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Starfleet Carrier Ship

Look, guys...

Not every ship is going to be "pretty" and that's OK. There are going to be ships that are designed, not to be fast and graceful, but to be "space-efficient." I get a lot of that from Aridas's concept which we're discussing. It's not "pretty" and I don't think it would be terribly fast, but it's probably inexpensive to build and effective in a number of circumstances.

Some things are clearly matters of pure style... of designer taste. Other things reflect technological concepts. And others are purely practical issues.

The tendency to have "saucer, cigar, and rocket tube thingies" in a particular arrangement is mainly used because people (in the real world, mind you) see that and think "Star Trek" automatically.

But for those of us who are more technologically-inclined, there are, or rather SHOULD be, no such limitations.

There are certain things that make sense... having all the decks aligned in parallel planes, for instance, is not a "design requirement" so much as it is just a practical advantage from a psychological standpoint. Of course, the First Federation ship is likely a series of concentric shells with a big power core in the middle... and it's unlikely that the Federation Starfleet will suddenly start using that technology.

But who's to say that half of the new, improved technologies in the ST-TMP refit didn't derive directly from First Federation concepts? Maybe the new reactor design is a First Federation-derived tech, for example? Or the "new screens" which "held" when hit by V'Ger's bolt?

I know that the concept of "warp dynamics" (was it you who came up with that term, Aridas?) is sort of the Star Trek version of "aerodynamics," and the more "aerodynamic" the design, the faster and longer range it has. And that the traditional saucer/cigar/tubes concept was, at the time, the most "aerodynamic" design developed.

Not every ship is going to be optimized for maximum "aerodynamics." Some ships will be designed for maximum practicality... which in the case of a big carrier is to make it effectively a great big BOX.

Put the Ariel versus this other ship, and the Ariel will get there a lot faster. But the other ship will carry a lot more craft as a percentage of its total mass.

Different roles, different appearances.

And the existence of "new technologies" will have little, if anything, to do with the general configuration... only with what the details look like.

Hell, even Roddenberry got into this with his (partially ghost-written?) novelization for TMP. He made a huge issue of how the new sickbay used Fabrini technology Dr. McCoy had brought back.
 
^Are you getting paid to pimp that out?

I'm wondering just what would make you ask such a stupid question.

1) He posts links to everything, everywhere

2) He posted a link to an illustration I did clarifying something I drew when I was 11 years old. Do you really think someone would pay him / "pimp him" to post links to it?

Wow, I missed this thread. Didn't realize it had continued. To answer:

I asked the question because I had just seen the link posted in another thread with only minimum relevance.

Do you really think I was serious about someone paying him to post it?:lol:
 
Do you really think I was serious about someone paying him to post it?:lol:

It doesn't matter what I thought. The only thing that matters is any inference you left that I might have asked someone to go around posting links to something on my site. I've been careful about keeping that site a tiny enclave for a very few people interested in discussing my Trek-based publications. The last thing I'd do is ask someone to come here and post links to something I did. Particularly to something like the Kitty Hawk drawings, which would immediately be misunderstood as a serious concept.

Whatever their relative merit, those drawings were posted to give some idea of what I was drawing in 1970. If I were to want to "revive" the design, I'd refine it. It is crude because it is an attempt to reconcile various views that didn't match up. So I took some of each and added it the others, to get a more 3D sense of what the thing might look like. Again, only with the intent that the people viewing it might better understand the kind of thing this 11 year old was imagining existed in the Trek universe a year after the original Trek went off the air.

As for Cary's question about warp dynamics, I don't know if anyone used that term before I did. I wrote about warp dynamics in a few posters/blueprints/books back in the 80s. I was building upon Jesco von Puttkamer's description in "The Making of Star Trek The Motion Picture" of warp as akin to surfing on spacetime. So I guess I was playing off of hydrodynamics as much as aerodynamics.
 
Personally I don't feel that fighters are of much use in star trek space battles. The smallest ships that are widely useful would be Jem'Hadar bugships or Klingon Birds-of-Prey, the small size of fighters mean they don't generate much power so aren't much of a threat to big ships. I guess if the main ships take down the the enemy shields the fighters might be of use in mopping up an enemy in difficulties. But apart from that I think the federation was using fighters more in desperation than out of their military value.
 
Swarms of fighters could pack a collective punch, though. A single wasp may not be dangerous but a swarm of them is; it also harder to fight off a swarm of wasps than a bear. A bear is strong but is also a big target when you yourself are packing. Also, a torpedo bomber could be quite useful
 
As has been stated numerous times upthread, when the capital ships are just about as fast and maneuverable as the fighters, the fighters (at least in the way we understand the term currently) are irrelevant and rather superfluous.

