Stargate: Universe is what Voyager should've been like
- Thread starter Maxillius
- Start date
For fun, why don't we apply many of those suggestions to DS9:
- More sex. Yes, let's make sure every late series episodes has Kira or Odo recount some of their sexual escapades or Sisko pass time by talking about 'delivering cargo' to 'Kasidy Yates' freighter'. Or give Star Trek all the dignity it had with Worf & Dax having sex in the turbolifts or Jeffries tubes. Maybe in his quest to better understand solids, Odo could turn into a Cardassian vole and have sex with another vole to understand those biological drives and impulses in solids, and perhaps to frame Quark for health & sanitation violations.
- More casual outfits. Like the female Cylons, all Changelings should go nude. Have Dax in a revealing outfit. Retcon Trills to be like Goa'uld symbiotes. Dax could emerge from Jadzia's navel and tell stories to Sisko like Quaddo or whatever from Total Recall instead of Jadzia telling those stories to Sisko. Maybe Sisko, to symbolize his dual role as Starfleet commander and Bajoran emissary wear a shirt/pants from the Starfleet uniform and a pants/shirt from a Bajoran religious outfit. Since Sisko started to get cool when he channeled Hawk, maybe he should have been allowed to wear a trench coat and shades when he commanded the Defiant. Activate tinted windows, err the cloaking device!
- The lack of plants. How many plants did TOS or TNG have? DS9 & VOY together showed about the same amount of plants, though at least Voyager had hydroponics for a while. Maybe replace the baseball on Sisko's desk with a plant. Make the Jem'Hadar wear bowl-shaped helmets with little patches of moss or plants growing in the bowl, some kind of symbolic gesture of their devotion to the Founders or something. In keeping with nuBSG, make all Jem'Hadar wear cocktail dresses.
- More drama. DS9 didn't have enough drama. Turn it up 10-fold, have every character bicker with everyone, make sure characters have well-developed reasons for hating everyone- even Sisko with O'Brien, Garak with Dax, Dax with Quark, Odo with Bashir, etc. Make it so the viewers know more about who and what they hate than who they even are.
Ah, now let's take some of his recommendations for Voyager. let's start with some smaller points.
Chakotay isn't just Maquis, he's a Native American. He could fully embrace his heritage by wearing a Native American outfit from the back closet of TOS leftovers around there. Maybe he could wear a feather headdress, 3 feathers to denote his rank as commander. For upping the drama, have him not just maintain the stance of a hostile, spiteful rebel, but have him also heap centuries of guilt on the white man, err, woman and her black servant, who "traded his race's chains to help the white man oppress other races". Liken various gestures Janeway does for the Maquis as smallpox blankets, liken B'Elanna's Chief Engineer status as collaborating with their oppressors, liken their quarters to trailers on the reservation.
Everyone could dress like they are schemers from the mirror universe... except Seven, she has to wear a Borg burka, out of self-imposed shame for all the millions she helped to assmiliate into the Borg and her hesitation to be a fully independent individual. To show character development, as she becomes more comfortable in non-collective/cult life and feels more like an individual, she can shift outfits every season following a curve on how much is covered up with Middle Eastern women's attire, ending up with a loose shawl or something. In fact, Voyager didn't have enough conflict and scheming. Just lift how the aliens saw it in "Living Witness" and make the entire series like that.
And lets have them talk about what it's like being so far from home in 2 out of every 3 episodes. We should of had Kirk & the Enterprise moan about being so far from home on some of their deep long range expeditions. Remember, the Enterprise was exploring deep space part of the time and Enterprise-D was away from 'home' for almost a full year in Season 1.
Better continuity. There should have been more minor mentions of other races encountered or events, but Voyager's nature made it hard to have active continuity from anything outside of the ship/crew. The ship is speeding along at warp 6.whatever and did many huge jumps from Seasons 4 to early Season 6. They left behind every race far beyond the horizon except for the Borg, and later on, the Hirogen. Voyager did keep Paris an ensign for a while and locked him up for 30 days in the brig.
