Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Crazy Eddie]

"The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club". --Chancellor Azetbur

Now now, whatever your opinion of Azetbur may be, her statement is not open to interpretation. It is meant to be taken at face value.

No it isn't. It's meant to be interpreted as the expression of Klingon Butthurt that it so obviously is. Just like when the Klingon Ambassador calls Genesis a "doomsday weapon" and calls the destruction of the reliant the "test detonation" of the weapon.

Really, the wrangling over Starfleet's military status is PERFECTLY mirrored by the debate over the status of Genesis. The Klingons are convinced that Genesis is a weapon of mass destruction and "fuck you" to anyone who says it isn't. We've come to learn that Carol Marcus used to be a Starfleet weapons specialized, and she and her team even had concerns about Genesis being "perverted" into a dreadful weapon. But the TRUTH is that Genesis wasn't developed as a weapon; even though it is deployed like a weapon, can be used like a weapon, and what it does is functionally the same as what a weapon can do, its PURPOSE is to quickly terraform previously dead planets. The fact that you CAN use Genesis to wipe out your mortal enemy and replace his home world with a giant Disney theme park at the touch of a button doesn't change what Genesis really is.

 

[GabyBee]

So then you openly admit you are dismissing canon evidence for Starfleet being the military?

No, I am acknowledging the canon evidence provided by characters that live in the Star Trek universe. You are the one dismissing those characters' statements based on a pre-conceived conclusion.

 

[Prax]

Nichelle's statement proves that Starfleet is portrayed as a military.
NASA itself comes from the Air Force and still works closely with it. All of it's astronauts come from the Air Force or the Navy. The first civilian astronaut to space was in the 80's. The technology enabling space flight also comes from the military. And so on. SF is an armed force with a uniform code of military justice. That is "canon."

The Federation was created as an alliance. This alliance was born out of war. War between the founding members, and war from external threats. The other Founding members of the Federation all had space militaries.

 

[GabyBee]

Then why has Starfleet never explicitly been referred to as a military organization in on-screen dialogue, but has repeatedly been identified as a non-military organization?

 

[Prax]

I must leave this place for good. It's literally eating up my time. If I return, please tell me to go away.

Goodbye cruel thread.

 

[fireproof78]

Propaganda.

 

[BillJ]

No, I am acknowledging the canon evidence provided by characters that live in the Star Trek universe. You are the one dismissing those characters' statements based on a pre-conceived conclusion.

I'm dismissing their claims because the vast amount of canon evidence that shows Starfleet is the military.

West Point (Army Academy)/Starfleet Academy
Army Corps of Engineers/Starfleet Corps of Engineers
Army Intelligence/Starfleet Intelligence

For a franchise trying to show that Starfleet isn't the military, they use a surprising amount of real world military jargon, structure and mission type.

 

[Prax]

Then why has Starfleet never explicitly been referred to as a military organization in on-screen dialogue, but has repeatedly been identified as a non-military organization?

It has. You just aren't willing to accept it. See page 1.

I mean it now. I'm leaving

 

[fireproof78]

I'm dismissing their claims because the vast amount of canon evidence that shows Starfleet is the military.

West Point (Army Academy)/Starfleet Academy
Army Corps of Engineers/Starfleet Corps of Engineers
Army Intelligence/Starfleet Intelligence

For a franchise trying to show that Starfleet isn't the military, they use a surprising amount of real world military jargon, structure and mission type.

Nope, not a military. And I'll court-martial you for saying it.

 

[Tenacity]

Yes, it has Admirals. These are two things that have been reconciled using real-world precedents.

Being a "General Contractor" does not make that person a General who possess the power to order subordinates into a combat situation.

Starfleet Admirals possess the power to order subordinates into combat situations.

When has Starfleet EVER shown that it has a "phasers first" policy when it comes to conflict resolution?

In A Taste of Armageddon, Federation ambassado Fox said this; "Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it."

Later the ambassador said "You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it."

In case you don't know, a treaty port is access which is established in a foreign county through force and the treat of force. The Federation was going to force the Eminiar government to sign a treaty that would allow the Federation access to their territory, whether the Eminiar government wanted it or not.

The Federation Council could be quite ruthless when it was in their best interests to be so. They had no problem moving the Indians off their planet in Journey's End for the Federation's benefit, and doing the same later with the Baku.

