Starfleet Carrier Ship

[Cary L. Brown]

It is a foregone conclusion, especially one based on the Ariel drawings, that a small-craft carrier ship is going to be larger and less maneuverable than cruisers and such.

Given this, I wonder if perhaps the Federation would employ a completely different kind of "carrier" strategy, by not using a dedicated "carrier" starship at all. Look at it this way: a transport-tug class of starship (like FJ's Ptolemy, or, better yet, Forbin's Sultana concept) could haul multiple cargo pods. Maybe there's a special kind of cargo pod that serves as a "carrier", so that each pod is a self-contained hangar, launch system, and crew module containing everything needed to support the launching, maintenance and recovery of small craft. The benefit to such a tug-based "carrier pod" system is that a tug could haul multiple pods to a destination, dump them off, and each pod could act as a temporary space station until the tug would come back to pick them up. If we assume a Sultana-type tug could haul at least four "carrier pods" to a "base camp" point, I would expect that it would be far more than an Ariel-type ship could bring to the scene. And the tug could leave the pods there and go on to other assignments, meaning that launch operations in a given star system would not require tying up a warp-driven starship indefinitely.

In the case of, say, support of a new(ish) colony, or in "relief operations," this is probably the most practical approach, I agree.

The pod needs minimal, if any, weapons system. It requires only basic low-output power generation system. There would be no need for FTL propulsion, or any of the other systems that a starship requires.

You can look at this as being the equivalent of, say, the "trailer cities" which were deployed in real life in New Orleans... temporary "permanent" facilities, basically.

And you're absolutely right, you'd need quite a few of these. The sense of SCALE seems to be something that poeple miss on occasion. A single Galaxy could wipe out a city with barely any effort, but to support a city, a Galaxy simply is too small... not enough people, not enough volume, not enough capability in general. You'd need a HUNDRED "Galaxy class" ships to support a major disaster in NYC, most likely.

It's much more effective to have a hundred dedicated (and LOW COST) "relief pods" which can be deployed to a site when needed. You could probably deploy those resources for the cost of, say, just two Galaxy class ships. And these resources would be better-suited for the job anyway, since so much of the Galaxy's resources are focused on exploration and analysis.

For that matter, for evacuation, you'd want dedicated craft (or "pods" perhaps) for that purpose as well... again, the FJ "pod" concept is really well-suited for this role, as you correctly point out. The so-called "liner pod" he came up with would be orders of magnitude less expensive than a full starship, and could be loaded up, left in a "safe spot," and cycled through repeatedly, without the need to carry everyone away to the final "offloading" destination at once, or even to KNOW a "final destination.

While I never really loved the Ptolemy-class design, the transport pod design was a great idea, wasn't it? My preferred "transport pod carrier" concept was the one based upon the Grissom's general design, really...

Imagine a fleet of these "wrangling" a much larger fleet of these...

(both of the above taken from this website)
http://www.modular-models.com

 

[Wingsley]

Neat ideas. I would be interested in seeing a TOS-era version of these, as well as the Sultana.

 

[Wingsley]

FYI, I started a thread on warptugs a little less than two years ago inthis forum.

 

[publiusr]

I LOVE the Ariel design... and it's definitely relevant to this discussion, I think.

I do too. Your very large (2mi) extra galactic design would also make for a fine carrier. The top hull being a thru deck design. The aft of the secondary hull for larger dispatched vessels. I think we are seeing more evidence of 3 hull ships in a lot of fan art.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In the real world there's no such thing as an "asteroid field,"

So the cluster of asteroids in Jupiter's fourth (Greeks) and fifth (Trojans) lagrange points wouldn't qualify as "asteroid fields."

Correct. Most of the Trojan asteroids are separated by tens of thousands of kilometers, and this is considered very DENSE concentration in astronomical terms.

The reason Star Warsian asteroid fields don't exist in reality is because those types of formations are EXTREMELY unstable. If they're moving slowly enough to hang around in the same general location, then gravity pulls them all towards the center of the field and they become a singular object (which is exactly how many of the chondritic asteroids in the main belt were formed; they're pretty much just giant piles of boulders). If their velocity is greater than their net gravitational pull, they'll continue to collide with each other, ejecting each other out of the field until they spread out into a diffuse cloud too large for collisions to commonly occur.

Thus in the REAL WORLD, ordinary shuttlccraft would be more than adequate for scouting asteroid groupings; they would have to map the asteroids one at a time, and it would take a handful of minutes to cover the distance between any two of them, even under impulse power.