Less Maquis integration. While I agree it was glossed over a little too much, I think what people dreamed of went too far. What did people want, them to conspire to take over the ship every other episode, commit acts of sabotage? We got 2 traitors from the Maquis and 1 murderer. I think people forget they were former Starfleet in many cases and being entirely removed from the source of their conflict, the Federation-Cardassian treaty & DMZ and on the far side of the galaxy in uncharted space with some hostile enemies. It made their differences with Starfleet seem insignificant, and Voyager was the only ship home and their only kind out there (minus Amelia Earhart & Tackleberry). Their desire for looser interpretation of Starfleet policy to find ways back home was done in "Prime Factors". 2 of the senior staff were Maquis, the #2 and the Chief Engineer. One of their own was literally the one propelling them towards home, and Ayala was a prominent security officer and the stand-in for Tuvok on the bridge (he should have been given more a voice, given a Garak level guest-star/recurring role though).
More damage. Yes, like DS9 had that. "To the Death"'s damage didn't linger, and I think another episode damaged the station and that didn't linger. Damage from "Civil Defense" miraculously was fixed by the next episode. All those lists of war dead were nameless people from around Starfleet, not actual cast members. All his criticisms are a case of pot meet kettle.
Cycling this back to the original topic... Something to remember is Star Trek was a franchise that attracted viewers from little kids to adults. How many of us first started watching Star Trek when we were kids? I know from reading criticisms of Stargate Universe that Stargate too had a family sci-fi atmosphere to it too, as many Stargate franchise fans felt after seeing the pilot's closet sex scene that they didn't feel comfortable letting their young children watch this with them like they did Atlantis or SG-1. Sex on tv is often meant for the viewers/ratings, not for artistic reasons. It also lobs off the younger part of a demographic, especially when the demo reaches into childhood age, and part of a franchise's lifeblood is being able to hook new viewers at a young age. Baseball is the same way. To boost the ratings, we don't see MLB have some of their players show themselves getting to first/second/third base with their girlfriends or wives. And all that bickering is just the equivalent of going in circles. People want to watch a story go somewhere, not just rehash the same grievances over and over again. For example, Odo-Quark set the mood, it didn't become the defining plot of the episodes.
- More sex. Yes, let's make sure every late series episodes has Kira or Odo recount some of their sexual escapades or Sisko pass time by talking about 'delivering cargo' to 'Kasidy Yates' freighter'. Or give Star Trek all the dignity it had with Worf & Dax having sex in the turbolifts or Jeffries tubes. Maybe in his quest to better understand solids, Odo could turn into a Cardassian vole and have sex with another vole to understand those biological drives and impulses in solids, and perhaps to frame Quark for health & sanitation violations.
- More casual outfits. Like the female Cylons, all Changelings should go nude. Have Dax in a revealing outfit. Retcon Trills to be like Goa'uld symbiotes. Dax could emerge from Jadzia's navel and tell stories to Sisko like Quaddo or whatever from Total Recall instead of Jadzia telling those stories to Sisko. Maybe Sisko, to symbolize his dual role as Starfleet commander and Bajoran emissary wear a shirt/pants from the Starfleet uniform and a pants/shirt from a Bajoran religious outfit. Since Sisko started to get cool when he channeled Hawk, maybe he should have been allowed to wear a trench coat and shades when he commanded the Defiant. Activate tinted windows, err the cloaking device!
- The lack of plants. How many plants did TOS or TNG have? DS9 & VOY together showed about the same amount of plants, though at least Voyager had hydroponics for a while. Maybe replace the baseball on Sisko's desk with a plant. Make the Jem'Hadar wear bowl-shaped helmets with little patches of moss or plants growing in the bowl, some kind of symbolic gesture of their devotion to the Founders or something. In keeping with nuBSG, make all Jem'Hadar wear cocktail dresses.