Once the Council had the cure for the sickness Section 31 infect the Founders with, the Council had no problem withholding the cure.

Or, Picard and Scott are simply wrong.

It's been noted in the past that Picard sometimes lives in a bubble of his own evolved sensibilities.

I don't think one can join an organization, serve for years and then simply flip a switch and be ready to go off and die for the cause.

I would have had no problem with Star Trek if they never showed Starfleet engaging in any military activity. Starfleet could have been either a completely civilian organization (maybe through a university) that explored space, or possibly a government department that did the some.

The ships might have some minor weapons for self-defense, but not anything that would be "enough to blast half a continent."

Any episode that smacked of Starfleet engaging in even the tiniest military activity would be missing. The Federation engaging in war would simply not be mentioned.

But that doesn't describe the Starfleet that we were shown.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I just don't think you can compartmentalize being "military". I don't think one can join an organization, serve for years and then simply flip a switch and be ready to go off and die for the cause. Likely, committing heinous acts for the cause.

Why not? Army reservists do it all the time. Their military service is VERY compartmentalized, right up until the moment they're called to active duty. You'd be surprised how quickly people can rise to the occasion when they need to.

It is incredibly tough on soldiers who have it ingrained into their very being that they could die on a moments notice or be asked to kill others, to have the expectation that humans could turn that on or off, I simply think it doesn't work.

And Star Trek itself dealt with this issue in "The Hunted" with the Angosian Super Soldiers. To a certain extent, it also touched on this issue in "The Wounded" where Captain Maxwell found it too difficult to accept the detente between the Federation and Cardassia (and as we found out in later years, he wasn't even WRONG)

So yes, it's hard, but it's also dooable. Not everyone is able to make the transition from "professional killer" to "literally anything else" with ease, but I have to think that the inability to do this would be one of the things Starfleet tries to filter out, which might be why their academy entrance exams include a "psyche test" that demonstrates your responses under stressful situations.

Not to toot my own horn, but in the Kelvinverse "Guide to Starfleet" I was working on I made a point to illustrate that Starfleet officers are basically expected to be able to conduct detailed scientific analysis even in the middle of a battlefield, because half the time that analysis is going to make the difference between survival and death for his entire crew. One imagines a squad of Starfleet scientists blasting their way into a sealed vault to extract some extremely rare data archives on a planet that the Klingons are just hours away from conquering; the data in those archives might prove invaluable to the Federation AND it would provide a record for galactic history that would be lost to echoes otherwise; Starfleet is the only organization in the galaxy that would send a squad of heavily armed scientists on a crazy stunt like that AND be able to justify it in the context of their own organization.

 

[BillJ]

I would have had no problem with Star Trek if they never showed Starfleet engaging in any military activity. Starfleet could have been either a completely civilian organization (maybe through a university) that explored space, or possibly a government department that did the some.

Exactly. If Roddenberry truly wanted Starfleet to not be confused with the military, there were roads he could've went down. But he didn't, he showed us a Starfleet that was very much the defense arm of the Federation. There was simply easier drama to mine from war stories/military structure.

Spock wouldn't be fighting for his life if he stole the Enterprise from the American Continent Institute.

 

[fireproof78]

Being a "General Contractor" does not make that person a General who possess the power to order subordinates into a combat situation.

Starfleet Admirals possess the power to order subordinates into combat situations.

In A Taste of Armageddon, Federation ambassado Fox said this; "Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it."

Later the ambassador said "You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it."

In case you don't know, a treaty port is access which is established in a foreign county through force and the treat of force. The Federation was going to force the Eminiar government to sign a treaty that would allow the Federation access to their territory, whether the Eminiar government wanted it or not.

The Federation Council could be quite ruthless when it was in their best interests to be so. They had no problem moving the Indians off their planet in Journey's End for the Federation's benefit, and doing the same later with the Baku.

Once the Council had the cure for the sickness Section 31 infect the Founders with, the Council had no problem withholding the cure.It's been noted in the past that Picard sometimes lives in a bubble of his own evolved sensibilities. I would have had no problem with Star Trek if they never showed Starfleet engaging in any military activity. Starfleet could have been either a completely civilian organization (maybe through a university) that explored space, or possibly a government department that did the some.