Now, while it is conceivable to have a Starfleet ship with the primary purpose of carrying around a couple of squadrons of smaller craft, that would pretty much be where the resemblance to a present day aircraft carrier would end, because how those craft would be used would likely be quite a bit different than how the USS Nimitz uses her fighters.
 
"Fighters" would make for some damn useful scout craft and gunships. Though the latter is likely dependant on the type and scale of planetary defense systems in the Trekverse.
 
As has been stated numerous times upthread, when the capital ships are just about as fast and maneuverable as the fighters, the fighters (at least in the way we understand the term currently) are irrelevant and rather superfluous.

Now, while it is conceivable to have a Starfleet ship with the primary purpose of carrying around a couple of squadrons of smaller craft, that would pretty much be where the resemblance to a present day aircraft carrier would end, because how those craft would be used would likely be quite a bit different than how the USS Nimitz uses her fighters.
Again.. a "fighter" is really a "remote weapons deployment platform."

The idea for using fighters is to be able to strike the enemy's "center of mass" long before the enemy can strike yours.

A good way to think of this is if the "phaser strips" on the 1701-D could detach from the hull and zip over to an enemy before the enemy could shoot at the 1701-D's hull at all, then zip back to the (still entirely safe) 1701-D after doing their job.

That's what a fighter is for, and as long as there is such a thing as "weapons range" this will ALWAYS be an advantage.
 
Assuming those little weapons platforms could deliver the same firepower as the ship itself. If all you wind up doing is deploying a hundred little pea shooters, get ready to write a lot of condolence letters.
 
Also...

Again, a "fighter" is really a "remote weapons deployment platform."

And again, it isn't. A "bomber" or a "strike" or "attack craft" is a remote weapons deployment platform that gives extra range and some endpoint targeting to weapons intended to strike at a wide range of targets. A "fighter" is a very specific type of fighting craft, solely intended to deny the enemy its freedom in operating other types of craft. It has no weapon deployment role as such, and indeed often operates well within the range of weapons identical to its own but fired from fixed or barely mobile platforms. It may come in variants such as "interceptor" (defense of a fixed point such as a carrier group), "pursuit" (general air superiority), or "escort" (of formations of other craft).

Starfleet might see value in operating "bombers" out of carrier ships, and indeed it designates its small craft as "attack" vessels. But there apparently aren't any enemy craft that could be defeated by "fighters" (unless we decide to think that the very existence of Starfleet fighters has made every opponent withdraw all of their small craft from the battlefield).

It's a bit uncertain if range is an issue in Trek battles. After all, nobody seems to want to exploit it in any way: both the side with the initiative and the side without prefer to negate all range and close to point blank distance whenever possible.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The andromedean vessels in SFB remind me of those Cardassian weapon emplacements that got their power directly from huge reactors planetside. We saw something similar in Stargate Atlantis where a gate with small drive units 'emitted' a huge beam generated by an object as big as needed, with the emitter firing thru a gate.

Like a laser pointer with just the end cap in your hand, and the actual laser somewhere else.
 
As has been stated numerous times upthread, when the capital ships are just about as fast and maneuverable as the fighters, the fighters (at least in the way we understand the term currently) are irrelevant and rather superfluous.

Now, while it is conceivable to have a Starfleet ship with the primary purpose of carrying around a couple of squadrons of smaller craft, that would pretty much be where the resemblance to a present day aircraft carrier would end, because how those craft would be used would likely be quite a bit different than how the USS Nimitz uses her fighters.

In the TNG episode Heart of Glory, Worf says the enterprise separates its saucer because "when relieved of its bulk, it becomes a formidable weapon." So large capital ships lack the maneuverability and battle usefulness of smaller ships which are more maneuverable. Clearly, size and weight are important in trek space warfare.
 
In the TNG episode Heart of Glory, Worf says the enterprise separates its saucer because "when relieved of its bulk, it becomes a formidable weapon." So large capital ships lack the maneuverability and battle usefulness of smaller ships which are more maneuverable. Clearly, size and weight are important in trek space warfare.
And that's because Star Trek is, supposedly, set in a real universe with real, basic laws of physics.

The amount of energy to move a 1kg mass is always going to be 1/2 of the amount of energy required to do the exact same thing, in the exact same way, to a 2kg mass.