- More drama. DS9 didn't have enough drama. Turn it up 10-fold, have every character bicker with everyone, make sure characters have well-developed reasons for hating everyone- even Sisko with O'Brien, Garak with Dax, Dax with Quark, Odo with Bashir, etc. Make it so the viewers know more about who and what they hate than who they even are.
Ah, now let's take some of his recommendations for Voyager. let's start with some smaller points.
Chakotay isn't just Maquis, he's a Native American. He could fully embrace his heritage by wearing a Native American outfit from the back closet of TOS leftovers around there. Maybe he could wear a feather headdress, 3 feathers to denote his rank as commander. For upping the drama, have him not just maintain the stance of a hostile, spiteful rebel, but have him also heap centuries of guilt on the white man, err, woman and her black servant, who "traded his race's chains to help the white man oppress other races". Liken various gestures Janeway does for the Maquis as smallpox blankets, liken B'Elanna's Chief Engineer status as collaborating with their oppressors, liken their quarters to trailers on the reservation.
Everyone could dress like they are schemers from the mirror universe... except Seven, she has to wear a Borg burka, out of self-imposed shame for all the millions she helped to assmiliate into the Borg and her hesitation to be a fully independent individual. To show character development, as she becomes more comfortable in non-collective/cult life and feels more like an individual, she can shift outfits every season following a curve on how much is covered up with Middle Eastern women's attire, ending up with a loose shawl or something. In fact, Voyager didn't have enough conflict and scheming. Just lift how the aliens saw it in "Living Witness" and make the entire series like that.
And lets have them talk about what it's like being so far from home in 2 out of every 3 episodes. We should of had Kirk & the Enterprise moan about being so far from home on some of their deep long range expeditions. Remember, the Enterprise was exploring deep space part of the time and Enterprise-D was away from 'home' for almost a full year in Season 1.
Better continuity. There should have been more minor mentions of other races encountered or events, but Voyager's nature made it hard to have active continuity from anything outside of the ship/crew. The ship is speeding along at warp 6.whatever and did many huge jumps from Seasons 4 to early Season 6. They left behind every race far beyond the horizon except for the Borg, and later on, the Hirogen. Voyager did keep Paris an ensign for a while and locked him up for 30 days in the brig.
Less Maquis integration. While I agree it was glossed over a little too much, I think what people dreamed of went too far. What did people want, them to conspire to take over the ship every other episode, commit acts of sabotage? We got 2 traitors from the Maquis and 1 murderer. I think people forget they were former Starfleet in many cases and being entirely removed from the source of their conflict, the Federation-Cardassian treaty & DMZ and on the far side of the galaxy in uncharted space with some hostile enemies. It made their differences with Starfleet seem insignificant, and Voyager was the only ship home and their only kind out there (minus Amelia Earhart & Tackleberry). Their desire for looser interpretation of Starfleet policy to find ways back home was done in "Prime Factors". 2 of the senior staff were Maquis, the #2 and the Chief Engineer. One of their own was literally the one propelling them towards home, and Ayala was a prominent security officer and the stand-in for Tuvok on the bridge (he should have been given more a voice, given a Garak level guest-star/recurring role though).
More damage. Yes, like DS9 had that. "To the Death"'s damage didn't linger, and I think another episode damaged the station and that didn't linger. Damage from "Civil Defense" miraculously was fixed by the next episode. All those lists of war dead were nameless people from around Starfleet, not actual cast members. All his criticisms are a case of pot meet kettle.
Cycling this back to the original topic... Something to remember is Star Trek was a franchise that attracted viewers from little kids to adults. How many of us first started watching Star Trek when we were kids? I know from reading criticisms of Stargate Universe that Stargate too had a family sci-fi atmosphere to it too, as many Stargate franchise fans felt after seeing the pilot's closet sex scene that they didn't feel comfortable letting their young children watch this with them like they did Atlantis or SG-1. Sex on tv is often meant for the viewers/ratings, not for artistic reasons. It also lobs off the younger part of a demographic, especially when the demo reaches into childhood age, and part of a franchise's lifeblood is being able to hook new viewers at a young age. Baseball is the same way. To boost the ratings, we don't see MLB have some of their players show themselves getting to first/second/third base with their girlfriends or wives. And all that bickering is just the equivalent of going in circles. People want to watch a story go somewhere, not just rehash the same grievances over and over again. For example, Odo-Quark set the mood, it didn't become the defining plot of the episodes.
