Pretty much agree entirely.
Pretty much agree entirely.
Of the franchise?? That's absolutely perposterous. I'd argue it's still better than 5 of TNG's seasons , half of DS9, and the entirety of everything else.
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Still trying to pinpoint the third season "difference"
- Thread starter Talos IV
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Pretty much agree entirely.
Pretty much agree entirely.
Of the franchise?? That's absolutely perposterous. I'd argue it's still better than 5 of TNG's seasons , half of DS9, and the entirety of everything else.
I've got some forced downtime right now. And it's been one of those kinds of days (yay!), so I might as well watch the last few S2 episodes and the first few S3 episodes, and see what I notice.
Agreed. Heck, I’d trade everything after TOS for 13 episodes of the aborted 70’s series, and it likely would’ve been far shakier than season three.
TAF - good premise, not the best script. Premise alone only goes so far next to whole productions. There are many in season 3 that are better and more well-rounded stories, and based on premise alone a person's soul trapped in another's body seems far more harrowing than being driven nuts by one's own knowledge. At least by comparison, as far as a premise goes, both are good and both had stinky scripts to play with the premise with. But any old show can detail a person going nuts due to any reason. Only sci-fi can play with the high concept goodness of body swapping, making it that much more creative from the get-go.
First, there are really two second seasons of TOS. The Gene Coon second season and the John Meredyth Lucas second season. Coon S2 has a lot more humor than Lucas S2. Coon S2 in general has more comedy and action-adventure. Not that Lucas S2 doesn't have action-adventure, but you start seeing episodes like "Return to Tomorrow" which feels a lot more "sci-fi" than a lot of the rest of S2 and gets back to the galaxy feeling wondrous. The galaxy also doesn't feel like it revolves around the Federation in "Return to Tomorrow" and Sargon makes the Enterprise crew feel like the Johnny Come Lately it really is. "By Any Other Name" is the same, when Kelvans take over the Enterprise, modify it, and set course back for Andromeda. It feels more space-y.
This must've around the time Gene Roddenberry started thinking, "We should take the series back toward a more hard sci-fi, mind-bending direction". These two episodes seem to be the point where Gene Roddenberry must've found out what to focus on after Gene L Coon left. John Meredyth Lucas might've been gotten the ball rolling toward this change in direction, but it's Gene Roddenberry who must've decided, "I want to grab this by the horns", and thought, "I'll do it myself!" after John Meredyth Lucas decided not to return for the third season. He was excited, which is why he felt so crushed and so deflated when NBC said "We're moving you to Friday Nights at 10:00!" The bubble just burst, it must've hurt, and he probably felt, "That's it, I'm done." And brought in Fred Freigberger.
So that's the context I've got myself mentally in, before I start watching the last batch of Season 2. So I have to go back further than I intended. I'm starting with "Return to Tomorrow". I really think after this episode, Gene Roddenberry decided "Let's do more like that!" but the other surrounding scripts were already in development, so he had to wait until next season to really be able to get that going.
"Return to Tomorrow"
"Return to Tomorrow" was written by John T. Dugan and was re-written by Gene Roddenberry. Memory Alpha link. You can see it most evidently in how Sargon and Thalassa's marriage and how Sargon (The Kirk of his world) is married to Thalassa, Gene's dream woman: smart and attractive at the same time. And in Sargon's warning to Kirk that his people survived their own version of a primitive nuclear age just like Earth did but there was another Crisis that all civilizations must face that the Federation hasn't faced yet. Advancing to the point of thinking of yourself as Gods. Which Gene Roddenberry seemed to view as an end to civilization. Maybe because beings powerful enough to destroy everything destroyed each other. I don't know, that's open speculation on my part. But you have, in Sargon's people, a warning to Humanity of what their future might be like if they're not careful.
