Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Tenacity]

If Starfleet were meant to be a military, why do the writers time and again go out of their way to state that it isn't?

If Starfleet is meant to be the military, why do the writer keep showing Starfleet fighting wars, deliberately going up against opponents militaries, having military courts, having military stockades, engaging in military training, referring to officers commissions, possessing a overtly military rank structure (and a Western one at that).

Picard said not a military in a episode in which the Enterprise is ordered to engage in a war game.

 

[GabyBee]

hostel threats

Every time I visit Denmark...

If Starfleet is meant to be the military, why do the writer keep showing Starfleet fighting wars, deliberately going up against opponents militaries, having military courts, having military stockades, engaging in military training, referring to officers commissions, possessing a overtly military rank structure (and a Western one at that).

Picard said not a military in a episode in which the Enterprise is ordered to engage in a war game.

Just because it looks like a duck, and acts like a duck, doesn't automatically mean that it is a duck.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If Starfleet is meant to be the military, why do the writer keep showing Starfleet fighting wars, deliberately going up against opponents militaries, having military courts, having military stockades, engaging in military training, referring to officers commissions, possessing a overtly military rank structure (and a Western one at that).

Picard said not a military in a episode in which the Enterprise is ordered to engage in a war game.

^ Kind of refuting your own argument, aren't you? "Peak Performance" is the episode that EXPLICITLY tells us that Starfleet does all of these things and is still not a military organization. That's only strange to people who assume that soldiers in a war HAVE to be part of the military. The Flying Tigers in WWII, for example, initially began as a mercenary squadron before being transferred to the command of the Chinese and finally U.S. military by 1942. There's also the mercenary units that fought in the Spanish Civil War and helped to overthrow Mussolini in Italy.

 

[GabyBee]

The Spanish Civil War saw anarchists fighting in support of the Republican government against a right wing military insurrection. You can't get into a more semantically paradoxical situation...

And I'm a Spaniard. It still hurts my brain to think about.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The Spanish Civil War saw anarchists fighting in support of the Republican government against a right wing military insurrection. You can't get into a more semantically paradoxical situation...

And I'm a Spaniard. It still hurts my brain to think about.

"On second thought, let's not talk about the Spanish Civil War. It is a silly place..."
- Every Historian Ever

 

[Ithekro]

We hear about other starships from time to time that are not Galaxy-class ships that are also exploring. Commander Riker was offered command or at least two such ships that were exploring, the third's (USS Melbourne) mission was undefined as it seemed to be promptly destroyed by the Borg. Much later he takes command of USS Titan, which likely has a similar mission set as Enterprise. USS Drake was investigating Minos system when it was destroyed. USS Aries was on a deep space exploration missions most the time we hear about it. The other few times it is joining up to help USS Enterprise near Romulan space.

We know that USS Olympia was on an eight year exploration mission prior to the Dominion War. There are likely many others discussed in passing during the many years of TNG and DS9, plus some older references in VOY as people talk about earlier missions, and assignments.

 

[GabyBee]

Once a year, the family of Francisco Franco gathers at his tomb to remember his passing. The other 364 days, Spaniards gather at his tomb to make sure that he is still dead.

 

[GabyBee]

We hear about other starships from time to time that are not Galaxy-class ships that are also exploring. Commander Riker was offered command or at least two such ships that were exploring, the third's (USS Melbourne) mission was undefined as it seemed to be promptly destroyed by the Borg. Much later he takes command of USS Titan, which likely has a similar mission set as Enterprise. USS Drake was investigating Minos system when it was destroyed. USS Aries was on a deep space exploration missions most the time we hear about it. The other few times it is joining up to help USS Enterprise near Romulan space.

We know that USS Olympia was on an eight year exploration mission prior to the Dominion War. There are likely many others discussed in passing during the many years of TNG and DS9, plus some older references in VOY as people talk about earlier missions, and assignments.

U.S.S. Al-Batani conducted the Arias Expedition...

U.S.S. Lexington being assigned to insterstellar charting...

And U.S.S. Prometheus being assigned to support Professor Gideon Seyetik's project to re-ignite the dead star Epsilon 119...

Also,

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20121210232342&path-prefix=en

Quite a few ships assigned to deep space exploration there.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20140205111701&path-prefix=en

And yet more...

 

[Ithekro]

That mission to Alderaan though....

 

[Ralphis]

Every time I visit Denmark...

I meant 'hostile'. I blame my phone.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

It does clearly include a military ROLE for some of its members, either because they're trained for it or because they're a military contribution TO it (or both). This would explain why Kirk can say "I'm a soldier" and O'Brien can say "I'm an engineer" and Bones can say "I'm a doctor" without actually speaking for the totality of what their parent agency really is

Hmm, perhaps if there was some way to separate between the three. Perhaps if each department wore a different colored tunic? Nah, forget it, that's silly!