Oh my word, it's been years and I still remember his whining about plants.
I kinda liked what Firefly did with painting their kitchen, though. 
It was homey. Honestly, though, DeepSpaceWine - I have this to say:
...And I like nuBSG. But cripes, folks.
That there was still a fanbase and audience for both to spite what those online say. "Transformers 2" had to have repeat viewings to make the money it did. The studio heads are even aware that folks paid to see it just to join the haters online to talk about it, which is stupid beacuse if you pay into it then you're supporting it.It certainly inherited a large share of that audience, but yes, it got a fair amount of eyeballs. So did Transformers 2. Your point?
Really?... Again and again, you choose not to debate any of Moore's arguments, yet continue to piss on him and offer up diversions.
I didn't address continuity by using Miles 'OBrian in "Tribunal" and "Hard Time" as back up examples?
I didn't address address his issues of Seven of Nine in a catsuit next to Six always in a cocktail dress?
I didn't address insignifigant nitpicks as mementos & a gardern?
I didn't address another nickpick of crew "off duty" clothes with crew compliment and tight crew rotation?
I've addressed and given counterpoints to every one of Moores arguements presented to me.
The only counter arguement I saw that you gave to that was by making it personal by trying to say we were calling you a fool, which I repeat was never implied. So as I see it, the ball is in your court to prove that Moore's comments aren't hypocritical.
...and to address another of Moores arguements.
He sates that quality TV should be must see TV, where everyone is talking about it & spreading the word.
DS9 was NEVER must see TV.
It was never on the tip of anyones tongue in production.
Never heavily advertised, never given the support by Paramount like TNG, Voy & ENT.
If anything Voy. was more talked about due to the heavy advertising of Seven/Jeri Ryan.
I guarentee that if you held up photos of Data, Odo & Seven, more folks in the mass public would know Data & Seven before Odo.
DS9 only became a fan favorite in retrospect, not while in production.
Both the Defiant & Worf were brought on to boost viewership back up to TNG status.
"Full House", "Family Matters" & "Friends" were all considered must see TV, where's the quality?
Prove me wrong, then - try critiquing Moore's points without pissing on a different tv show. Try seeing if your arguments are worth anything on the merits of their reasoning alone.
When did Moore join the writing staff of Voyager?
Around s5-6, right?
So Moore is bitching about issues he couldn't fix at that point anyway. The show was almost over. It's easy at that point to go back over 5 years in retrospect and pick it apart, it's very different (once again using nuBSG as an example) to see same writing and production flaws while in production. So Moore like many haters are making an argument over something they had no control or say over to begin with. IMO if Moore had been there from the start and had his ideas vetoed, I'd understand his bitterness but he wasn't. What's the point in bitching and being bitter over a production you had nearly nothing to with? It's like complaining about a meal after you've nearly finished the plate.
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I had written another response but it is now forever lost in time.
Anyway I feel like some of you are missing Ron Moore's point in the article the was posted.
Continuity
Yes, DS9 sometimes played loose with continuity, but if you compare it with Voyager... Also DS9 wasn't solely a Ron Moore project. he didn't have final say on what happens so you can't exactly fault him on that.
BSG has incredible continuity throughout the run.
I'm not an expert in the CGI of Voyager era, but if they had to render a ship that has taken damage in an episode, why can't they reuse that model for the next episode? It shouldn't cost (much) more. Or did Voyager never show the ship after its damaged?
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Plants/Decorations
He's not actually saying he wants more plants in every scene. He's not a weirdo for plants. What he wants is some sign that the ship has become a home... that people would get tired of looking at the same panels and maybe change something. This doesn't apply to DS9 because that's a station where nobody is forced to be at.
