"Stigma": A Harbinger of the Death of Trek

[Kegek]

Captain X said:
JUst thinking of a couple off the top of my head, both Strange New World and Shuttlepod One were much better than Dear Doctor, even if they weren't "issue" episodes. To me, Dear Doctor was up there with Stigma as an example of what was wrong with ENT.

They weren't issue episodes, but they weren't great either. I'd qualify them both as two okay episodes from the first season, but not nearly as interesting as "Dear Doctor".

Anyway, the "Dear Doctor" approach to morality is hardly confined to ENT, nor was it more heavy handed than it was on TNG or VOY, say. While I don't think those shows had as much of the same problem with simple, straightforward stupidity that ENT had. This was one of the few episodes of ENT's first season - or any season - to tackle a moral issue and, unlike "Detained" and "Desert Crossing", it made a serious and reasonable effort to show both sides of the coin in the argument. And unlike "Stigma", it did have intelligence.

Personally, I'll take Phlox arguing his ethical stance to Archer, however reprehensible I might find it, over Malcolm fantasizing about T'Pol calling him "Stinky". Most of ENT's best episodes are light, escapist fare - like most of the excellent S4 trilogies. I think this is the one episode that tackled a more serious issue and came off best, which is why I consider it the best episode of the series.

I probably should also mention that Phlox was the one character who was a real improvement over his predecessor. Most of the ENT crew were clearly modelled on one or more characters from past ST shows - mainly TOS (as in the Archer, T'Pol and Trip triad with the supporting minority cast) but also VOY (Seven and Neelix being T'Pol and Phlox). While some of the characters turned out okay and quite interesting, Phlox was a distinct improvement over Neelix - Neelix as he should have been, really.

 

[galleywest]

CaptainHawk1 said:

Jack Bauer said:
After all this time there's really nothing new to be said in order to raise awareness of AIDS. There's nothing more to be said on that subject other than to repeat it over and over until it penetrates the skulls of those who are still completely ignorant of the issue.

You mean like the entire continent of Africa south of the Sahara?

Regardless, this episode did nothing to further awareness of AIDS and that wasn't even what it was trying to do.

But I guess I'm beating a dead horse on this because as usual people keep commenting without reading my original post or subsequent posts.

So just keep trying to be sarcastic and cute instead of actually commenting on what I said.

Good for you. :thumbsup:
You're clever.
It must be nice.

-Shawn

Most people have been commenting on topic, with the possible exception of the Dear Doctor like/hate arguing. There's no need to attack people you feel aren't commenting on the issue the way you want them to. Knock it off.

 

[Captain X]

Kalen Archer said:
Captain X, just remember that your opinion is just that - your opinion. Apart from the last line in the second post, your posts give the impression that you feel that your opinion is final. Remember that the opinions of others, such as Kegek, are equally valid to yours.

No shit.

Kegek said:
They weren't issue episodes, but they weren't great either. I'd qualify them both as two okay episodes from the first season, but not nearly as interesting as "Dear Doctor".

Dear Doctor was interesting only insofar as how appalling an episode of Star Trek could be. But then I actually liked those episodes, even if I do call them on their flaws, simply because it's the best we've gotten since DS9 went off the air.

Anyway, the "Dear Doctor" approach to morality is hardly confined to ENT, nor was it more heavy handed than it was on TNG or VOY, say. While I don't think those shows had as much of the same problem with simple, straightforward stupidity that ENT had. This was one of the few episodes of ENT's first season - or any season - to tackle a moral issue and, unlike "Detained" and "Desert Crossing", it made a serious and reasonable effort to show both sides of the coin in the argument. And unlike "Stigma", it did have intelligence.

It might have showed both sides, but it didn't show them well, and essentially used the way the Valakians treated the Menk to justify withholding the insta-cure Phlox had developed, thus condemning the Valakians to extinction. Well, that and the mornic PD attitude of somehow not "playing God", despite the fact that these aliens went looking for help all on their own and just happened to find them. To me (as in saying In My Opinion), that is one of Star Trek's worst flaws as a whole, which is to preach entirely the wrong message while trying to convince us that it's the right message.

