Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Prax]

When has Starfleet EVER shown that it has a "phasers first" policy when it comes to conflict resolution?

In 30 days, ships fly out of the ocean planet they want to explore. One fires at voyager but they pass voyager and continue on their way. Janeway hails the alien vessels. They don't respond. She opens fire on them "Disable their weapons." They then respond.

Janeway then says "We could have destroyed your ship. We didn't because we come in Peace. We'reexplorers, you see, and your ocean planet looks super awesome! Can we check it out?" To which the fish man says "OK sure!"

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Whatever your opinion of Picard may be, his statement is not open to interpretation. It is meant to be taken at face value. Once you ignore canon, you ignore what makes Star Trek Star Trek.

"The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club". --Chancellor Azetbur

Now now, whatever your opinion of Azetbur may be, her statement is not open to interpretation. It is meant to be taken at face value. Once you ignore canon, you ignore what makes Star Trek Star Trek.

 

[BillJ]

I just don't think you can compartmentalize being "military". I don't think one can join an organization, serve for years and then simply flip a switch and be ready to go off and die for the cause. Likely, committing heinous acts for the cause.

It is incredibly tough on soldiers who have it ingrained into their very being that they could die on a moments notice or be asked to kill others, to have the expectation that humans could turn that on or off, I simply think it doesn't work.

All in my opinion.

 

[GabyBee]

All those references prove is that Starfleet does things similar to a military. That does not automatically make it a military entity. People living in the Star Trek universe identify Starfleet as a non-military organization. The people who are responsible for creating Star Trek clearly intend for us to treat Starfleet as a non-military entity, otherwise they would not repeatedly go out of their way to write content identifying it as such.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club". --Chancellor Azetbur

She's one to talk, since her own Empire is a Klingon-only club.

 

[BillJ]

All those references prove is that Starfleet does things similar to a military.

 

[GabyBee]

As has been mentioned several times in this thread, if you want a franchise with a clearly military space navy, there are many to choose from. Battlestar Galactica, Honor Harrington, Starship Troopers, etc. etc. etc... The people responsible for creating Star Trek do not want Starfleet considered a military organization, and have repeatedly stated so in on-screen dialogue. It is an integral part of the Star Trek universe that Starfleet is something uniquely different from a spacefaring military organization. Just because it may share some superficial similarities to one in certain contexts does not automatically mean that it is one.

 

[Prax]

All those references prove is that Starfleet does things similar to a military

Like exploration?

The people who are responsible for creating Star Trek clearly intend for us to treat Starfleet as a non-military entity

I think that's a bit of an overstatement. We just saw a post a day or two ago, of all the writers and producers on TOS, the films and TNG that stated they both thought of Starfleet as a military, and wrote it as such. These statements demand equal weight. We so far have seen one quote from Picard, and one quote from the TNG's writer guide. The Quotes from Kirk and the TOS writers guide also demand equal weight.

 

[BillJ]

As has been mentioned several times in this thread, if you want a franchise with a clearly military space navy, there are many to choose from.

I have one: Star Trek.

The people responsible for creating Star Trek do not want Starfleet considered a military organization, and have repeatedly stated so in on-screen dialogue.

Then they should have done a much better job in how they presented Starfleet. You claim canon, but the canon evidence is much stronger for Starfleet being the military than not. You have tried to spin and ignore, but canon is canon.

 

[fireproof78]

It definitely implies the Federation has a military. Since we've seen no one fight wars for the Federation, except Starfleet (they are even charged with holding ground planetside), I would have to come to the conclusion that Starfleet is the Federation military.

Or, Picard and Scott are simply wrong.

At least to my simple mind.

I'm right there with you in simplicity of mind.

She's one to talk, since her own Empire is a Klingon-only club.

When will we see diversity in the Empire!

 

[GabyBee]

Scotty: "His record goes back way before the Federation even existed. He was a Major in the United Earth Military Assault Command Operation - A lot of off-world combat."
Kirk: "He was a soldier?"
Scotty: "Aye, sir, and a pretty good one. His military service came to an end when MACO was disbanded."
Kirk: "Why? What happened?"
Scotty: "The Federation, sir. Starfleet. We're not a military agency. They made him a Captain and gave him the Franklin"


"Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennett] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force." ~ Nichelle Nichols, 'Beyond Uhura', (pp 248)

 

[fireproof78]

Alternate universe, so perhaps the Kelvin universe Starfleet is not military, since we don't see them engage in wars, only nearly so, and with a war mongering Chief of Starfleet Operations.

 

[GabyBee]

Scotty was referencing events that occurred before the Kelvin universe timeline split. His words hold weight in both universes.

 

[BillJ]

"Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennett] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force." ~ Nichelle Nichols, 'Beyond Uhura', (pp 248)

Then it should have been setup like NASA and not the US military. I wonder what she thought when the Enterprise was doing the Federation's dirty work? I also wonder how many nukes are in the yearly NASA budget and if they are sending missions out with them armed and ready for a mission commander to use at his own discretion?

But, setting up Starfleet like NASA would've sucked all the war drama out of the show.

 

[GabyBee]

The point is that Starfleet is not intended to be considered a military organization. Simply put, the only justification for treating it as one is that you want it to be.

 

[BillJ]

Alternate universe, so perhaps the Kelvin universe Starfleet is not military, since we don't see them engage in wars, only nearly so, and with a war mongering Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Which makes no sense. Why would this Starfleet be planning a war and developing weapons? They obviously would have the same oversight as the Prime universe version.

 

[BillJ]

Simply put, the only justification for treating it as one is that you want it to be.

All I can say, is that you can't have actually watched the shows. Even the game, which your avatar is a character from, is about Starfleet fighting a war.

 

[fireproof78]

Scotty was referencing events that occurred before the Kelvin universe timeline split. His words hold weight in both universes.

No, because according to Simon Pegg, the Narada's impact on the timeline rippled both forward and backwards in time.

The point is that Starfleet is not intended to be considered a military organization. Simply put, the only justification for treating it as one is that you want it to be.

And their behavior on screen.

Which makes no sense. Why would this Starfleet be planning a war and developing weapons. They obviously would have the same oversight as the Prime universe version.

"It's a fictional universe. It doesn't have to make sense."

 

[GabyBee]

I have seen every episode of Star Trek, as well as every film, at least twice.

 

[BillJ]

I have seen every episode of Star Trek, as well as every film, at least twice.

So then you openly admit you are dismissing canon evidence for Starfleet being the military?