Ron Moore actually followed his own advice with BSG. You might recall a few sets where things were changed or made more personal as the series went on. Memorial Wall and the pilot briefing rooms come to mind.
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Seven of Nine's Costume / Six
His main point is that it feels wrong for Seven to dress the way she dresses just as eye candy. Her costume doesn't fit the rest of the crew and is quite jarring. If other people in the crew started wearing more casual costumes, then he would have been fine with it. The problem is that she dresses very provocatively while nobody else seems to notice. That's doesn't ring true.
Six (and the rest of the cylon) do dress provocatively on occasion, but that's usually for a reason. The Cylons in the fleet dress pretty much like the rest of the humans. Head Six/Caprica Six dresses to seduce/influence Baltar. Other iterations of Six wear varying degrees of revealing clothing. eg. Gina generally wears more. Head Six generally wears her red dress.
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Sexuality
He doesn't want sex for the sake of seeing sex on the screen. Its just a bit unrealistic for people who are supposed to be stuck on a ship for 70 years to not start families. In the seven years, there were only two (real) pregnancies. One of them was conceived before the show, and the other was born at the end. That just seems strange.
You realize that this was a series of Q&A right? People were asking him on what his thoughts were of Voyager and the state of the franchise. If somebody asked a chef what felt about the taste of the meal... should he not answer?
I am somewhat stunned at the thought that someone in the universe believes Voyager was a better written show than DS9.
And to the level of Einstein? Gah.
Anyway I feel like some of you are missing Ron Moore's point in the article the was posted.
Continuity
Yes, DS9 sometimes played loose with continuity, but if you compare it with Voyager... Also DS9 wasn't solely a Ron Moore project. he didn't have final say on what happens so you can't exactly fault him on that.
BSG has incredible continuity throughout the run.
I'm not an expert in the CGI of Voyager era, but if they had to render a ship that has taken damage in an episode, why can't they reuse that model for the next episode? It shouldn't cost (much) more. Or did Voyager never show the ship after its damaged?
---
Plants/Decorations
He's not actually saying he wants more plants in every scene. He's not a weirdo for plants. What he wants is some sign that the ship has become a home... that people would get tired of looking at the same panels and maybe change something. This doesn't apply to DS9 because that's a station where nobody is forced to be at.
Ron Moore actually followed his own advice with BSG. You might recall a few sets where things were changed or made more personal as the series went on. Memorial Wall and the pilot briefing rooms come to mind.
---
Seven of Nine's Costume / Six
His main point is that it feels wrong for Seven to dress the way she dresses just as eye candy. Her costume doesn't fit the rest of the crew and is quite jarring. If other people in the crew started wearing more casual costumes, then he would have been fine with it. The problem is that she dresses very provocatively while nobody else seems to notice. That's doesn't ring true.
Six (and the rest of the cylon) do dress provocatively on occasion, but that's usually for a reason. The Cylons in the fleet dress pretty much like the rest of the humans. Head Six/Caprica Six dresses to seduce/influence Baltar. Other iterations of Six wear varying degrees of revealing clothing. eg. Gina generally wears more. Head Six generally wears her red dress.
---
Sexuality
He doesn't want sex for the sake of seeing sex on the screen. Its just a bit unrealistic for people who are supposed to be stuck on a ship for 70 years to not start families. In the seven years, there were only two (real) pregnancies. One of them was conceived before the show, and the other was born at the end. That just seems strange.
You realize that this was a series of Q&A right? People were asking him on what his thoughts were of Voyager and the state of the franchise. If somebody asked a chef what felt about the taste of the meal... should he not answer?
I am somewhat stunned at the thought that someone in the universe believes Voyager was a better written show than DS9.
And to the level of Einstein? Gah.
So what? It doesn't change that it started to fall apart after only 2 seasons, then totally fell apart by Season 3.