Personally, I'll take Phlox arguing his ethical stance to Archer, however reprehensible I might find it, over Malcolm fantasizing about T'Pol calling him "Stinky".

I guess I got the whole bonding thing between Trip and Malcolm, rather like Julian and Miles from Armageddon Game, out of that particuliar episode, which is why I like it.

Most of ENT's best episodes are light, escapist fare - like most of the excellent S4 trilogies.

Observer Effect was light and escapist? Similitude? Maybe most of Season 1 and 2 were like that, but I'd hardly designate Season 3 or 4 as light or escapist, with the exception of IaMD. But again, this is my opinion. Just so as everyone understands that.

I probably should also mention that Phlox was the one character who was a real improvement over his predecessor. Most of the ENT crew were clearly modelled on one or more characters from past ST shows - mainly TOS (as in the Archer, T'Pol and Trip triad with the supporting minority cast) but also VOY (Seven and Neelix being T'Pol and Phlox). While some of the characters turned out okay and quite interesting, Phlox was a distinct improvement over Neelix - Neelix as he should have been, really.

It's easy to tell that most of ENT had its base in VOY, but I look at the characters as they are on ENT. Phlox is alright, but Trip is by far my favorite, just like Miles was my favorite on DS9. He's an everyman, and easy to empathize with. In my opinion.

 

[Kegek]

Captain X said:
Observer Effect was light and escapist? Similitude? Maybe most of Season 1 and 2 were like that, but I'd hardly designate Season 3 or 4 as light or escapist, with the exception of IaMD.

I believe the key word was best. "Simulitude" was very solid, though it has similar moral problems to "Dear Doctor." I don't agree with the argument proposed, but it did manage a powerful and clever sci-fi analogy to the use of stem cells that simultaneously humanises them and calls for their destruction. To an extent it cops out by having Sim accept his fate, but it's a fairly solid outing. One episode does not a trend make, however.

"Observer Effect", aside from the confusing way in which the Organians were handled, was a clever episode but not one of the best.

I'd really consider the Augment Trilogy, the Vulcan Trilogy, and so on to be mainly escapist fare. Often their deeper concerns are very fanboyish (especially the Klingon Forehead Duology) and where they do have more obvious analogies - such as V'Las-to-Bush - it felt a tad trite.

It's easy to tell that most of ENT had its base in VOY, but I look at the characters as they are on ENT.

Actually, I'd really just say T'Pol and Phlox had their roots in VOY. The rest of the characters, including T'Pol, are reworked TOS. They flipped the races of the Helmsman and Communications Officer but not the gender, they have a trioka between the waspish Captain, his Vulcan science/first officer and a crochtedy Southerner... the only character who doesn't quite fit is Reed, although with his association with weapons and an old European empire he's arguably a heavily reworked Chekov.

Phlox is alright, but Trip is by far my favorite, just like Miles was my favorite on DS9. He's an everyman, and easy to empathize with. In my opinion.

Yes, he's an everyman and quite a strong character - the best of the main three. He even got one of S1's few good speeches, when he tells one of the emotional Vulcans about regret and how he still wished he'd asked this girl to dance.

And on the other hand, he could be plenty stupid and annoying. His subplot in "Stigma" is an excellent example. So is most of his mooning over the colourless T'Pol. Phlox can be stupid too, but less often...

 

[Captain X]

Kegek said:
I believe the key word was best. "Simulitude" was very solid, though it has similar moral problems to "Dear Doctor." I don't agree with the argument proposed, but it did manage a powerful and clever sci-fi analogy to the use of stem cells that simultaneously humanises them and calls for their destruction. To an extent it cops out by having Sim accept his fate, but it's a fairly solid outing. One episode does not a trend make, however.

