Starfleet...Military or Not

[Ithekro]

That universal translator is a wonderful thing. Translates whatever they are saying in Starfleet to English even if they aren't actaully speaking English (unless one is watching a dub in another language of course). Until they adjusted it to not translate Klingon at all times.

 

[Push The Button]

So after 100 or so posts, it seems the more appropriate question(s) is:

What country's Armed Forces does Starfleet most resemble?

or

What branch of the Armed Forces does Starfleet most resemble?

"We're a combined service."
-Kirk explaining UESPA to Captain Christopher, Tomorrow is Yesterday.

 

[Stoo]

Starfleet pretty clearly has a military role. How militaristic it is depends on which era we're watching, and it doesn't function exactly like a navy of today.

Picard was captaining a massive flying hotel full of children, barbers, bar staff and scientists. And there are probably several things he would rather think himself as being, before a soldier. Like explorer, or archaeologist. But he's also captaining a ship carrying lots of massive guns with a role of protecting the federation from external threats.

Who exactly defends Earth from external threats in the 22nd century?

Apparently, no one. In the two scenarios where the Xindi weapon showed up (alternate timeline in Twilight, real deal in Zero Hour) there are no Earth defenses on hand despite the fact they would have spent a year expecting a massive weapon to show up. In Twilight, Earth's only protection is the NX-01 which followed the weapon from the Expanse (although the script also included a Vulcan ship which was removed due to budget) and in Zero Hour just one Andorian ship.

In the Expanse, when NX01 was attacked within the Solar System by a Klingon BoP, we saw Intrepid and those two wedge-shaped ships come to the rescue.

 

[MacLeod]

Earth always seems to be woefully under defended. Considering that it is the defacto captial, has one of the main shipyards withing the Sol system.

 

[The Wormhole]

In the Expanse, when NX01 was attacked within the Solar System by a Klingon BoP, we saw Intrepid and those two wedge-shaped ships come to the rescue.

And where were they when the Xindi weapon showed up in Zero Hour? Where were the Vulcans? Why was only one Andorian ship on hand? Hell, two episodes later when the NX-01 does return to Earth, they are greeted by a massive Starfleet/Vulcan joint fleet.

 

[T'Girl]

That universal translator is a wonderful thing. Translates whatever they are saying in Starfleet to English even if they aren't actaully speaking English

Bread and Circuses says that they are speaking English.

In how many languages that you know of does the word for "Son," and the word for "Sun" sound exactly the same?

 

[hux]

Starfleet is entirely militaristic.

A captains job is to seek out potential allies for the Federation and strong arm them into joining paradise. When have they ever gone to a planet, shook hands, made friends and NOT had these people eventually join the Federation at some later date (only those with equal or greater power aren't interested)

Why do you think they implemented a policy of not contacting non-warp civilisations (nothing to offer)

The whole point is to increase their power base and they do so in the most brilliantly effective way. They politely invite you to join paradise and convince you that it was actually your idea all along

The Romulan/Cardassian etc technique of conquering only produces animosity and dissent. The Federation technique is slower but gets better results

Picard: Hello, we're here to make friends because we're explorers. You have no obligation to join our Federation whatsoever. We come in peace

*Six months later*

Generic captain: oh hi, I'm a generic Federation captain. You met our colleague captain Picard six months ago. So. Does having a very powerful friend with advanced technology interest you?

 

[Stoo]

And where were they when the Xindi weapon showed up in Zero Hour?

No idea! Just pointing out one time they were actually around to help.

Those early ships weren't long range explorers, since NX01 was the first, and had to trundle around at about warp 2 so getting just from one star system to another would take months. So I imagine hanging around earth (or the first colonies) patrolling for threats was one of their major duties. Basically I'm agreeing with your earlier statement that 22nd Century starfleet also had a military role.

 

[Lance]

Starfleet pretty clearly has a military role. How militaristic it is depends on which era we're watching, and it doesn't function exactly like a navy of today.

