STID realistic?

[Crazy Eddie]

A fair example of something that is unbelievable in nuTrek is Kirk being promoted from a third year cadet to the Captain of the flagship of the Federation.

What's odd about that? Saavik apparently went from an officer cadet to chief science officer on USS Grissom. And she didn't even save the entire planet from a terrorist attack!

More to the point, the fact that Kirk kept screwing up is the main reason he wound up getting demoted. If Pike hadn't vouched for his abilities -- TWICE -- he never would have made it on the Enterprise at all.

My point is, if you're gonna present something, present it in a believable way. Spock throws Plomeek Soup at Nurse Chapel, that would be considered unbelievable under normal circumstances, but since the episode gets into why he's acting this way, it's perfectly believable.

And STXI went into why Kirk wound up getting command: because Pike himself had hand-picked him to command the ship. STID shows us it's a decision that Pike came to regret as Kirk really WASN'T ready when he took command and on some level even he knew this.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

A fair example of something that is unbelievable in nuTrek is Kirk being promoted from a third year cadet to the Captain of the flagship of the Federation.

What's odd about that? Saavik apparently went from an officer cadet to chief science officer on USS Grissom. And she didn't even save the entire planet from a terrorist attack!

So your point is that if a mistake was made by filmmakers in the past it should be okay to make that mistake again?

Not buying it. Being promoted to a captain takes more than blind luck and a veteran officer that "believes" in you. It would be been more believable to show a "X Years Later" subtitle the moment Kirk arrives on the bridge with a goldshirt. Simple as that. It wouldn't have hurt the film to do something like that, would it?

And STXI went into why Kirk wound up getting command: because Pike himself had hand-picked him to command the ship. STID shows us it's a decision that Pike came to regret as Kirk really WASN'T ready when he took command and on some level even he knew this.

It was one of the things I actually liked about STID, acknowledging the absurdity of that promotion and showing the consequences. I remember thinking "perfect, now Kirk is going to have to really earn it", and then five minutes later Pike dies and Kirk is immediately reinstated. Oy.

 

[BillJ]

(which reminds me: Why did the Enterprise submerge in water? Would it not have made sense to keep the ship in orbit around the planet instead?).

Bob

Can't help you there. Makes no sense to me either.

I think it was done to show that Kirk was still immature and reckless. It's my personal interpretation, but I won't speak for the writers.

 

[SeerSGB]

(which reminds me: Why did the Enterprise submerge in water? Would it not have made sense to keep the ship in orbit around the planet instead?).

Bob

Can't help you there. Makes no sense to me either.

I think it was done to show that Kirk was still immature and reckless. It's my personal interpretation, but I won't speak for the writers.

That was my take too. Scotty was calling him out on it when Kirk reboarded the ship. It was Kirk doing something cause it was cool and fun. He needed to grow up, and the stunt with the ship was just a symptom/example of that.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

(which reminds me: Why did the Enterprise submerge in water? Would it not have made sense to keep the ship in orbit around the planet instead?).

Bob

Can't help you there. Makes no sense to me either.

I think it was done to show that Kirk was still immature and reckless. It's my personal interpretation, but I won't speak for the writers.

I think that works. What supports that is Scotty's objection to leaving the Enterprise underwater, showing that Kirk didn't listen to his chief engineer's recommendation.

EDIT: Pretty much what Seer says.

 

[BillJ]

I think that works. What supports that is Scotty's objection to leaving the Enterprise underwater, showing that Kirk didn't listen to his chief engineer's recommendation.

Though prime Kirk was known to ignore the recommendations of his Chief Engineer from time to time.

I chalk it up to Kirk thinking he was above conventional wisdom on how to do certain things. It is a trait that seems consistent with the Prime Universe version of the character. This Kirk simply needs to learn when to go against conventional wisdom and when to play it by the book.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I think that works. What supports that is Scotty's objection to leaving the Enterprise underwater, showing that Kirk didn't listen to his chief engineer's recommendation.