The ships might have some minor weapons for self-defense, but not anything that would be "enough to blast half a continent."

Any episode that smacked of Starfleet engaging in even the tiniest military activity would be missing. The Federation engaging in war would simply not be mentioned.

But that doesn't describe the Starfleet that we were shown.

Indeed. It is not enough that characters say that "Starfleet isn't a military." They're behavior must demonstrate it to be true as well. And, Starfleet's behavior, organization, and power are consistent with real world historical navies, both past and present.

They are also able to engage war efforts without prior authorization from the Federation Council, indicating that they have the power all along, legally. This means their behavior is government sanctioned.

They are also and exploration agency. Ergo, "combined service" meaning both military and non--military missions.

Not to toot my own horn, but in the Kelvinverse "Guide to Starfleet" I was working on I made a point to illustrate that Starfleet officers are basically expected to be able to conduct detailed scientific analysis even in the middle of a battlefield, because half the time that analysis is going to make the difference between survival and death for his entire crew. One imagines a squad of Starfleet scientists blasting their way into a sealed vault to extract some extremely rare data archives on a planet that the Klingons are just hours away from conquering; the data in those archives might prove invaluable to the Federation AND it would provide a record for galactic history that would be lost to echoes otherwise; Starfleet is the only organization in the galaxy that would send a squad of heavily armed scientists on a crazy stunt like that AND be able to justify it in the context of their own organization.

I would watch that series for hours on end.

Exactly. If Roddenberry truly wanted Starfleet to not be confused with the military, there were roads he could've went down. But he didn't, he showed us a Starfleet that was very much the defense arm of the Federation. There was simply easier drama to mine from war stories.

And, initially, he did. "The Cage" had a more simplified ranking system, more consistent with books of the time like "Space Cadet" and a different attitude. But, that changed and the series proper saw Kirk and company behaving far more like the Navy than a Merchant Marine service.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So then you openly admit you are dismissing canon evidence for Starfleet being the military?

There's canon evidence for Starfleet being an exploration fleet with a military role; that this makes them "the military" is one possible interpretation of that evidence.

In order to hold that interpretation, however, one must ignore the canon evidence that Starfleet IS NOT a military organization. This makes the interpretation counter-factual, even if it is the one you prefer to believe.

Preferences. however, are not canon. The evidence supports Starfleet having a military role, but "Starfleet is not a military organization" is also canon.

 

[BillJ]

And, initially, he did. "The Cage" had a more simplified ranking system, more consistent with books of the time like "Space Cadet" and a different attitude. But, that changed and the series proper saw Kirk and company behaving far more like the Navy than a Merchant Marine service.

Having enough power to "blast half a continent" tells me Starfleet wasn't playing with retail, civilian grade weapons.

 

[BillJ]

Preferences. however, are not canon. The evidence supports Starfleet having a military role, but "Starfleet is not a military organization" is also canon.

We know that when they negotiated the treaty with the Cardassians, they negotiated under the idea that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation.

It is quoted above.

 

[fireproof78]

There's canon evidence for Starfleet being an exploration fleet with a military role; that this makes them "the military" is one possible interpretation of that evidence.

In order to hold that interpretation, however, one must ignore the canon evidence that Starfleet IS NOT a military organization. This makes the interpretation counter-factual, even if it is the one you prefer to believe.

Preferences. however, are not canon. The evidence supports Starfleet having a military role, but "Starfleet is not a military organization" is also canon.

Which points more to inconsistent world building than anything else, as you have stated prior.

Having enough power to "blast half a continent" tells me Starfleet wasn't playing with retail, civilian grade weapons.

What, you haven't played with nuclear material in your backyard?

How else did you study radiation?

 

[GabyBee]

We know that when they negotiated the treaty with the Cardassians

That merely means that Starfleet is authorized to conduct foreign affairs negotiations on behalf of the United Federation of Planets. That doesn't automatically make it a military organization. It makes it a diplomatic one.

 

[GabyBee]

Which points more to inconsistent world building

No, it only makes it an inconsistent world in relation to your pre-conceived conclusion.

 

[fireproof78]

Diplomatic, exploration and military. Combined Service.

No, it only makes it an inconsistent world in relation to your pre-conceived conclusion.

Based upon my observations and research?