Still No DSC Casting Announcement for New Captain?

[Ithekro]

Well Enterprise can't jump 30,000 light years in a reasonable period on time. Discovery can. Captain Pike is already acknowledge, in show, to be one of Starfleet's most decorated starship captains. He likely has whatever pull he wants right now. Add to this the Constitution-class appears to be the class of ship to be on if you want to be somebody in Starfleet, than Captain Christopher Pike has the choice assignment right now as captain of the USS Enterprise. A decade or so later, when Kirk's in command, it might not be as much of a prestige ship, but still enough to earn significant mention with other ranking Starfleet officers and former Starfleet personal. Take it another two decades and it just an older ship. Still useful in the fleet, but not the front line starship class anymore. One more decade after that, then they are seemingly being retired after 50 or more years of service as a class.

 

[eschaton]

If you noted I said in relationship to Worf. And Worf was in that episode. I can appreciate some of the individual episodes, but as a culture as whole? No thank you.

But Worf was in more Trek episodes than any other single character. So of course virtually everything that was done in Trek during the Berman era was in relation to him. Particularly because the writers of Voyager made the decision to make Torres very "estranged" from her Klingon side, meaning it was only really explored in a handful of episodes.

I mean, you could also argue that Trek had very few Vulcan episodes which weren't in relation to Spock, Tuvok, or T'Pol - and that those which lacked those three characters were very shallow (like say the Vulcan depictions on DS9). And you'd be correct.

 

[fireproof78]

But Worf was in more Trek episodes than any other single character. So of course virtually everything that was done in Trek during the Berman era was in relation to him. Particularly because the writers of Voyager made the decision to make Torres very "estranged" from her Klingon side, meaning it was only really explored in a handful of episodes.

I don't feel I am articulating myself very well. Suffice to say that there were brief individual moments, often connected with Worf (and Martok falls in that category for me) where Klingon culture felt like a culture. The rest of the time it felt very monolithic and not engaging.

 

[Vger23]

I don't feel I am articulating myself very well. Suffice to say that there were brief individual moments, often connected with Worf (and Martok falls in that category for me) where Klingon culture felt like a culture. The rest of the time it felt very monolithic and not engaging.

I agree 100%. The Klingon stories in TNG and DS9, for the most part, bored the daylights out of me.

 

[plynch]

I was taught that shame/honor cultures often have less formalized law and order (codes, courts, universal enforcement). Maintaining honor is really "saving face" (a phrase taken from culture I cannot recall) or status/power in the eyes of the community or other houses or nobles or whatever. If I am publicly offended or humiliated, I must have satisfaction, that is, take steps to avenge my "honor." OR, more people will perceive weakness and quickly hurt or humiliate me more. My status/power can quickly erode if I or my patron doesn't defend my honor, even if not successfully. A future offender at least knows I will pick up my batleth, dueling pistol, lawsuit, twitter account, whatever. It's better if I win, of course.

I was taught in seminary that what would've been offensive to contemporary readers or hearers of the gospel was not that Jesus was crucified. Life was tough and people got killed. It was the public humiliation, the being-spat-on, mocking-crown-of-thorns, insults, with no satisfaction/restoration of honor (retribution/vengeance). Especially since his patron was supposed to be YHWH, god of heaven and earth: to not have one's patron come to one's defense: horrifying! And by association to bring shame to that patron. Yish! It would have been very sickening to people in that culture supposedly.

As the story goes, of course, three days later, honor is restored in the highest possible sense.

And as you might already know, yes, I can't stand Klingon episodes. There are some bright spots rarely. In DS9 there was the Colicos/Ansara/Campbell ep where they actually seem like real people. Though they STILL say "honor" way too much. It could be a drinking game during Klingon eps.

 

[fireproof78]

Though they STILL say "honor" way too much. It could be a drinking game during Klingon eps.

Klingons would approve of this. Also, it would probably kill someone so I don't recommend it.

 

[eschaton]

I don't feel I am articulating myself very well. Suffice to say that there were brief individual moments, often connected with Worf (and Martok falls in that category for me) where Klingon culture felt like a culture. The rest of the time it felt very monolithic and not engaging.

But what I'm saying is that there are only a handful of Berman-era "Klingon episodes" (TNG's A Matter of Honor, VOY's Barge of The Dead, DS9's Blood Oath, ENT's Judgement, etc) which didn't involve Worf. I mean, Worf was in 11 out of the 25 seasons of Berman-era Trek, so by definition you'd expect that most Klingon stories involved him in some way unless they happened to be on VOY or ENT (which were overall mediocre at everything, not just Klingons).

Regardless, what alien culture do you think that Trek has done a better job fleshing out? I'd argue maybe Cardassians on DS9, but that's about it.

 

[fireproof78]

Regardless, what alien culture do you think that Trek has done a better job fleshing out? I'd argue maybe Cardassians on DS9, but that's about it.

I would make an argument for the Cardassians and the Bajorans. Now, largely this is a function of the setting, since DS9 didn't go any where and was able to unpack a lot of cultural details. I love seeing Garak and his unpacking of his relationship with other Cardassians. I like seeing the political maneuvering and changes.