Though prime Kirk was known to ignore the recommendations of his Chief Engineer from time to time.

I chalk it up to Kirk thinking he was above conventional wisdom on how to do certain things. It is a trait that seems consistent with the Prime Universe version of the character. This Kirk simply needs to learn when to go against conventional wisdom and when to play it by the book.

In the case of this nuKirk, it seems to have backfired. Twice. Imagine how it would have played if he did what Scotty told him to.

*opens up the weapons*

Kirk: "Oh."

 

[Set Harth]

So your point is that if a mistake was made by filmmakers in the past it should be okay to make that mistake again?

The point is don't use a double standard.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Did I?

 

[mswood]

A fair example of something that is unbelievable in nuTrek is Kirk being promoted from a third year cadet to the Captain of the flagship of the Federation.

What's odd about that? Saavik apparently went from an officer cadet to chief science officer on USS Grissom. And she didn't even save the entire planet from a terrorist attack!

So your point is that if a mistake was made by filmmakers in the past it should be okay to make that mistake again?

Not buying it. Being promoted to a captain takes more than blind luck and a veteran officer that "believes" in you. It would be been more believable to show a "X Years Later" subtitle the moment Kirk arrives on the bridge with a goldshirt. Simple as that. It wouldn't have hurt the film to do something like that, would it?

And STXI went into why Kirk wound up getting command: because Pike himself had hand-picked him to command the ship. STID shows us it's a decision that Pike came to regret as Kirk really WASN'T ready when he took command and on some level even he knew this.

It was one of the things I actually liked about STID, acknowledging the absurdity of that promotion and showing the consequences. I remember thinking "perfect, now Kirk is going to have to really earn it", and then five minutes later Pike dies and Kirk is immediately reinstated. Oy.

See but there it makes perfect sense. We have several command level officers dead. We have an Admiral who needs an another ship to transport weapons to Kronos to start a war. Who better then a young officer, with far less then what would be average of command time (though of course we don't know how much command time Kirk did acquire it just wasn't a 5 year mission.

By the time Kirk handles that crisis and has another year or so (where he could be commanding a much smaller less critical vessel), I can absolutely see him being rewarded his command that he gets at the very end of STiD.

Back to the issue f the Enterprise in water. Seriously people are serious idiots. In fact I think every Trek, with the exception of TNG had either their ship or shuttle actually maneuver insides fields of more pressure then what a the E was in during STiD.

Immunity Syndrome, even with low gravity, it would be significant for how deep the ship goes in it.

DS9, has the defiant, the Jem'Hadar and a merchant ship travel through the atmosphere of a gas giant. Voyager as Fluidic space, it has the ocean body the Delta flyer travels very deep into, and the space creature from early first season. Enterprise has it's shuttles going through a giant, we see an alien ship going through part of a star, we have the denser atmosphere the sphere builders control.

That's not an isolated example, that predates JJ Trek.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

What's odd about that? Saavik apparently went from an officer cadet to chief science officer on USS Grissom. And she didn't even save the entire planet from a terrorist attack!

So your point is that if a mistake was made by filmmakers in the past it should be okay to make that mistake again?

Not buying it. Being promoted to a captain takes more than blind luck and a veteran officer that "believes" in you. It would be been more believable to show a "X Years Later" subtitle the moment Kirk arrives on the bridge with a goldshirt. Simple as that. It wouldn't have hurt the film to do something like that, would it?

And STXI went into why Kirk wound up getting command: because Pike himself had hand-picked him to command the ship. STID shows us it's a decision that Pike came to regret as Kirk really WASN'T ready when he took command and on some level even he knew this.

It was one of the things I actually liked about STID, acknowledging the absurdity of that promotion and showing the consequences. I remember thinking "perfect, now Kirk is going to have to really earn it", and then five minutes later Pike dies and Kirk is immediately reinstated. Oy.