The story was pitched during Coon's time, then Roddenberry and Lucas did heavy revisions. John Dugan wanted Sargon and Thelasa to continue to exist as spirits after they died. But Gene Roddenberry was against the concept of spirits or afterlife, while Dugan was deeply religious. He didn't like that Sargon and Thelasa went into oblivion so he went by his pen name, John Kingsbridge, instead. This feels like an episode Gene Roddenberry really gravitated towards, so it gradually became more his episode. Dugan must've hated when Gene Roddenberry added in the line "We dared think ourselves as Gods" as if Gods were a bad thing.
Joe Penvey was slated to direct this episode but he quit the series after the actors became too uncontrollable after Gene L. Coon left. Maybe because -- as someone with such a sense of humor -- Coon knew how to deal with actors being actors who were goofing off and other people didn't know how to deal with them as well, so the actors became even worse. Ralph Senesky directed this episode instead. This might've been the point where he started wanting to add more of his own touch. And one of those touches was immediately noticeable in the back-lighting. The transporter room has a purple back-light in "Return to Tomorrow" and then later, in the third season, its walls on that set are permanently painted purple. In the briefing room, the greens in the back-lighting really pop out. Gone is using the color to highlight. They flood the walls with color and they want to give each set its own tone and feel. They're customizing the ship more with the lighting.
George Duning composed the soundtrack for this episode. He also provided original music for: "Metamorphosis" (S2), "Patterns of Force" (S2), "And the Children Shall Lead" (S3), "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" (S3), and "The Empath" (S3). "Metamorphosis" sounds a lot more emotional, romantic, and intense than a lot of other S2 episodes. "By Another Other Name" feels the same way, and adds wonder to it. All of the third season episodes that Duning composed really feel like the Core Season 3 Music. He wants you to feel the music. It conveys a lot of mood that dialogue can't. It feels a lot more serious but also ethereal and has a weight to it.
"Patterns of Force"
Next episode I'm watching is "Patterns of Force". This was originally going to be a first season episode called "Tomorrow the Universe". (Memory Alpha link). John Meredyth Lucas wrote a different version in the second season, which was used instead. It has a lot of stock second season music, so George Duning didn't provide that much music. There's a good combination of S1 and S2 music. And this is another one of those Parallel Earth stories with the character of John Gill recreating Nazi Germany. And there's a ton of location shooting. Then you have the end of the episode, with Spock and McCoy arguing about the history of mankind, and Kirk lightheartedly interrupting with a joke and the end. So this episode is as far from the third season as you can get. In fact, I'd even say this feels more like a late first season episode.
Taking a break there.
This must've around the time Gene Roddenberry started thinking, "We should take the series back toward a more hard sci-fi, mind-bending direction". These two episodes seem to be the point where Gene Roddenberry must've found out what to focus on after Gene L Coon left. John Meredyth Lucas might've been gotten the ball rolling toward this change in direction, but it's Gene Roddenberry who must've decided, "I want to grab this by the horns", and thought, "I'll do it myself!" after John Meredyth Lucas decided not to return for the third season. He was excited, which is why he felt so crushed and so deflated when NBC said "We're moving you to Friday Nights at 10:00!" The bubble just burst, it must've hurt, and he probably felt, "That's it, I'm done." And brought in Fred Freigberger.
So that's the context I've got myself mentally in, before I start watching the last batch of Season 2. So I have to go back further than I intended. I'm starting with "Return to Tomorrow". I really think after this episode, Gene Roddenberry decided "Let's do more like that!" but the other surrounding scripts were already in development, so he had to wait until next season to really be able to get that going.
"Return to Tomorrow"
"Return to Tomorrow" was written by John T. Dugan and was re-written by Gene Roddenberry. Memory Alpha link. You can see it most evidently in how Sargon and Thalassa's marriage and how Sargon (The Kirk of his world) is married to Thalassa, Gene's dream woman: smart and attractive at the same time. And in Sargon's warning to Kirk that his people survived their own version of a primitive nuclear age just like Earth did but there was another Crisis that all civilizations must face that the Federation hasn't faced yet. Advancing to the point of thinking of yourself as Gods. Which Gene Roddenberry seemed to view as an end to civilization. Maybe because beings powerful enough to destroy everything destroyed each other. I don't know, that's open speculation on my part. But you have, in Sargon's people, a warning to Humanity of what their future might be like if they're not careful.