They didn't use CGI for the first half of the show, they used physical models. And no, they didn't show the ship much when it was supposed to be damaged they mainly showed interior sets slightly trashed while giving reports of off-screen damages.
It WAS at the forefront of a major war, and yet we never saw any lasting damages despite them talking about their losses and damages done in said war. The station always looked the same no matter how bad things got.
Not by much, really. And not to the extent he's talking about for VOY either.
Like how in TOS/TNG/DS9 they'd have provocatively dressed folks as guest stars and hardly anyone would react? Only difference was that Seven stuck around for longer.
Oh yes, Naked Boomer on the Cylon ship was certainly for a good reason...
Like in Farscape John and Aeryn were the only ones who had a kid together out of the entire cast? And seeing how the audience has reacted to Trek babies in the past, why would the writers want to repeat something they KNOW is a bad idea?
Saquist
Commodore
Ironic that we're going back to RDM's criticism of VOY now - which I agreed with at the time (and still do) - but Mr. Holy Continuity himself made a fundamental mistake with BSG, namely that he didn't bother to lock down the motivation of the Cylons before embarking on the story, which meant he kept having to come up with convoluted excuses for why they could stay in the story and generate more dramatic conflict, even if those excuses didn't stand up to even the most cursory examination.
So maybe a serialized structure is superior to episodic, but you do run into problems with it that an episodic structure avoids. It's a harder structure to write successfully (Lost is the poster child for that) and requires more attention to "little" details that can blow up in your face.
As for SG:U, geezus people. VOY was vastly better than that steaming pile. At its worst, Trek was still about as good as Stargate at its best, and SG:U is not Stargate at its best.
Even if the Cylons were tied in knots trying to keep the story going, its definitely worthwhile and does represent RDM successfully applying much of his VOY criticisms to his own show, that doesn't have any Star Trek baggage imposed on it.
So maybe a serialized structure is superior to episodic, but you do run into problems with it that an episodic structure avoids. It's a harder structure to write successfully (Lost is the poster child for that) and requires more attention to "little" details that can blow up in your face.
As for SG:U, geezus people. VOY was vastly better than that steaming pile. At its worst, Trek was still about as good as Stargate at its best, and SG:U is not Stargate at its best.
What?!? You need to! Immediately.
Even if the Cylons were tied in knots trying to keep the story going, its definitely worthwhile and does represent RDM successfully applying much of his VOY criticisms to his own show, that doesn't have any Star Trek baggage imposed on it.
Saquist
Commodore
Voyager's best and Brilliant Episodes were Many not few but they weren't most of the episodes.
Caretaker Part One and Two were the best Premire of Trek ever.
Parallax: A good use of technical know how to figure out the problem (not just technobable) Smart
Thaw: An incredible story on mind games with no sign of victory till the end. Smart
Faces: Belanna meets her other half. Good Drama
Season 2
Dreadnought: The concept is refreshing revealing the Extent of maquis aggression and reveal many regrets. (Character Drama)
Death Wish: Sure it's an excuse for a trial but still very realistic and well done for the ending. (Drama)
Deadlock: A masterful piece of writing with unexpected events and unexpected resolution. (Smart)
Tuvix: I hated him but this was a powerful story nonetheless. (Drama)
Basics Part I An excellent action story with a fantastic cliff hanger but a poor second parter (Drama and Action)
Season III
Flashback: Nostalgia factor was high...a few mistakes but well written.
Sacred Ground Very powerful very smart character driven story. Personal Dilemma's like this are REAL (Smart and Drama)
Before and Afterl Premotion stories are often methods to creating a bit of suspense for later and this was no different.