See but there it makes perfect sense. We have several command level officers dead. We have an Admiral who needs an another ship to transport weapons to Kronos to start a war. Who better then a young officer, with far less then what would be average of command time (though of course we don't know how much command time Kirk did acquire it just wasn't a 5 year mission.

I won't argue that it makes sense that the Admiral would put a hothead like Kirk in charge hoping he does what he thinks, the results being his death. Normally a new Captain would be assigned on the Enterprise rather than have Kirk just because he's next in line. I would assume that after the whole Khan debacle that Starfleet would have assigned a new Captain had the Enterprise not been so damaged.

By the time Kirk handles that crisis and has another year or so (where he could be commanding a much smaller less critical vessel), I can absolutely see him being rewarded his command that he gets at the very end of STiD.

And that's my problem right there, the very thing I was looking forward to with Kirk proving his worth and earning is stripes is glossed over by having the film skip a whole year. He couldn't have earned the stripes just for the Khan mission, as the real heroes on that mission were Spock, Bones, Uhura and Scotty. So what else did he have to do to prove himself? I suppose that will be covered in the comics, which I couldn't care less about.

I will say this, I'm glad this whole terrible "Kirk finding his way" is done with, assuming the ending implies that Kirk will be much more like Shatner Kirk where he's more experienced and authoritative.

 

[Commishsleer]

Realistic is essentially boring. That goes for every movie genre. Everthing is speeded up, people become more assertive, funny, good looking, crazy than they'd ever be in real life so we get the message and story within 90 minutes - 2 1/2 hours.

A realistic first contact would involve spending months/years working out the language (if no magical universal translater). Then you'd have to shuttle down to the planet and put a landing pad for the transporter. Then everyone would need to decontaminate to not spread/pick up different diseases.

And to survey a planet would take years and would not just involve the captain, chief science officer and CMO taking samples.
Everything is condensed for the hour long episode or 2 hour movie.

That being said I want it to be somewhat believable (if I don't look too closely).
Some people (myself included) can look past that Data is obviously a person with heavy makeup while the robot in Lost In Space looks entirely like a robot (maybe not acts like a robot)

I'm not saying I think the underwater Enterprise was 'realistic' or not realistc. I don't know. I would suspect that something that was built to maneuver in space wouldn't necessarily be able to withstand the pressures of being underwater. But then again the hull would need to be able to withstand phaser and photon torpedo blasts.

 

[Ovation]

Does it seem to be a trend these days where "realism" is more required in fictional movies and shows? I think maybe a lot of people look at something like the new Batman movies, while still not exactly realistic, if put on a spectrum from unrealism to realism, it would probably rank higher than most entertainment, like Star Trek. It certainly was trying to make things a bit less silly than some of the previous incarnations of Batman. Is that a trend that maybe people were expecting to see in these rebooted movies? Kind of like how you wouldn't expect to see neon colored tights on the X-men, you might expect some more realism in Trek too. I think in some ways these new movies did take a step forward there (aesthetically), and in others they might have taken some steps back (real world science) or at least sideways.

I think rebooting Star Trek would give the chance to allow for a higher place on that spectrum. It doesn't need to be yet another situation that's, "Star Trek has always been unrealistic, why expect it now?" That's not exactly setting the highest bar.

But surely that's an artistic choice, not an obligation? Certainly anyone who would have preferred or anticipated that shift would be disappointed it wasn't there, but the filmmakers are under no obligation to meet such an expectation (viewers are not owed anything but the opportunity to watch the film and comment after--they certainly are not owed satisfaction).

 

[Ryan8bit]

But surely that's an artistic choice, not an obligation?

Absolutely. I'm just surprised that they didn't make that choice given its prevalence and that they are somewhat mimicking those patterns of success.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

A fair example of something that is unbelievable in nuTrek is Kirk being promoted from a third year cadet to the Captain of the flagship of the Federation.

What's odd about that? Saavik apparently went from an officer cadet to chief science officer on USS Grissom. And she didn't even save the entire planet from a terrorist attack!

