't write a good story with them, some other writer might write a better story. Its a lame excuse to write a lousy novel and then blame your fictional characters for the book being so lousy.

In the case of WW, there was no correlation between the numbers sold and the actual quality of the story. The Byrne tenure sold the most books per issue, but it was a terrible run. Yet Perez's tenure, which was the definite run on the book for around twenty years didn't sell all that well. The numbers I think speak to the fact that the principle monthly comic reader isn't really all that interested in a female character unless there is heavy objectification.

 

[Captain Atkin]

The real problem, for me, with a lot of these female superhero movies, is that they don't have likeable male characters in them. If you want to attract men, you need male characters in these kind of films that they can identify with. Often, men in these films (villains, boyfriends, etc...) are kind of wimpy. The Dark Knight Rises and the Amazing Spider-Man both had very likeable and strong female characters (Catwoman and Gwen Stacy). Female superhero movies need to find that same kind of balance, but in reverse, so that male audiences can identify with the male characters.

 

[Christopher]

^Speak for yourself. I don't need a character to be the same gender, race, or whatever as myself in order to identify with them.

 

[Neroon]

Why the automatic assumption that ....

Mars, remember to use the multi-quote button and / or the edit function, when you find different posts to which you wish to reply.

 

[Mars]

The real problem, for me, with a lot of these female superhero movies, is that they don't have likeable male characters in them. If you want to attract men, you need male characters in these kind of films that they can identify with. Often, men in these films (villains, boyfriends, etc...) are kind of wimpy. The Dark Knight Rises and the Amazing Spider-Man both had very likeable and strong female characters (Catwoman and Gwen Stacy). Female superhero movies need to find that same kind of balance, but in reverse, so that male audiences can identify with the male characters.

Let me suggest Hercules for Supergirl. One could make a likable character out of Hercules after all, they made a television series based on him. In DC Hercules comes from the same background as Wonder Woman thus pairing up Superman to Wonder Woman would be the equivalent to pairing Hercules to Supergirl. Hercules could hold his own in a fight, thus Supergirl would not always be rescuing him all the time. That's one suggestion. Another possibility might be a relative of Lex Luthor, if Lex had a rebellious son for example who doesn't always agree with his dad, but has some of his abilities to build gadgets for example, he might make an interesting partner for Supergirl.

 

[the G-man]

Yet Perez's tenure, which was the definite run on the book for around twenty years didn't sell all that well.

My recollection, at least when Perez was writing and drawing the book, was that it was a top seller.

 

[Captain Atkin]

^Speak for yourself. I don't need a character to be the same gender, race, or whatever as myself in order to identify with them.

I never said that I could not relate to characters like Supergirl or Wonder-Woman. What I was stating is that most men want to see male characters in films that they can also relate too as well. That doesn't mean that men can't relate to the female heroes in the films, and I don't know where you got that from in my post.

I love Supergirl, but if you look at the original film, there was no likeable male characters in the film, save for Peter O'Toole's fatherly figure. Studios make superhero movies to attract a wide audience, so that they can make profit. If you alienate a demographic of people by not featuring them, or having characters they can't relate too, then you loose potential revenue. I wasn't suggesting that males couldn't relate to characters like Supergirl; it was that these films often portray males in a weak/negative light. The fact is, many people do need characters that they can relate too, and that is why female superhero movies tend to not do as well as male superhero films at the box office.

 

[Mike Farley]

Yet Perez's tenure, which was the definite run on the book for around twenty years didn't sell all that well.

My recollection, at least when Perez was writing and drawing the book, was that it was a top seller.

I always thought it was too. My assumption would be that sales fell after Perez stopped actually penciling the book.

 

[Christopher]

The fact is, many people do need characters that they can relate too, and that is why female superhero movies tend to not do as well as male superhero films at the box office.

And that's what's wrong with the world -- the inability of so many people to relate to those who are not like themselves. It's nothing to be proud of.

 

[Captain Atkin]

The fact is, many people do need characters that they can relate too, and that is why female superhero movies tend to not do as well as male superhero films at the box office.

And that's what's wrong with the world -- the inability of so many people to relate to those who are not like themselves. It's nothing to be proud of.

I don't think you quite get what I am saying, so let me put it to you another way. Live-action films like Supergirl, Electra, and Catwoman often have male characters that are poorly written, and not fleshed out enough to make an impact on male viewers. They are often written in a way that makes them boring as hell. Males tend to not like these secondary male characters because of the bad writting, and thus cannot relate to them. This doesn't mean that the males watching these films can't relate to the female heros. Logically, the reason they are even in the theatre is to watch those female heros. But when male roles are written poorly, it tends to turn men off from watching those movies more than once. The box office numbers don't lie.