The Real Life Many of us forget the feeling of loss at the end of this episode but it was...powerful (Drama Smart)
Season IV
Scorpion I and EXCELLENT STORY (not counting the Drag down of the Borg that started in First Contact) Suspense and Action with an unexpected ending. Once again the other half fell short (Smart)
The Gift It was perhaps the perfect send off in Trek. They didn't kill her or loose her wondering whether she was alive or dead and linked it was Voyager's survival. (Drama Smart)
Scientific Method Mystery and Drama. There were so many powerful points in this ending but the powerplay is what made it truly interesting (Smart)
Hunters The introduction of the Hirogen is one of the best alien intros in Trek. The intimidation factor was high but it would really be the last time we can say that for the Hirogen episodes (Suspense)
Unforgettable I have to put this one up there. For the first time Chakotay has a mildly interesting episode to himself.
Hope and Fear YES this was an extremely good episode, revenge is best served cold...there balance between our enemy without and the one within (seven of nine)
Really Good Season of Voyager
Season V
Night an excellent character Drama that I wish was better resolved later for Janeway (Drama)
Drone An extremely good and rare borg episode. This is how it's supposed to be done. (smart)
Extreme Risk Yes once again no lasting effects but the episode sports some good acting and well reasoned despair (drama)
Counterpoint An extremely tense and intriguing Trek episode. The power play between Janeway and her nemesis is intriguing as she walks the line between trust and caution (smart)
Course Oblivion A Mystery rapped in an enigma. An extremely unexpected ending (smart)
Relativity an extremely smart action episode involving the rare proper use of Time Travel by BOTH enemy and Hero.
Equinox ( I have conflicting feeling about it but it really was a very smart character Drama between friends that would be enemies...wonderfully developed) (Smart)
Season VI
Equinox Part II
While I don't agree with the Janeway character in this episode it's easily the ABSOLUTE BEST resolution to VOY cliffhanger.
Draggon's Teeth It's standard first Contact for Voyager but well written and with it's exposition and resolution (smart)
The Voyager Conspiracy An extremely good mystery Drama episode and Seven brings it in spades as well as the continued drama between her and Janeway (the most consistent thread in the series) (Smart)
Memorial One of the more interesting ideas by pitting the crew against each other through indirect alien means (drama)
Good Shepard Yes Janeway is mothering again But lets face it the character often finds interesting ways to resolution and this story takes us through the task of strengthening a crew like a captain should (drama)
Season VII
The Void The concept of the Federation is put to it's ultimate test...to bad they never did this in DS9. SMART
Yes that is all for Season Seven which I regard mostly as an exercise in mediocrity
Saquist
Commodore
It was very boring. This is the mistake that many writers make believing that every character needs a long drawn out intro.
In Caretaker the story took precedent not necessarily the characters. Janeway and Tuvok , Chakotay and Torres were more or less the focus and told a gripping two hour story of how this faithful ship got stranded.
No Parallax is the episode where Voyager is caught in the event Horizon of a quantum singularity.
I think Caretaker needed some revisions personally, or maybe expanded into a 3-parter or a mini-series before the show proper.
One major change: Have it be that it was the Caretaker's own power that brought Voyager to the Delta Quadrant, and when he died so did all hope of going home.
One major change: Have it be that it was the Caretaker's own power that brought Voyager to the Delta Quadrant, and when he died so did all hope of going home.
That takes away Janeway power.
Janeway is in the Delta Quadrant because she chose to be.
She not completely a victim of circumstance.
Her choice was to go home at the expense of a sentient species, exactly the same as Ransom, even if Janeway didn't have to throw Ocampa into her warp core like Ransom, but it netted about the same degree of asshattedness.
it takes the balls out of the entire story if Janeway just accepts that getting home is beyond her abilities, that she just have to bend over for her fates nausea... Like Ransom 6 months earlier who took a look at Caretaker and ran rather than confront the bugger and give him the give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lie time bollocks... Caretaker was as suggestible as (literally) talking to a 4 year old, but maybe Banjoman was "saner" and harder to manipulate with fortune cookie wisdom back when he ran into Ransom?
Janeway is in the Delta Quadrant because she chose to be.
She not completely a victim of circumstance.