"Observer Effect", aside from the confusing way in which the Organians were handled, was a clever episode but not one of the best.

Those are two of the best so far as I'm concerned, and those are only a couple off the top of my head.

such as V'Las-to-Bush - it felt a tad trite.

Heh, glad I'm not the only one that saw that.

And on the other hand, he could be plenty stupid and annoying. His subplot in "Stigma" is an excellent example.

Season 2 was espeically bad for Trip. Apparently to make Archer seem like a better character, they turned him into a bumbling comedy relief character.

So is pretty much the entirety of his mooning over the colourless T'Pol. Phlox can be stupid too, but less often...

You really wouldn't want to start me on that and how much I disagree with that. Besides, it'd be against the rules here.

 

[Kegek]

^
You started a Trip/T'Pol thread, I know you're a big fan. Good for you; but it wasn't exactly my cup of tea. And I'll leave that at that, per rules and all.

Honestly, I thought the whole V'Las thing was obvious. The Xindi weapons the Andorians allegedly had that they didn't... it wasn't the subtlest of analogies. It was okay, Trek's always about political analogies and all that (TNG did a rather intriguing, kind of amusing one on the IRA called "The High Ground"), but wasn't the best thing about those shows.

 

[Captain X]

Kegek said:
Honestly, I thought the whole V'Las thing was obvious. The Xindi weapons the Andorians allegedly had that they didn't... it wasn't the subtlest of analogies.

I thought so too, but the whole of SCN tried to tell me I was reading too much into it, and how it was supposed to be a reformation analogy and all. I saw otherwise, and I thought it was in poor taste, but whatever...

 

[Kegek]

Captain X said:

Kegek said:
Honestly, I thought the whole V'Las thing was obvious. The Xindi weapons the Andorians allegedly had that they didn't... it wasn't the subtlest of analogies.

I thought so too, but the whole of SCN tried to tell me I was reading too much into it, and how it was supposed to be a reformation analogy and all. I saw otherwise, and I thought it was in poor taste, but whatever...

The 'ancient texts rediscovered and definitively reinterpreted by an initially heretical group' bit was a reformation analogy. The V'Las thing was not. Like a lot of fiction, they mixed and meshed their analogies.

 

[angie]

I don't think intolerance is ever out-dated.TNG did do a similar ep and TOS had the famous black and white ep. The B storyline served many purposes among them contrasting an open society with a closed one. It also had Trip putting his morals on the Denobulans.Gay bashing happens in this country daily as does racism. The story was simplistic and anvil like in it's delivery but the beginning of the end was more founded in it's fear to go where no man had gone.

 

[LadyNRA]

I liked Stigma, I liked Dear Doctor...In fact, I liked most of Enterprises episodes. And the reason why is that I don't take either the writing or the show too seriously. It's entertainment, guys, pure and simple. Recite the mantra. This is just a show, just a show!

Enjoy it or not. Watch it or not.

I think -- "Okay, I got the message or the moral or the enjoyment" -- and then I wait on the next show.

 

[Pensive]

Stigma could have had the potential to be a better story, if it hadn't been a forced allegory for AIDS. It came up for that one episode with no visible symptoms previous. wtf.

And forgive my ignorance of 22nd century Vulcan medicine, but a FINGERPRINT was enough to get a full set of medical data from on a (basically) mental illness? whoa.

 

[Kalen Archer]

Captain X said:

Kalen Archer said:
Captain X, just remember that your opinion is just that - your opinion. Apart from the last line in the second post, your posts give the impression that you feel that your opinion is final. Remember that the opinions of others, such as Kegek, are equally valid to yours.

No shit.

There is no need to be so crude Captain X.

 

[Captain X]

I'm a crude person. I'm evil, you see, because I was raised by a Dutch family.

 

[pookha]

Pensive said:
Stigma could have had the potential to be a better story, if it hadn't been a forced allegory for AIDS. It came up for that one episode with no visible symptoms previous. wtf.