The story was pitched during Coon's time, then Roddenberry and Lucas did heavy revisions. John Dugan wanted Sargon and Thelasa to continue to exist as spirits after they died. But Gene Roddenberry was against the concept of spirits or afterlife, while Dugan was deeply religious. He didn't like that Sargon and Thelasa went into oblivion so he went by his pen name, John Kingsbridge, instead. This feels like an episode Gene Roddenberry really gravitated towards, so it gradually became more his episode. Dugan must've hated when Gene Roddenberry added in the line "We dared think ourselves as Gods" as if Gods were a bad thing.
Joe Penvey was slated to direct this episode but he quit the series after the actors became too uncontrollable after Gene L. Coon left. Maybe because -- as someone with such a sense of humor -- Coon knew how to deal with actors being actors who were goofing off and other people didn't know how to deal with them as well, so the actors became even worse. Ralph Senesky directed this episode instead. This might've been the point where he started wanting to add more of his own touch. And one of those touches was immediately noticeable in the back-lighting. The transporter room has a purple back-light in "Return to Tomorrow" and then later, in the third season, its walls on that set are permanently painted purple. In the briefing room, the greens in the back-lighting really pop out. Gone is using the color to highlight. They flood the walls with color and they want to give each set its own tone and feel. They're customizing the ship more with the lighting.
George Duning composed the soundtrack for this episode. He also provided original music for: "Metamorphosis" (S2), "Patterns of Force" (S2), "And the Children Shall Lead" (S3), "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" (S3), and "The Empath" (S3). "Metamorphosis" sounds a lot more emotional, romantic, and intense than a lot of other S2 episodes. "By Another Other Name" feels the same way, and adds wonder to it. All of the third season episodes that Duning composed really feel like the Core Season 3 Music. He wants you to feel the music. It conveys a lot of mood that dialogue can't. It feels a lot more serious but also ethereal and has a weight to it.
"Patterns of Force"
Next episode I'm watching is "Patterns of Force". This was originally going to be a first season episode called "Tomorrow the Universe". (Memory Alpha link). John Meredyth Lucas wrote a different version in the second season, which was used instead. It has a lot of stock second season music, so George Duning didn't provide that much music. There's a good combination of S1 and S2 music. And this is another one of those Parallel Earth stories with the character of John Gill recreating Nazi Germany. And there's a ton of location shooting. Then you have the end of the episode, with Spock and McCoy arguing about the history of mankind, and Kirk lightheartedly interrupting with a joke and the end. So this episode is as far from the third season as you can get. In fact, I'd even say this feels more like a late first season episode.
Taking a break there.
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So your sympathies were with . . . .
I like all three seasons for different reasons. Same with the six movies. But if you held a gun to my head and forced me to choose one and one only, I'd go with the second season as my favorite. I thought it had the best balance and the characters were the most in their element.
On another note: What the Hell am I doing up at 4:30 AM?
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The reason a lot of us were never sure about it is that sunlight is the big "tell" when it comes to spotting the fake outdoors, and "All Our Yesterdays" had Shatner out there awfully late in the day. But it was still worth going out for the cool buildings and street details.
I often see these two conflated, but they were separate stories dealing with similar ground (space nazis!).
"Tomorrow The Universe" was still being written in March of 1967, weeks after season one had wrapped. I doubt it was ever seriously considered for use during the first season, especially given the problems they had with the writer (Paul Schneider) on previous scripts that required significant rewriting (at least as the staff characterized it in memos at the time).
Also, it's TERRIBLE. Would have been a disaster of they went ahead and shot it.