My struggle with Klingons is how often they are one note. It's about honor and that's it. It's about Worf colliding with the status quo again and that's it. It isn't a culture in that sense. Everything is about combat, glory and honor and violence. I can punch a guy and just say he spilled his drink on me and I wanted more blood wine.That's not interesting or engaging.

Also, I would argue that "Barge of the Dead" was a decent Klingon episode, one that I enjoyed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Cardassians are what the TNG+ Klingons should have been. They are a logical evolution from what we saw in TOS.

 

[eschaton]

The Cardassians are what the TNG+ Klingons should have been. They are a logical evolution from what we saw in TOS.

Nah. The Cardassians are the Romulans. Brutal, paranoid authoritarian state with an all-powerful spy corp.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nah. The Cardassians are the Romulans. Brutal, paranoid authoritarian state with an all-powerful spy corp.

I think that fits the TOS Klingons as well.

KOR: Today we conquer. If some day we are defeated, well, war has its fortunes good and bad. Do you know why we are so strong? Because we are a unit. Each of us is part of the greater whole, always under surveillance. Even a commander like myself, always under surveillance, Captain. If you will note.

 

[Timo]

"We are all about work and discipline and devotion to the Empire" is probably the fallback self-description of any Klingon who has been disgraced. Klag, the son of a shamed prisoner, used that one, too...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Greg Cox]

In reality, the Klingons and the Romulans kinda flipped places over the years. On TOS, the Romulans were the "honorable" foes--as embodied by Mark Lenard in "Balance of Terror" and the female commander in "The Enterprise Incident," while the Klingons were the ruthless, sneaky bad guys who were forever up to no good. .

Later, however, the Romulans became the Klingons and the Klingons became the Romulans, compete with cloaking devices.

 

[Longinus]

In reality, the Klingons and the Romulans kinda flipped places over the years. On TOS, the Romulans were the "honorable" foes--as embodied by Mark Lenard in "Balance of Terror" and the female commander in "The Enterprise Incident," while the Klingons were the ruthless, sneaky bad guys who were forever up to no good. .

Later, however, the Romulans became the Klingons and the Klingons became the Romulans, compete with cloaking devices.

Whist there is some truth in that, it is still an oversimplification. Klingons were always ruthless and bloodthirsty, even i later iterations. Romulans are kinda weird though, even though they're considered one of the major ST races, we actually know quite a little about them and I'm not sure what they're really supposed to be about. It is true tat Klingos kinda stole their honour angle and Cardassians stole the sneakiness...

 

[XCV330]

Whist there is some truth in that, it is still an oversimplification. Klingons were always ruthless and bloodthirsty, even i later iterations. Romulans are kinda weird though, even though they're considered one of the major ST races, we actually know quite a little about them and I'm not sure what they're really supposed to be about. It is true tat Klingos kinda stole their honour angle and Cardassians stole the sneakiness...

Romulans have an honor code, just as the Federation and Klingons do, it's just very different from either.
It seemed in TOS that the Klingons were the stand-in for Evil Statist Eastern European/Asian Folks. Romulans were a bit different. They were the enemy but they were throwbacks to ancient Rome (I guess they could have named their homeworld Planet Obvious but they stuck with Romulus). The idea of Romulans as a well organized, traditional, but highly advanced Roman versions of Klingons was pretty interesting. In TNG and beyond they got watered down and generic.

 

[eschaton]

Romulans have an honor code, just as the Federation and Klingons do, it's just very different from either.
It seemed in TOS that the Klingons were the stand-in for Evil Statist Eastern European/Asian Folks. Romulans were a bit different. They were the enemy but they were throwbacks to ancient Rome (I guess they could have named their homeworld Planet Obvious but they stuck with Romulus). The idea of Romulans as a well organized, traditional, but highly advanced Roman versions of Klingons was pretty interesting. In TNG and beyond they got watered down and generic.

Romulans were apparently almost the antagonists of STIII and Insurrection. Supposedly there were plans to potentially have T'Rul become a recurring character on DS9 as well, though the decision to cast the actress as Seska on VOY may have killed this.

 

[Timo]

What's this honor the Romulans are supposedly guilty of? In all three of their TOS appearances (two of which involved actual characters), they were deceitful schemers engaging in underhanded tricks: invisible ships performing surprise first strikes (and then trying to escape with the help of dirty moves such as hiding mines in jetsam), or ambushing of starships on missions of mercy or madness. And while they were at it, they backstabbed and betrayed, competing with each other at the expense of patriotic duty and the best interests of the Empire, drinking and almost sleeping with the enemy, bribing and blackmailing, and then defecting.

The one reputedly "honorable" Romulan spent his time griping about and indeed undermining his own mission which he felt was against his personal interests... Even going as far as blowing himself up when it appeared his assigned mission of igniting a war might otherwise succeed. (And if honor be defined as working for the enemy, then that part certainly didn't change when the Romulans returned in TNG and DS9.)

Timo Saloniemi