And forgive my ignorance of 22nd century Vulcan medicine, but a FINGERPRINT was enough to get a full set of medical data from on a (basically) mental illness? whoa.

you are constantly giving up cells. now if they had coated the padd to make it easier but they were scanning traces of her dna left on the padd.

 

[Captain X]

Yeah, but wouldn't they need a brain scan or something since the stuff is affecting her brain?

 

[pookha]

it did far more then just effect the brain.
it effects the entire neuro system also the immune and endocrine systems.
that could be enough to show up on a cellural scan.

 

[Pensive]

In cases like this, I fall back to my "It's Star Trek: don't question it!" mantra.

 

[Captain X]

I always question. For instance, aren't Vulcans supposed to be all about privacy? Yet here they went out of their way to invade T'Pol's privacy.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

galleywest said:

CaptainHawk1 said:

Jack Bauer said:
After all this time there's really nothing new to be said in order to raise awareness of AIDS. There's nothing more to be said on that subject other than to repeat it over and over until it penetrates the skulls of those who are still completely ignorant of the issue.

You mean like the entire continent of Africa south of the Sahara?

Regardless, this episode did nothing to further awareness of AIDS and that wasn't even what it was trying to do.

But I guess I'm beating a dead horse on this because as usual people keep commenting without reading my original post or subsequent posts.

So just keep trying to be sarcastic and cute instead of actually commenting on what I said.

Good for you. :thumbsup:
You're clever.
It must be nice.

-Shawn

Most people have been commenting on topic, with the possible exception of the Dear Doctor like/hate arguing. There's no need to attack people you feel aren't commenting on the issue the way you want them to. Knock it off.

Begging your pardon, but he was the second poster at this point in the discussion to not read the entire opening post and hence commented on exactly what the episode wasn't about (as I had pointed out twice up to this point). The episode was not about AIDS awareness, period. On top of that, he was sarcastic with his response. It's not a matter of not commenting the way I wanted him to, it's a matter of commenting on a different subject completely because he didn't read the post.

So basically he was rude on 2 points. First commenting on a post he hadn't read and second being sarcastic about it.

So again, begging your pardon, I'm within my rights to expect a little courtesy and to comment on it when there's none shown.

That was by no means an "attack." I didn't flame him but I did call him out for lack of etiquette and I simply repaid his sarcasm with the same amount he gave to me.

As for the Dear Doctor discussion that spawned off of this... big deal. It's directly related to the discussion at hand. I don't care where the discussion goes, but it absolutley drives me nuts when posters lack the courtesy to actually read the prior posts (especially the thread starter) and then make smart-ass comments unrelated to what they think they're commenting on.

I'm a little disturbed by the fact that over and over I'm noticing a disturbing trend of MOD's here that think that have to play referee for every little comment that somebody posts. If the rules of the forum aren't being violated, then you've got no busineess telling me or anyone what I can and cannot post or how my tone should be.

It's absolutely amazing to me that you called me out for my sarcasm but not the other guy!

-Shawn

 

[Kegek]

LadyNRA said:
I liked Stigma, I liked Dear Doctor...In fact, I liked most of Enterprises episodes. And the reason why is that I don't take either the writing or the show too seriously. It's entertainment, guys, pure and simple. Recite the mantra. This is just a show, just a show!

Hey, I know that. I'm not expecting Plato or Shakespeare, for god's sake. But I do have to admit I like Star Trek most for its moral-quandry-in-space plots like "The Measure of a Man" or poignant-character-development like "This Side of Paradise". I don't claim I'm sophisticated, intelligent or anything, I just want a modicum of intelligence from shows I watch (and I don't watch many). ENT wasn't and isn't the dumbest thing on the airwaves; but in that opening stretch of S2 it was clearly beneath my threshold.

Enjoy it or not. Watch it or not.

Agreed, which is why I stopped. But glad to see a lot of people did like the show. It found its niche, and given its improvements in the final season, it's a pity it was cancelled.