Picard was captaining a massive flying hotel full of children, barbers, bar staff and scientists. And there are probably several things he would rather think himself as being, before a soldier. Like explorer, or archaeologist. But he's also captaining a ship carrying lots of massive guns with a role of protecting the federation from external threats.

And when the chips are down, such as when there is some kind of a full scale invasion of the Alpha Quadrant, then suddenly we find a lot of these notions about Starfleet not being a military being put aside, as the fleet mobilises and a kind of 'basic training' kicks in.

94% of the time Starfleet has got a peaceful mission statement. The remaining 6% is when we see how much they really are a military underneath all the pretensions about being otherwise.

 

[T'Girl]

^ if you think about it, if starfleet truly wasn't the military, why don't they basically "get out of the way" during times of conflict so as the federation's real military can fight the battles?

given the large numbers of open wars, conflicts, border wars, random fire fights the federation gets involve in, surely the federation would have a military force waiting in the wings.

a military other than starfleet.

 

[MacLeod]

Peace through superior weaponary.

 

[Ithekro]

Those early ships weren't long range explorers, since NX01 was the first, and had to trundle around at about warp 2 so getting just from one star system to another would take months. So I imagine hanging around earth (or the first colonies) patrolling for threats was one of their major duties. Basically I'm agreeing with your earlier statement that 22nd Century starfleet also had a military role.

Depends on where in the solar systems those ships were at the time. Assuming the timeline is accurate, it is February 14, 2154. If ships are stationed anyplace but Earth, at Warp Factor 2 it will take several minutes to arrive once a warning gets out. The Weapon seems to cause some interference with communications, though how powerful it is is unclear. Archer's group has something like ten minutes to stop the weapon. The High Speed Andorian ship makes it in time. The Vulcans would seem to be out of position. Maybe it was not logical to them to be that close, or they had issues due to the Andorian ship? But for the Earth ships...

Mars in on the opposite side of the Sun on this date. Over 2 AU away and with a stellar body between Mars and Earth. Without the stellar body it would take a Warp 2 ship over two minutes to reach Earth. With having to go around the Sun, three minutes?

Venus is on the other side of the Sun as well and is 1.5 AU away. So given the manuever, two minutes away as soon as they get a warning.

(It is unlikely they would have ships at Mercury, though it is only 1 AU away so only a minute at Warp Factor 2)

Jupiter is also on the other side of the Solar System from Earth and is over 5 AU away. At Warp 2 that is over five minutes away.

Saturn is near closest approach to Earth, but is still 8 AU away, so any ships there would take just over eight minutes to reach Earth.

Ships that are any farther out that can't make better than Warp 2 will not make it to Earth before the planet is destroyed. Even at Warp 3 it would take 9 or so minutes to get to Earth from Neptune.

 

[Cyke101]

I think part (not primarily) of this doubt of Starfleet being military is that we don't really see anything where basic training -- or the Academy -- is as strict as or disciplined as today's military training. Yes, all the officers on the shows more or less act and behave in the way that's expected of them (or chewed out when they're not), but we rarely see them being whipped into shape. Even Wesley was a model cadet, and he's far from the most disciplined or rigid of the bunch.

But again, that falls into the expectation that the military must be a tough as nails process that chews out the weak and builds up the strong into an elite fighting force. That may not be the case with Starfleet, especially if it's a military that stresses so much of its philosophy on education and exploration. That's also not to say that Starfleet Academy isn't as rigorous -- it could very well be that their rigorousness takes a different form than today's training.

 

[IrishNero]

I assure you that today's military academies are extremely heavy on academics, and emphasize philosophy, mathematics and history as well as military tactics. They're extremely competitive, and are consistently some of the hardest schools for which you may apply and get into.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We know that the Xindi weapon had a pilot - maybe part of his duty was to fire on any Earth ships that he encountered. That may be why there was no resistance when we actually see the weapon deploy - the pilot had destroyed it all.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think the Starfleet being a combined service may best explain why Starfleet would not be legitimately seen as a military.

