STC's Lolani
- Thread starter Jay
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The only point I'm trying to make is that no matter what the truth is as to the origin of the episode, the episode itself was excellent. James Cameron was sued something like six times by writers claiming that he stole "Avatar" from them. Does that mean I shouldn't watch that movie again? That's just one example. My point is, if "Lolani" was stolen from someone else's previous work, that's something the courts should decide. For me, I'm just going to continue to enjoy the episode.
And that's fine. My point is the overriding perception I get reading this thread that for some people, plagiarism isn't all that big a deal, let alone wrong.
That's what I was objecting to.
and not resurrected by me
listening to chapter 1 as read by the author...somewhere a community theater is missing it's diva
http://podiobooks.com/title/taken-liberty-a-tale-from-the-arbiter-chronicles/
I believe she has also appeared on Bates Motel.
Cameron was also sued by Harlan Ellison over Terminator -- and Cameron lost. Sometimes plagerists actually get caught.
And there are many, many, many reasons why you should never watch Avatar again, mainly because it's boring, derivative claptrap.
Well I posted to this because Vic gave an interview on 1701news: http://1701news.com/news/all which was followed by some of the most vile and vicious attacks on Vic and STC I have ever seen on the net written by Gary Stu (made up name I am sure). It started out with stuff I have seen on this thread but taken to a new low and a new extreme. The posts have since been deleted by the moderator but I sure it was AP himself or one of his accolades since I have never seen that from any other fan production (except Axanar) and quite frankly as a fan I am tired of it. I like STC, NV, Horizon, Renegades, Farragut, etc and look forward to each fan production. I have never seen anyone officially associated with any of these publicly call out any other production and trash them. I don't know what happened between NV and STC but I am glad they are professional enough to keep it to themselves.
I have seen "Lolani" but I have not read the work the author claims to have been plagiarized. If the authorr thinks he has a claim he should pursue it through legal means, not in social media.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
Well, I've seen "Lolani" and read a small portion of the book in question -- as much as I was able to get through. I'm not saying it was terrible, but I will state that it didn't work for me.
There are some casual similarities, which may be because both "Lolani" and "Taken Liberty" are heavily influenced by Star Trek. "Taken Liberty" feels very much like a Star Trek idea with the serial numbers filed off. That's not meant as a value judgment; just my reaction to the first chapter or two. So, it's no surprise the two enslaved females bear a certain surface similarity.
But the novel and the episode are very different in execution. I didn't find anything that looks like plagiarism -- no characters, sentences or sequences in "Taken Liberty" looked like anything in "Lolani" other than maybe at the level of a TV Guide slugline: Ship's Captain is forced to choose between political needs of his Space Navy and freedom for an escaped slave.
And an idea at that level isn't copyrightable. So, even if the writers of "Lolani" had read "Taken Liberty" (which nobody has presented any evidence to support) they didn't lift characters, plot or words from the book. Thus, it's not plagiarism.
I intended to read the whole book, but when it got into kinda-sorta gleefully describing the sex slavery of a couple underage characters, I just had to stop reading. It was, to my taste, needlessly unpleasant.
There are some casual similarities, which may be because both "Lolani" and "Taken Liberty" are heavily influenced by Star Trek. "Taken Liberty" feels very much like a Star Trek idea with the serial numbers filed off. That's not meant as a value judgment; just my reaction to the first chapter or two. So, it's no surprise the two enslaved females bear a certain surface similarity.
But the novel and the episode are very different in execution. I didn't find anything that looks like plagiarism -- no characters, sentences or sequences in "Taken Liberty" looked like anything in "Lolani" other than maybe at the level of a TV Guide slugline: Ship's Captain is forced to choose between political needs of his Space Navy and freedom for an escaped slave.
And an idea at that level isn't copyrightable. So, even if the writers of "Lolani" had read "Taken Liberty" (which nobody has presented any evidence to support) they didn't lift characters, plot or words from the book. Thus, it's not plagiarism.
I intended to read the whole book, but when it got into kinda-sorta gleefully describing the sex slavery of a couple underage characters, I just had to stop reading. It was, to my taste, needlessly unpleasant.
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This.
It's hilarious how you guys are equating ''well, I didn't like the book that much so there's no way the STC people could have plagiarized it for their episode''...
It's NOT like a high school term paper where the dumb jock prints out the research paper from some other kid from clear across the continent to pass off entirely as his own.
One of the toughest aspects of screenwriting is the early goings, when you beef up the germ of an idea and expand it into a plot that works.