 

[cultcross]

That mission to Alderaan though....

It's diplomatic in nature. Something to do with a member of the imperial senate.

 

[fireproof78]

It's always worked for me to think of Starfleet being a hybrid military/space agency service. There are ships assigned to scientific research and exploratory missions, and those crews would probably think of themselves as explorers. And then there are ships assigned to militaristic missions, like patrolling the a neutral zone, or responding to hostel threats. It's just a matter of what best serves the story.

Exactly.

That's something I hadn't even thought of before... it could be the idea that Starfleet is a "combined service" is that it LITERALLY combines both military and non-military components into a single command structure and assign them to the same mission.

It would be like if you formed an exploration team made up of three marines, three astrophysicists, three State Department officials, three NASA astronauts with spacewalk experience, three computer engineers, three air force fighter pilots (to help run the space ship) and then put a guy from the Richmond Police Department in charge of the whole thing because he's really good at organizing group projects.

Starfleet doesn't seem to care about its legal status except that it knows that it hasn't been given the status of a military organization. It does clearly include a military ROLE for some of its members, either because they're trained for it or because they're a military contribution TO it (or both). This would explain why Kirk can say "I'm a soldier" and O'Brien can say "I'm an engineer" and Bones can say "I'm a doctor" without actually speaking for the totality of what their parent agency really is (the Enterprise, after all, is not an ambulance).

That's been my point all along.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It's always worked for me to think of Starfleet being a hybrid military/space agency service. There are ships assigned to scientific research and exploratory missions, and those crews would probably think of themselves as explorers. And then there are ships assigned to militaristic missions, like patrolling the a neutral zone, or responding to hostel threats. It's just a matter of what best serves the story.

That's something I hadn't even thought of before... it could be the idea that Starfleet is a "combined service" is that it LITERALLY combines both military and non-military components into a single command structure and assign them to the same mission.

It would be like if you formed an exploration team made up of three marines, three astrophysicists, three State Department officials, three NASA astronauts with spacewalk experience, three computer engineers, three air force fighter pilots (to help run the space ship) and then put a guy from the Richmond Police Department in charge of the whole thing because he's really good at organizing group projects.

Starfleet doesn't seem to care about its legal status except that it knows that it hasn't been given the status of a military organization. It does clearly include a military ROLE for some of its members, either because they're trained for it or because they're a military contribution TO it (or both). This would explain why Kirk can say "I'm a soldier" and O'Brien can say "I'm an engineer" and Bones can say "I'm a doctor" without actually speaking for the totality of what their parent agency really is (the Enterprise, after all, is not an ambulance).

I'm fine with all of the above.

 

[The Old Mixer]

That's exactly my point. Because what ACTUALLY happened was that Mike accidentally shot Marcus in the ass during a drug bust at the beginning of the movie. Because these two guys are actually Miami PD detectives.

But someone who doesn't know their history and background -- like, for example, everyone in the video store who overheard this conversation -- would have to conclude that they're a couple of very gay men having a private moment. This is why context matters.

And that's also why it's a gratuitous example to use in this discussion. And unlike the rest of this thread, this is not a debate.

 

[The Old Mixer]

U.S.S. Al-Batani conducted the Arias Expedition...

U.S.S. Lexington being assigned to insterstellar charting...

And U.S.S. Prometheus being assigned to support Professor Gideon Seyetik's project to re-ignite the dead star Epsilon 119...

Also,

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20121210232342&path-prefix=en

Quite a few ships assigned to deep space exploration there.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/3/37/Starfleet_Mission_Status,_2367.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140205111701&path-prefix=en

And yet more...

If you don't know what hotlinking is, just stop posting images. It's a stupid thing to have to hand out a warning for, but if I have to edit one more of your posts, expect me to hand one out.

 

[C57D]

It's always worked for me to think of Starfleet being a hybrid military/space agency service. There are ships assigned to scientific research and exploratory missions, and those crews would probably think of themselves as explorers. And then there are ships assigned to militaristic missions, like patrolling the a neutral zone, or responding to hostel threats. It's just a matter of what best serves the story.

In the FASA ST RPG Starfleet has Exploration, Millitary, Colonisation, Commerce, Outpost, Academy and Starbase divisions. But (it being set during TOS) the Starship/Connie class are a seperate division able to do it all. This for me has (since 1985 odd) been my headcanon for how Starfleet operates.

 

[BillJ]

I know I talked to the US Navy multiple times while my oldest son was in high school, they wanted him for their Nuclear Engineering program. Never once was the term soldier used.

 

[GabyBee]

If you don't know what hotlinking is, just stop posting images. It's a stupid thing to have to hand out a warning for, but if I have to edit one more of your posts, expect me to hand one out.

I wasn't aware that posting images was prohibited, but fair enough...

 

[BillJ]

I wasn't aware that posting images was prohibited, but fair enough...

Posting images isn't, hotlinking is.