Seperated Borg wasn't part of the scenario or original question. You're changing the paramiters of the topic/question asked to make your point. It's also a billion to one "What if?"Hugh was set free.Except that Voyager and TNG kind of nixed that idea with Hugh and Unimatrix Zero
Unimatrix Zero existed in the equivient of being in the Matrix, a dream state.
Unity then, the Borg Co-operative, with drones like the Borg there is always the possibility that they could be seperated from the whole, and if that were to happen, then they would be able to establish a resistance.
Stargate: Universe is what Voyager should've been like
- Thread starter Maxillius
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Not really, Unimatrix Zero only existed because of a billion to one "what if?", and Bashir's resistance strategy for the Federation if it fell to the Dominion was dependent on the conditions they predicted matching exactly with what would be the case several hundred years hence. While resistance to a Totallitarian state may be possible, we're talking about resistance to the dominion - their Vorta administrators are never going to question the wisdom of their leaders, neither are the Jem'Hadar soldiers - and both can be bred at a far superior rate than the entire Federation could reproduce. If the Dominion wished it could have a Jem'Hadar to assign to every single man, woman and child to make sure they fell into line.
Mainly because TNG made the Borg so dead-end in the first place. Point still is that TNG could have done stories like "Unity" or "Scorpion" and no one would complain or think they were poor stories that "ruined" the Borg.
I've already given my answer to the original question.
All this doesn't change it.
I'd still rather live under the Dominion where my chances of joining a resistance are greater than being a mindless Borg drone, where my chances are slim to none.
The problem with the Borg is a problem that comes with creating any all-powerful, seemingly unstoppable adversary- eventually, the more times they get used (which happens because they usually get popular, the mystique of that super-opponent), the more they will get degraded, because as villains, it's hard to write the heroes constantly losing or escaping from battle. That can get old and tv writers haven't taken to that concept really. (a Monty Python-esque "Run away! Run away! anytime they see a Borg cube)
If TNG's 2 classic Borg encounters ("I, Borg" was just 1 drone, and the drones retrieiving him, not a standard clash) were in VOY, they might be bashed. Using a deus ex machina to escape being entirely assimilated ("Q Who?") and conveniently stopping the Borg in the Sol solar system by a seemingly simple sleep command ("BOBW").
The more the Borg get encountered, the weaker they would get. The more Borg culture is explored, the more weakpoints would get revealed. Look at Species 8472, same degradation.
"Unity" got such a backlash because people wanted a big Borg clash, not a derelict cube & ex-Borg. They felt cheated. That prompted "Year of Hell" to be shifted from the cliffhanger to in the midst of Season 4 and "Scorpion" to get made as the Season 3 finale. People loved "Scorpion" at the time. "In the Flesh" might've colored people's hindsight on Species 8472.
It takes creative writing to have a weaker protagonist survive multiple encounters with a stronger opponent, which is above most writers' skill. I am reminded of the Batman animated series in the '90s. The Riddler appeared so rarely in there because the writers admitted it was really hard to write a good Riddler story true to the character because he's so intelligent, they felt most schemes they could devise weren't up to the caliber the character's nature demanded.
If TNG's 2 classic Borg encounters ("I, Borg" was just 1 drone, and the drones retrieiving him, not a standard clash) were in VOY, they might be bashed. Using a deus ex machina to escape being entirely assimilated ("Q Who?") and conveniently stopping the Borg in the Sol solar system by a seemingly simple sleep command ("BOBW").
The more the Borg get encountered, the weaker they would get. The more Borg culture is explored, the more weakpoints would get revealed. Look at Species 8472, same degradation.
"Unity" got such a backlash because people wanted a big Borg clash, not a derelict cube & ex-Borg. They felt cheated. That prompted "Year of Hell" to be shifted from the cliffhanger to in the midst of Season 4 and "Scorpion" to get made as the Season 3 finale. People loved "Scorpion" at the time. "In the Flesh" might've colored people's hindsight on Species 8472.
It takes creative writing to have a weaker protagonist survive multiple encounters with a stronger opponent, which is above most writers' skill. I am reminded of the Batman animated series in the '90s. The Riddler appeared so rarely in there because the writers admitted it was really hard to write a good Riddler story true to the character because he's so intelligent, they felt most schemes they could devise weren't up to the caliber the character's nature demanded.
Maybe that's why the Riddler these days is a "good guy" solving crimes before Batman for the highest bidder?
Frank Gorshin was so fucking cool.
Wait, waaa-iit a minute...
John Glover was the Riddler in the Animated show?
Wow.
Frank Gorshin was so fucking cool.
Wait, waaa-iit a minute...
John Glover was the Riddler in the Animated show?
Wow.
I thought he was considered for the lead as captain.
Tom Jackson. He's good too. I watched him on North of 60 for over a decade.
This is why I love my Kindle. Before, I never would have read such a huge block of text on a backlit screen unless I really needed to; now, I can enjoy it all on the bus, without eyestrain.
Moore makes many excellent points. VOY had good episodes, sure, but a good show as a whole? No way in heck.
When he got his own shot at making a space survival show, the only way he was able to pull it off was by doing several things that just wouldn't make sense in the Trekverse. Like having Voyager be totally alone in an empty Universe except for whoever their external enemy happened to be, or having an enemy that would be willing to actively chase one Fed ship all over the empty Universe for whatever, etc.