You can also think about "armor" (in this case, shields, but the same concepts largely apply to both). Imagine that a shield is the equivalent of 1" thick armor plate. For real armor, plating a small craft adds much less mass, and thus results in a much lighter vessel overall, when compared to a larger vessel.

In Trek, we're not talking mass, but we ARE talking about energy. The amount of energy required to generate a certain degree of deflector/shield protection for a small craft is much, much less than that required to generate the same level of protection (in "inches of armor equivalence" I suppose?) for a larger vessel.

For a "fighter," we're basically talking about needing a small, light propulsion system (not designed to run continuously and not required to have many levels of redundancy). We're talking about a much less power-intensive shield system, not required to protect an entire large vessel, just a small craft. We're talking about a lot less energy to maneuver.

SO, to get the same amount of weapons-capability, you only need a generator able to output as much energy as is required to put out the desired level of weapons fire, plus JUST ENOUGH energy to move it around and provide basic protection. It's a far more efficient method, all other things considered.

Now at the outset of TNG, we saw only big craft, but by the end of DS9, and the Dominion War, this had largely gone by the wayside. We never see "fighters" per-se, but we hear about them a lot. We hear about "carrier groups" as well. The SFX shots were limited to what they already had to work with, but the SFX shots also showed ships a few meters apart when dialog puts them millions of kilometers apart, too, doesn't it?

I'd say that at the outset of TNG, there were very few fighters... because the Federation was convinced that it was "at peace in a nice, happy-friendly galaxy."

Q showed them otherwise, by introducing them to the Borg (presumably, the Borg were already headed to meet them and he was just giving them a hint of "early warning" on a threat which was rapidly approaching).

And then the Dominion War put all that pretense to an abrupt end.

When you're designing ships to fight a war, as opposed to ships of exploration intended to be able to defend themselves in a pinch, you take a dramatically different tact.

By the way, I keep putting "fighters" in quotes, because of exactly what Timo said above. But his point isn't entirely accurate, either.

He's talking about "interceptors" as though they are "fighters"... as though the two are synonyms. But I'm sorry, the F-15 Eagle is a "strike fighter" and the F-111 was a "fighter/bomber" and so forth. And "weapons" need not be limited to "bombs and missiles"... the Warthog deploys a cannon as its main armament, not for anti-fighter use, but as a ground-attack weapon, just for example. This is why I use the broad, generic term "weapons platform" instead of "bomb deployment platform" or "50mm canon round platform" or so forth. Just "remote weapons deployment platform."

In "Trek" terms, I think that there would be no real difference between "fighters" (including subcategories like strike fighters or interceptors or the like) and "bombers." I'm not using "contemporary terms" as much as I'm using "practical logical definitions."

A "fighter" is a remote weapons deployment platform... which can be a phaser-gunboat, or a heavy torpedo-launch platform, or an interceptor to deal with incoming missiles or fighters, or the like, as I'm using the term. The point is to intercept and engaged a hostile force (whether capital ship, stationary base, or small craft... or some combination of the above) before that force is able to engage your primary base of operations (whether it be a capital ship or a stationary base).

That's what the term means as I'm using it here, and what I think we all should be using.
 
I'm with you, but I think you and I along with Timo and April are never going to agree on this one.

Of course I wouldn't want a show or movie built around a Starfleet carrier because it would just become a BSG knock-off.
 
I'm with you, but I think you and I along with Timo and April are never going to agree on this one.

Of course I wouldn't want a show or movie built around a Starfleet carrier because it would just become a BSG knock-off.

Don't worry, it would only be a BSG knock-off if they made Spock a drunk, turned Sisko white, and made Riker a woman. :lol:
 
A big part of the problem in justifying Starfleet fighters is that big battle in DS9 to retake Bajor, where full size starships were being used, essentially, as fighters.

Like I said, a case can be made for a big cruiser that has a couple of squadrons of smaller craft that are deployed on a regular basis, but a carrier with fighters in the Star Wars/Galactica/Pacific War sense ain't gonna be it.
 
what is humorous to me is people use 20th century navies and naval combat to describe a 24th century space exploration agency

imagine trying to use analogies of 15th century galleys to describe 21st century submarine warfare
 
Since starfleet is very much like the the navy in the days of sail, the comparison seems appropriate. The technology and location has changed but the role of exploration and defense in the unknown is appropriate. Read stories from the historic age of exploration; many similarities there. Shoot, Roddenberry sold trek as a wagon train to the stars so we could compare ds9 to Bonanza and it would work.
 
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