So your point is that if a mistake was made by filmmakers in the past it should be okay to make that mistake again?

Actually, my point is that this seems to be a relatively normal occurrence in Starfleet if said cadet is sufficiently qualified. NASA already does this with its astronaut program, largely because the crew of any particular mission all train together before they ever set foot on a spacecraft.

There's a REASON why their uniforms come in three different colors, you know. The officers in the command division are TRAINED for command from the get-go. Apparently Kirk was the best command-track cadet in the academy and got the commander's job, same as Saavik was the best science officer and got THAT job as well.

Not buying it. Being promoted to a captain takes more than blind luck and a veteran officer that "believes" in you.

Not at NASA it doesn't. Apparently, not in Starfleet either. It's obviously not without precedent, but it doesn't always work out. In fact, I would argue that the occasional mental breakdowns of command officers we've seen in TOS (Decker, Tracey, Garth, etc) might be a consequence of exactly this kind of "jumped to command" promotion style: officers who were trained from day one to command starships and never had to do anything else, only to crack under the pressure some years later.

And STXI went into why Kirk wound up getting command: because Pike himself had hand-picked him to command the ship. STID shows us it's a decision that Pike came to regret as Kirk really WASN'T ready when he took command and on some level even he knew this.

It was one of the things I actually liked about STID, acknowledging the absurdity of that promotion and showing the consequences. I remember thinking "perfect, now Kirk is going to have to really earn it", and then five minutes later Pike dies and Kirk is immediately reinstated. Oy.

Even so, he still wound up having to earn it IMO.

 

[UFO]

What's odd about that? Saavik apparently went from an officer cadet to chief science officer on USS Grissom. And she didn't even save the entire planet from a terrorist attack!

So your point is that if a mistake was made by filmmakers in the past it should be okay to make that mistake again?

Actually, my point is that this seems to be a relatively normal occurrence in Starfleet if said cadet is sufficiently qualified.

Which of course is the main problem with promoting Kirk, especially to that level of command. Presumably Saavik is already sufficiently qualified from a scientific point of view. You say "chief science officer on USS Grissom". How many other science officers were on board, do you recall? Although Spock was also first officer, maybe a normal science officer is more like a doctor, where the science qualifications come first, and the rank is tacked on? In any event she didn't have the same kinds or level of responsibility a Captain (of a flagship!) would have.

NASA already does this with its astronaut program, largely because the crew of any particular mission all train together before they ever set foot on a spacecraft.

I don't know, but I suspect NASA would be a somewhat different animal in a number of respects and if they do things differently to what you would expect from a Navy, they doubtless have their reasons. Lack of billets for people to gain experience being one perhaps.

Apparently Kirk was the best command-track cadet in the academy and got the commander's job, same as Saavik was the best science officer and got THAT job as well.

But surely the academy is just the beginning of learning, not the end. So there should have been many far better qualified people on other ships.

Even so, he still wound up having to earn it IMO.

I presume by "earn it" you mean: showing he could do the job? I don't think the Enterprise should be treated as a bouquet of flowers or a bonus cheque.

 

[Set Harth]

Kind of like how you wouldn't expect to see neon colored tights on the X-men

Tell that to the people who keep complaining about Wolverine not having the costume from the comics.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kind of like how you wouldn't expect to see neon colored tights on the X-men

Tell that to the people who keep complaining about Wolverine not having the costume from the comics.

Blue and gold or brown and tan?

 

[nightwind1]

In STID the Enterprise had to cope with the gravity of the planet and the pressure of water .

Bob

You do know the Enterprise has artificial gravity manipulation capabilities and forcefields, right?

 

[SeerSGB]

In STID the Enterprise had to cope with the gravity of the planet and the pressure of water .

Bob

You do know the Enterprise has artificial gravity manipulation capabilities and forcefields, right?

And it was established in the first movie that in this timeline planet + ship = no problems.