Saquist
Commodore
This is why I love my Kindle. Before, I never would have read such a huge block of text on a backlit screen unless I really needed to; now, I can enjoy it all on the bus, without eyestrain.
Moore makes many excellent points. VOY had good episodes, sure, but a good show as a whole? No way in heck.
That's true.
Voyager had multiple REALLY GOOD and Smart Episodes that were excellent throw back to the writing style of TNG.
The missed just about every Two parter there was (except maybe Equinox). But the series had a lot of mediocre.
But compared to DS9 it was Einstein.
DS9 had only one smart episode and relied entirely on Drama, they played loose with their own continuity at times between the Dominion, Rom is Smart, Rom is Dumb and Gold is good, Gold is useless.
Overall the Voyager series was an excellent premise that didn't remotely live up to its potential like TNG and DS9. But it's still not SGU. There is mediocre and then there is AWFUL (SGU)
Most of his suggestions from the above article dealt with dialogue: he wanted slower integration of the Maquis crew, more crew discussion of the long-term ramifications of being so far from home, more interpersonal drama in general, better continuity, including more callbacks to earlier events and character moments, more sex, etc. He also objects to Seven's costumes, the lack of plants or artwork around the ship, and the fact that we virtually never see crew in off-duty outfits. Yeah, real "unfulfillable" stuff there.
He also advocates showing damage to the ship's exterior, which might have been a significant budget expense, but I refuse to believe that it would have been impossible.
So, yeah... time to employ some new adjectives.
If he wanted slower integration of the crews, they shouldn't have made Chakotay a principled former Fleeter who WASN'T a traitor like Eddington.
Long-term ramifications? You mean like how Kirk and Picard had their crew discuss long-term ramifications when the same thing happened to them? Or were they strong enough to not need to do that while getting home?
Better continuity, big laugh considering that DS9 was just as guilty of ignoring character-altering events.
So it's okay for Moore's female Cylons to wear dinky clothing or be outright naked most of the time, but it's not okay for a female cyborg to wear a skintight outfit?
The Galactica had no plants or artwork either, he's a hypocrite.
Trek has shown that their "normal" outfits suck anyways, so there's little point. And we DID see them in normal clothing when they'd go to alien worlds for R&R, so he's being ignorant there as well.
If they were going to go with changing the ships' model every episode, then yeah it would have been too expensive. Moore only got away with it in NuBSG because CGI was cheaper then, he'd never have done it if he had to rely on physical models.
Long-term ramifications? You mean like how Kirk and Picard had their crew discuss long-term ramifications when the same thing happened to them? Or were they strong enough to not need to do that while getting home?
Better continuity, big laugh considering that DS9 was just as guilty of ignoring character-altering events.
So it's okay for Moore's female Cylons to wear dinky clothing or be outright naked most of the time, but it's not okay for a female cyborg to wear a skintight outfit?
The Galactica had no plants or artwork either, he's a hypocrite.
Trek has shown that their "normal" outfits suck anyways, so there's little point. And we DID see them in normal clothing when they'd go to alien worlds for R&R, so he's being ignorant there as well.
If they were going to go with changing the ships' model every episode, then yeah it would have been too expensive. Moore only got away with it in NuBSG because CGI was cheaper then, he'd never have done it if he had to rely on physical models.
True.
It's amazing how Miles O'Brian has no physical or lasting psychological trauma from the events of "Tribunal" or "Hard Time". He goes on in the very next eps. as if it never happened.
True.
Six still wore a cocktail dress during the entire series even when she wasn't trying to seduce Baltar. During the last season when there wasn't a need for it at all, she was still wearing one. Six' sex symbol status with the audience was just as important to nuBSG as Seven's was to Voyager.
If Voyager had no plants or art work, what were all those objects in Janeway's ready room? What were those things in her quarters? What was Kes' eating in her quarters during "Elogium"? What did Neelix use to symbolize Kes in "Mortal Coil"? What did Janeway get as a gift that kept grabbing her hair? Who exactly was Leonardo Davinci?
Considering Galactica's mining crew alone was equal in numbers to the entire crew of Voyager, the crew of nuBSG had 3x the crew rotation to have time off. With a smaller crew and 24(27?) hour crew rotation, the Voyager crew had less time for time off. So there would of course be less of a chance to see them in off duty uniforms.
I haven't seen BSG, so...
2) Suppose that BSG did fail to live up to his advice; also suppose that he was to blame. Would that retroactively affect his past statements in any way? Not unless you're bent on ad hominem criticism, no. How about reading his views and debating them on their own merits, since others in this thread, who haven't seen or made BSG, have signaled their agreement with them? Or do the alleged failures of BSG render our views meaningless, also?
1) The suggestions he made, again, pertained to how he viewed Star Trek, not any other franchise/story. Not sure what's so hard to grok here.
2) Suppose that BSG did fail to live up to his advice; also suppose that he was to blame. Would that retroactively affect his past statements in any way? Not unless you're bent on ad hominem criticism, no. How about reading his views and debating them on their own merits, since others in this thread, who haven't seen or made BSG, have signaled their agreement with them? Or do the alleged failures of BSG render our views meaningless, also?
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