 

[Christopher]

^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?

 

[Captain Atkin]

^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?

The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?

The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.

Supergirl tanked for all sorts of reasons that had nothing to do with male/female dynamic. Electra failed for all sorts of reasons, too. I can't speak about the others in your list because I haven't seen them, however cursory research indicates that while a critical failure, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider was a box office success. I don't believe you've demonstrated that lack of male/female dynamic was a problem with those films.

 

[Christopher]

^That's true, although I'd hardly count Lara Croft as a superhero.

Part of the problem is that there are so few female-led superhero movies that there simply isn't a large enough sample size to base any statistically meaningful analyses on. So the real question that needs to be asked isn't "What's wrong with female-led superhero movies?" but "Why are there still so few of them?" I mean, we've had strong female action heroes for decades now, from Ripley and Sarah Connor to Evelyn Salt and the leads of the Underworld and Resident Evil franchises. So obviously action movies with female leads can succeed. Which makes the lack of such movies in the superhero subgenre in particular something of an anomaly.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I think its going to take a female superhero who is completely a standalone character to be a success. Both Supergirl and Electra are spinoff of male characters. I am not saying a good spinoff or supporting female in a lead role can not be well made. But to have big impact and be embraced.

All of the non-superhero female leads listed are not cousins or girlfriends of other more well known characters.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Wow. You guys have really taken this thread off topic...I really made a mistake calling it what I did. We're going to need some actual news from the Lost City of Krypton DTV to change the topic back! LOL

 

[Christopher]

I think its going to take a female superhero who is completely a standalone character to be a success. Both Supergirl and Electra are spinoff of male characters. I am not saying a good spinoff or supporting female in a lead role can not be well made. But to have big impact and be embraced.

All of the non-superhero female leads listed are not cousins or girlfriends of other more well known characters.

The problem is, there aren't that many female superheroes who aren't either spinoffs of male superheroes or members of teams. Wonder Woman is the main one who comes to mind. The others are generally not very well-known. Amethyst? Dazzler? Hellcat?

Still, I think it's oversimplistic to say that spinoff characters can never succeed. Again, we simply don't have a large enough sample set to draw any reliable conclusions about cause and effect. I mean, sure, the Halle Berry Catwoman movie bombed, but that was because it was an incredibly bad movie. I bet an Anne Hathaway Catwoman movie, spinning off the version of Selina from The Dark Knight Rises, would do tons better. Catwoman is a character who's largely transcended her spinoff origins to become one of DC's major solo heroines, despite technically being part of the extended Batman family. She-Hulk is a popular character who's become very distinct from her male counterpart, having her own adventures in their own separate style and being a major standalone character despite her origins. You could say much the same about Carol Danvers, who was originally a distaff knockoff of Captain Marvel, but now is Captain Marvel.

EDIT: Okay, I'm trying to compile of list of movies about solo female comic-book heroes. What I can come up with are:

Barbarella
Barb Wire
Catwoman
Elektra
Red Sonja
Sheena
Supergirl
Tank Girl

There's also Josie and the Pussycats, but I'm not sure if they count as action heroes.

Now, all of those movies were critical or box-office failures, as far as I'm aware, but at least half of them were characters that weren't spinoffs of male protagonists. So I don't think that holds up as a determining factor.

And it is a pretty small sample size -- eight or at most nine movies in the past 45 years. Now, there have been literally tens of thousands of movies made in that span of time, and I think it's safe to say that a sizeable majority have been mediocre to poor, since bad movies always outnumber good. So if you pick any eight movies at random out of that set of tens of thousands or more, there's a very good chance that you'll pick eight failures. Which is why I don't think the sample size is large enough to conclude that the gender of the heroines, or their relationship to male heroes, or any particular thing is a causative factor. Statistically speaking, there's no pattern that's provably distinct from random chance. Except the pattern that disproportionately few female-led comic-book movies are being made in the first place.

 

[Captain Atkin]

^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?

The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.

Supergirl tanked for all sorts of reasons that had nothing to do with male/female dynamic. Electra failed for all sorts of reasons, too. I can't speak about the others in your list because I haven't seen them, however cursory research indicates that while a critical failure, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider was a box office success. I don't believe you've demonstrated that lack of male/female dynamic was a problem with those films.

Off the top of your head, without cheating, try to name one male character from any of those films I listed.

 

[Christopher]

Jimmy Olsen.