As far as the downplaying of humor in season 3, I never mean to imply that it got dour and gloomy. But that familiar banter, that casual chit chat Kirk had with the crew, was pulled back from. Even in "Spectre of the Gun," the first episode produced for the year, Kirk is calling Spock by his job title. Some of that, I imagine, was to clue in people who may have been new to the series, but I can also see the return to a formality the series had lost over time. Star Trek always had humor, but with Coon, it was elevated. And once he left, it fell back again. Lucas liked the military "war games" aspect of the series and seemed to want to get to that. The Ultimate Computer, for example, played up Kirk's insecurities in a way we hadn't seen in a while. I would have enjoyed a JML produced third season, it was a shame he wasn't asked to take it over.
I honestly don't think it was the bad time slot or depressed actors. Humor is written into the scripts and the directors have a hand in it. From what I've read, Shatner was always full of energy, and was the one person really holding everyone together that year. Even the actors who didn't like him have been quoted as saying it.
Apparently, Roddenberry didn't like the overly light direction the series had taken and brought it back to where he wanted it when Coon left. And once Roddenberry himself had truly split later in the 3rd season, it really became a Freiberger series. He seemed to have a sense of humor, but one different from Coon's. I think, considering how short he was on time, money and writing staff, he did the best he could. I wish I could have met him...
I honestly don't think it was the bad time slot or depressed actors. Humor is written into the scripts and the directors have a hand in it. From what I've read, Shatner was always full of energy, and was the one person really holding everyone together that year. Even the actors who didn't like him have been quoted as saying it.
Apparently, Roddenberry didn't like the overly light direction the series had taken and brought it back to where he wanted it when Coon left. And once Roddenberry himself had truly split later in the 3rd season, it really became a Freiberger series. He seemed to have a sense of humor, but one different from Coon's. I think, considering how short he was on time, money and writing staff, he did the best he could. I wish I could have met him...
I think S3 was as "hard sci-if" as TOS got. It really went for some bold concepts. I love it for that, even though it means there were occasional swings-and-misses.
S2 on the other hand, had too many "parallel Earth" gimmicks that started to wear thin. Nazi Planet, Gangster Planet, Rome Planet, etc....
S2 on the other hand, had too many "parallel Earth" gimmicks that started to wear thin. Nazi Planet, Gangster Planet, Rome Planet, etc....
Yeah, the pre and post Coon episodes were a little more high concept (obviously I am generalizing as there always exceptions). The early first season as a series finding its way and using established science fiction writers who would pitch mind bending concepts. The Coon era was a show that found a comfortable format with a well tuned staff. The later episodes were done by outsiders of the series, people with good and not so good SF ideas. It became more about the concepts than the characters. I love all three years, but there's something about the third season's direction that appeals to me.
I think it's overstating it to say Roddenberry was excited to come back for the 3rd season. Also, given the way script assignments were given out I suspect many of the stories Lucas produced were assigned in the Coon era. I'll have to look at the writers reports to see what's what and assigned by when.
The writers reports are missing for season two, at least at UCLA, but there are enough other memos tracking story development that there's a pretty good picture of what was assigned before Coon left.
From memory, most of the shows were at least in story at that point, but I'd have to double check.
Oh that's right. I keep forgetting that the reports are all S1.
At USC, there are definitely memos tracking story development for the episodes for which George Duning composed the music (seasons 2 and 3). I reviewed this material in 1985 - copying wasn't allowed, only note-taking in pencil - and as best I can determine online, the Duning papers are still archived at the USC library.
The episodes for which Duning wrote music include one from the Coon period, two from the Lucas period, and three from the third season (with story memos from Roddenberry and, I think, Justman - I haven't seen my pencil notes in a long time).
The episodes for which Duning wrote music include one from the Coon period, two from the Lucas period, and three from the third season (with story memos from Roddenberry and, I think, Justman - I haven't seen my pencil notes in a long time).
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It's strange that Gene Coon wasn't retained for the whole of season two and Meredyth Lucas for the third rather than Coon departing half way through! I'm taking it that his original contract was up and he'd had his fil?
JB
JB
Coon broke his contract to leave. And Lucas had an option in his contract to return for season 3, but elected not to.
Do we know why? Was it Roddenberry? Paramount?
It was for better $$$.
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