Space is vast, and it takes time to travel from place to place. It could take weeks just to reach a certain place for humanitarian relief.

So why not use the ships that will already be out there for those things?

Combine aid, humanitarian relief, settlement, patrol, exploration, defense into one service.

But the actual episodes says it's impractical. There are some flaws. Main headquarters devoid of ships and left frequently undefended. (BOBW, Breen attack, Trek Movies)

--Only able to muster 12 or so ships in an emergency military situation. (Klingon attack on DS9, Dominion threats)

And then the other problems--Starfleet personnel are so pacifist, they seem really reluctant to fight until it's almost too late.

This seem to be in line with the TNG utopian idea of transforming the military into ships filled mainly with scientists and families who are in it mainly to pursue their scientific careers in luxury.

They want to wear the uniform and enjoy it's privileges, but almost refuse to embrace the realistic side of defense.

 

[Cyke101]

I assure you that today's military academies are extremely heavy on academics, and emphasize philosophy, mathematics and history as well as military tactics. They're extremely competitive, and are consistently some of the hardest schools for which you may apply and get into.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what we see with usual media depictions; and ultimately, Star Trek itself is a media depiction of an idealized future. It doesn't jibe with the common popular perception of the military, hence why I would suggest the disconnect for the folks who don't believe that Starfleet is indeed military (including some of the writers, who themselves help create those representations).

 

[T'Girl]

And where were they when the Xindi weapon showed up in Zero Hour?

If the Xindi weapon appears somewhere inside the orbit of the moon, that's 5.79×10^16 cubic miles of volume, now take into account the accurate firing range of Earth ships (and satellites?). It possible that the ships were there, just not close enough to do anything in a limited period of time. And since Earth apparently had interstellar ships of other species coming and going, the Xindi sphere couldn't be fired on immediately, it would have to be identified first.

Those early ships weren't long range explorers, since NX01 was the first, and had to trundle around at about warp 2 so getting just from one star system to another would take months. So I imagine hanging around earth (or the first colonies) patrolling for threats was one of their major duties.

Very likely they weren't primarily explorers owing to the the Enterprise being the first ... or at least the first dedicated explorer. As with later Starfleet vessels, they might have been multi-mission ships, basically doing whatever needed to be done at the time.

As far as being "warp 2," I wonder. Obviously they would have been slower than warp 5 at the time of the Enterprise's launch, but could they have already been warp 3.5 or warp 4? Certainly they would do better than the civilian freighters.

at Warp Factor 2

Even if they were prior to the NX-01, how long would they stay that way? Once the more advanced propulsion was proven by the NX-01 wouldn't other Starfleet vessels be retrofitted with the new reactors and new engines? Yes Starfleet was building a second NX, but would the existing starships retain their original engines?

The starships that came to the Enterprise rescue in The Expanse had two years to be upgraded.

 

[Tim Walker]

Came across discussion on the space battles forum. Interesting argument in favor of a fleet of Defiants.

 

[Darkwing]

TOS Starfleet was based on the Napoleonic era Royal Navy of Horatio Hornblower, for the situation, but using the structure of the 1960s US Navy for the viewers to understand. In TOS, Starfleet was explicitly the military, up through the TOS movies.
In TNG, suddenly Puicard claims, with no evidence, that Starfleet is NOT the military.

*Starfleet has never performed any mission that the real world military has not, leaving out the translation from sea to space.
*Military structure, ranks, and discipline (regs and courts-martial)
*military mission
*lack of right of innocent passage - IOW, only a national warship being found in another nation's territory is causus belli, or cause for war. Civilian ships have right of innocent passage, so you can't use them as a pretext for war unless you can demonstrate internationally that they were used to conduct espionage for the national government of the nation you want to fight.
For these, and other reasons, I think the only rational thing to do is assume Roddenberry was having a senior moment, which caused Picard to lie to Offenhouse out of picque, and otherwise ignore the nonsense.