A plot is usually about 3/4s of a page long and has the main events and happenings of your story. What makes a plot difficult is that these events have to make sense and progress your story in a logical way because of your protagonist's personality. You can't have a main character who's the biggest wallflower in the world and have him become Scarface at the end unless the middle part of the story explains how that transition came about.
Did the STC writers plagiarize this book for their Lolani script? Up to now it's still entirely possible...
It's NOT like a high school term paper where the dumb jock prints out the research paper from some other kid from clear across the continent to pass off entirely as his own.
One of the toughest aspects of screenwriting is the early goings, when you beef up the germ of an idea and expand it into a plot that works.
A plot is usually about 3/4s of a page long and has the main events and happenings of your story. What makes a plot difficult is that these events have to make sense and progress your story in a logical way because of your protagonist's personality. You can't have a main character who's the biggest wallflower in the world and have him become Scarface at the end unless the middle part of the story explains how that transition came about.
Did the STC writers plagiarize this book for their Lolani script? Up to now it's still entirely possible...
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Are there similarities? Yes.
Is there an ironclad case of plagarism? Debatable. Too often over the years I've seen many similarities between different works that it's very easy to throw around the accusation of "rip-off."
At this point nothing is proven and since it's not in court then it's barely an allegation.
Is there an ironclad case of plagarism? Debatable. Too often over the years I've seen many similarities between different works that it's very easy to throw around the accusation of "rip-off."
At this point nothing is proven and since it's not in court then it's barely an allegation.
From what I've read of the book the similarities are there but also sufficiently vague. The book comes across as something of an amateurish reworking of Trek in general so it seems a bit much to accuse STC of ripping off something that could be seen as a rip-off in itself.
I've read books that read very much like Babylon 5 in terms of setting, but then B5 is something of a distillation of military SF in literature that has been around since practically the beginning of SF lit in the pulps. I recall one particular novel that featured a warlike avian race that really reminded me of the Skorr in TAS. But the Skorr were a somewhat vague idea with little background to them whereas the novel I read (published decades later than TAS) had a thoroughly fleshed out alien culture.
Did the writer rip-off the Skorr from TAS or did he take the basic idea and then flesh it out sufficiently to distinguish it from Trek? Did he even know about the Skorr in TAS to begin with?
Did David Gerrold rip-off Trek and TNG in general with his Starwolf books?
How many and how long have cop and detective stories in literature, television and film been "ripping off" everything similar that came before?
A vague or general similarity isn't a proven case of plagarism. One has to be able to point to more than one instance of something being practically indistinguishable from another source to even begin alleging deliberate plagiarism.
And from I know the author has not made any such open accusation.
I've read books that read very much like Babylon 5 in terms of setting, but then B5 is something of a distillation of military SF in literature that has been around since practically the beginning of SF lit in the pulps. I recall one particular novel that featured a warlike avian race that really reminded me of the Skorr in TAS. But the Skorr were a somewhat vague idea with little background to them whereas the novel I read (published decades later than TAS) had a thoroughly fleshed out alien culture.
Did the writer rip-off the Skorr from TAS or did he take the basic idea and then flesh it out sufficiently to distinguish it from Trek? Did he even know about the Skorr in TAS to begin with?
Did David Gerrold rip-off Trek and TNG in general with his Starwolf books?
How many and how long have cop and detective stories in literature, television and film been "ripping off" everything similar that came before?
A vague or general similarity isn't a proven case of plagarism. One has to be able to point to more than one instance of something being practically indistinguishable from another source to even begin alleging deliberate plagiarism.
And from I know the author has not made any such open accusation.
The premises of a number of 1978 Battlestar Galactica episodes were transparently ripoffs of successful films, but still not specific enough to sue over. Take "The Lost Warrior" (Shane), "The Magnificent Warriors" (The Magnificent Seven), and "The Gun on Ice Planet Zero" (The Guns of Navarone, The Dirty Dozen, and Ice Station Zebra).
And then take The Magnificent Seven itself, a Western redressing of Seven Samurai.
And then take The Magnificent Seven itself, a Western redressing of Seven Samurai.
I don't think it;s possible to say that with any certainty unless someone has read the entire book to see how many points of similarity there are.
The Magnificent Seven was an authorized remake of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai.
In contrast, A Fistful of Dollars was an unauthorized remake of Kurosawa's Yojimbo. Kurosawa sued and won a very favorable settlement.
Interesting, thanks.
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