Her choice was to go home at the expense of a sentient species, exactly the same as Ransom, even if Janeway didn't have to throw Ocampa into her warp core like Ransom, but it netted about the same degree of asshattedness.
it takes the balls out of the entire story if Janeway just accepts that getting home is beyond her abilities, that she just have to bend over for her fates nausea... Like Ransom 6 months earlier who took a look at Caretaker and ran rather than confront the bugger and give him the give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lie time bollocks... Caretaker was as suggestible as (literally) talking to a 4 year old, but maybe Banjoman was "saner" and harder to manipulate with fortune cookie wisdom back when he ran into Ransom?
No one complained that Crichton had no choice but to be sucked through a wormhole away from home.
No one complained that Sisko was pretty much forced into accepting his wife's death by the Prophets.
No one complained that Picard was forced into the whole "Trial of Humanity" thing by Q.
So realistically, no one should complained that it's out of Janeway's hands that they ended up stuck in the Delta Quadrant.
No one complained that Sisko was pretty much forced into accepting his wife's death by the Prophets.
No one complained that Picard was forced into the whole "Trial of Humanity" thing by Q.
So realistically, no one should complained that it's out of Janeway's hands that they ended up stuck in the Delta Quadrant.
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by the end of Farscape John could go home with ease but that would have meant that the assholes would follow him and destroy his homeworld, so he met his dad on the moon and said I'm gong back to hold them off as long as I can and save you and the entire earth. Same choice as Janeway, it's just that he made it near the end of the last season when Janeway did so in the pilot. Actually making a decision is the difference between an antagonist and a hero (protagonist and Villain also maybe?).
Picard at the top of his lungs insisted that Q for all his purported Superiority was "Ethically Inferior" (or was it that Humans were Morally Superior?). Picard had Q on trial too, and even threw him in the brig the second he seemed powerless. Quid pro quo.
Anyone could have told Sisko to get his head out of his ass about his wife and almost every one should have... But then being "depressed" is a very human psychological expression and harldy the same or as complicated as being thrown to the otherside of the Galaxy, which is some piss easy Sisko did every other week. So what is space gods got the job done better and faster than the bottom of a bottle.
Picard at the top of his lungs insisted that Q for all his purported Superiority was "Ethically Inferior" (or was it that Humans were Morally Superior?). Picard had Q on trial too, and even threw him in the brig the second he seemed powerless. Quid pro quo.
Anyone could have told Sisko to get his head out of his ass about his wife and almost every one should have... But then being "depressed" is a very human psychological expression and harldy the same or as complicated as being thrown to the otherside of the Galaxy, which is some piss easy Sisko did every other week. So what is space gods got the job done better and faster than the bottom of a bottle.
Saquist
Commodore
Yeah, well SGU's opening wasn't that complex. "Caretaker" was and would have benefited from more time.
And Guy, the point still is that Crichton in the PILOT didn't have a choice. Later on he did, but not at the beginning.
Picard, yeah the trial was pretty much his idea but he still didn't have a choice but to deal with Q one way or another.
Sisko, yeah he was the only one who wasn't "forced" into anything really.
And Guy, the point still is that Crichton in the PILOT didn't have a choice. Later on he did, but not at the beginning.
Picard, yeah the trial was pretty much his idea but he still didn't have a choice but to deal with Q one way or another.
Sisko, yeah he was the only one who wasn't "forced" into anything really.
Sisko was forced into a doing a job that was already his duty he was thinking of bunking off.
And really, now that I'm rubbing my temples, the Prophets were Clueless. They weren't reverse psychologizing Benjy, these "gods" were asking questions and he answered them revealing unto himself the truth of every matter that past is past and that is where it belongs (mostly).
He talked himself into being more well balanced. they weren't much more help than a therapist really.
And really, now that I'm rubbing my temples, the Prophets were Clueless. They weren't reverse psychologizing Benjy, these "gods" were asking questions and he answered them revealing unto himself the truth of every matter that past is past and that is where it belongs (mostly).
He talked himself into being more well balanced. they weren't much more help than a therapist really.
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