Starfleet...Military or Not

[Cyke101]

One thing about Kirk as Admiral. While most hold that he is a Rear Admiral (either a renamed rank of Commadore, or a two star Admiral), but he holds the position of Chief of Starfleet Operations. If that is like the US Navy's Chief of Naval Operations, that is a full Admirals job. A top admiral's job. Fleet Admiral if you have one. This is the senior military officer of the Department of the Navy. If that translates to Starfleet, than Kirk was promoted a lot from Captain and someone thinks he can do the job, with Nogura being either the Secretary of the Navy, or the admiral in charge of Earth's fleet (or just the deployment of the Constitutions).

When you put it that way, I'm wondering if there's a Vice Chief of Starfleet Operations who's actually doing the bulk of the work instead of Kirk, since he's so bored with the cushy desk job.

Also, full admiral in two years makes nuKirk's promotion less unbelievable now. "How many cliffs do I have to hang from to get THAT job? Sign me up!"

 

[Kor]

Also, full admiral in two years makes nuKirk's promotion less unbelievable now. "How many cliffs do I have to hang from to get THAT job? Sign me up!"

I was just thinking the same thing. Overall, I thought that ST09 treated getting command of a ship more like becoming a fighter pilot a la "Top Gun," instead of becoming captain of the whole carrier.

Kirk apparently had the rank of Lieutenant when he stowed away aboard the Enterprise, while still a cadet at the academy. I guess the rank makes sense, since Saavik was a Lieutenant when she took the Kobayashi Maru test.

So at the end of ST09 he had skipped the ranks of Lt. Cmdr. and Cmdr. to become Captain. And I would hope that as a condition of this appointment, they made him cram a couple hundred credit hours of command school.

Also, I just remembered a TNG episode from season two, where Picard specifically says that Starfleet is not a military organization. I can't remember which episode, though... I think I watched the whole season in about a week.

Kor

 

[J.T.B.]

Even in today's military, a higher rank doesn't always doesn't always leave you in charge. The chain of command is essentially an order of precedence of who takes charge in what order. If for example, a navy ship has a Lieutenant who is in the chain of command and a Commander who is not, the Lieutenant is in command, not the Commander.

Yes, but on a ship the chain of command is every line officer assigned to the ship, in order of seniority. So if the captain and XO with rank of commander are knocked out, the next senior-most commander would take over, then down through the commanders to the senior-most lieutenant commander and so on down.

Of course this might not go so smoothly in battle. A famous example is the USS San Francisco at the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, when the admiral, captain, exec and all commanders were killed or wounded. The most senior lieutenant commander was the damage control officer, but he had his hands full trying to save the ship, so he told the senior officer on the bridge, communications officer LCdr Bruce McCandless, to keep the conn. McCandless got the Medal of Honor.

One thing about Kirk as Admiral. While most hold that he is a Rear Admiral (either a renamed rank of Commadore, or a two star Admiral), but he holds the position of Chief of Starfleet Operations. If that is like the US Navy's Chief of Naval Operations, that is a full Admirals job. A top admiral's job. Fleet Admiral if you have one. This is the senior military officer of the Department of the Navy. If that translates to Starfleet, than Kirk was promoted a lot from Captain and someone thinks he can do the job, with Nogura being either the Secretary of the Navy, or the admiral in charge of Earth's fleet (or just the deployment of the Constitutions).

For historical reasons the USN uses the title of Chief of Naval Operations for what would be called the chief of naval staff in many countries. What Kirk's actual position is is a fair question, but the relationship with Nogura makes it clear he's not at the very top. Going by the FJ Technical Manual org charts, Chief of Operations is a pretty high honcho, just below Starfleet Chief of Staff and in charge of all operating forces.

I personally don't think he's that high up, but more of a mid-level staff/planning position. For one thing, he could just abandon his job, which makes it not seem that crucial. And the rank of rear admiral doesn't leave many levels below to fit well with the FJ idea. I figure he's more like the old DCNO (Operations), which was a vice admiral post, or the WW2 COMINCH Assistant Chief of Staff (Operations), a rear admiral. The WW2 Royal Navy Director of Operations was a captain, as memorably depicted in Sink the Bismarck.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Then again, the attack just proved once again that Earth is the least safe place in the entire universe for civilians to live on!

On the other hand.

Families on Earth were fine at the end of it, while families on the ships at Wolf 359 were dead, injured, and/or likely suffering cases of PTSD after watching friends and family die while their home exploded around them.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, full admiral in two years makes nuKirk's promotion less unbelievable now. "How many cliffs do I have to hang from to get THAT job? Sign me up!"

I was just thinking the same thing. Overall, I thought that ST09 treated getting command of a ship more like becoming a fighter pilot a la "Top Gun," instead of becoming captain of the whole carrier.

Kirk apparently had the rank of Lieutenant when he stowed away aboard the Enterprise, while still a cadet at the academy. I guess the rank makes sense, since Saavik was a Lieutenant when she took the Kobayashi Maru test.

So at the end of ST09 he had skipped the ranks of Lt. Cmdr. and Cmdr. to become Captain. And I would hope that as a condition of this appointment, they made him cram a couple hundred credit hours of command school.

Also, I just remembered a TNG episode from season two, where Picard specifically says that Starfleet is not a military organization. I can't remember which episode, though... I think I watched the whole season in about a week.

Kor

"Peak Performance" is the episode you are thinking of. If you want to revisit it. Or, for more fun, just visit SFDebris review of the episode and his rant on this topic

 

[T'Girl]

I like the family on the ship thing, even if it's not all that logical.

Having families aboard Starfleet vessels would apparently still be policy during DS9. When the Defiant first arrived Sisko mentioned that there were no facilities for families. If there were not longer families aboard Starfleet vessels, why would he say that?

 

[Tallguy]

Having seen Beyond I will now concede that Starfleet is not military.

What is a good word for "armed to the teeth, trained in combat, able to stand toe to toe with OTHER military forces, and the Federation's first and last line of defense"?

NOT military.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Having seen Beyond I will now concede that Starfleet is not military.

What is a good word for "armed to the teeth, trained in combat, able to stand toe to toe with OTHER military forces, and the Federation's first and last line of defense"?

NOT military.

Didn't care for that line.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Speaking of reviving old threads and worn-out topics...

 

[Tallguy]

Speaking of reviving old threads and worn-out topics...

I figured Beyond adds a new nugget. Plus I've heard this brought up in several places in the last six months.

And I really really want the new word.

 

[1001001]

This topic is over a year without replies, and it seems more a discussion specifically of the new movie.

Closing.