It is a foregone conclusion, especially one based on the Ariel drawings, that a small-craft carrier ship is going to be larger and less maneuverable than cruisers and such.

Given this, I wonder if perhaps the Federation would employ a completely different kind of "carrier" strategy, by not using a dedicated "carrier" starship at all. Look at it this way: a transport-tug class of starship (like FJ's Ptolemy, or, better yet, Forbin's Sultana concept) could haul multiple cargo pods. Maybe there's a special kind of cargo pod that serves as a "carrier", so that each pod is a self-contained hangar, launch system, and crew module containing everything needed to support the launching, maintenance and recovery of small craft. The benefit to such a tug-based "carrier pod" system is that a tug could haul multiple pods to a destination, dump them off, and each pod could act as a temporary space station until the tug would come back to pick them up. If we assume a Sultana-type tug could haul at least four "carrier pods" to a "base camp" point, I would expect that it would be far more than an Ariel-type ship could bring to the scene. And the tug could leave the pods there and go on to other assignments, meaning that launch operations in a given star system would not require tying up a warp-driven starship indefinitely.

In the case of, say, support of a new(ish) colony, or in "relief operations," this is probably the most practical approach, I agree.

The pod needs minimal, if any, weapons system. It requires only basic low-output power generation system. There would be no need for FTL propulsion, or any of the other systems that a starship requires.

You can look at this as being the equivalent of, say, the "trailer cities" which were deployed in real life in New Orleans... temporary "permanent" facilities, basically.

And you're absolutely right, you'd need quite a few of these. The sense of SCALE seems to be something that poeple miss on occasion. A single Galaxy could wipe out a city with barely any effort, but to support a city, a Galaxy simply is too small... not enough people, not enough volume, not enough capability in general. You'd need a HUNDRED "Galaxy class" ships to support a major disaster in NYC, most likely.

I mentioned this before, but I feel like this is one of the implicit new capabilities built into the NuTrek starships with their huge shuttlebays and VERY huge shuttles. For one thing, a dedicated "medical shuttle" is something we have never seen before on Star Trek, and the fact that a ship like Kelvin would possess at least one of them speaks volumes, IMO, to the kinds of missions starships are expected to perform (medical shuttle becomes a mobile field hospital for massive ground operations). When also you consider the interiors of the new larger shuttles, it seems to me like the newer versions are designed with "spacelift" in mind, which means they probably have a few other interesting capabilities useful in humanitarian aid: Transporters, tractor beams, forcefield projectors, phasers, deployable/inflatable shelters, etc. Obviously, a highly developed planet with a lot of huge major cities would require a FLEET of such vessels just to make a dent (seven ships that were sent to Vulcan, for example) a small colony isn't likely to have a population THAT large and a single starship would probably suffice.

 

[publiusr]

Nice Carrier here
http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic865.html

 

[sojourner]

^Are you getting paid to pimp that out?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Nice Carrier here
http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic865.html

What does it carry? Origami cranes?

 

[aridas sofia]

^Are you getting paid to pimp that out?

I'm wondering just what would make you ask such a stupid question.

1) He posts links to everything, everywhere

2) He posted a link to an illustration I did clarifying something I drew when I was 11 years old. Do you really think someone would pay him / "pimp him" to post links to it?

 

[aridas sofia]

Nice Carrier here
http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic865.html

What does it carry? Origami cranes?

Context is good. Reading instead of just looking at pictures is also good.

The design in question was posted in response to a topic Masao raised concerning what kind of Treknical art was circulating pre-Franz Joseph. The point of posting any of those circa-1970 drawings wasn't to win over a fan mindset thoroughly soaked in canon and expectations of variations on the same mindnumbing array of saucer-nacelles layouts. It was to show that early on, pre-FJ and pre-TAS, pre-just about any outside influence, some people were thinking along the same lines later followed by TAS, Sternbach, Guenther etc: that other ships from a Starfleet filled with influences from dozens of member planets and hundreds of planets visited might, just maybe look a little more varied than what FJ portrayed.

Just maybe.
.
.
.
Though I've got to admit, that origami crane comment was pretty funny.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I like the direction that one is going, but I'm not sure it's quite there...

 

[publiusr]

I thought folks here might want to see it in that it moves away from the mix and match saucer routine--that was all.

 

[Darkwing]

Personally, I see fighter craft as being pretty frahgile, but effective against larger craft - going back to the eggshell with a hammer approach. Power projection on the cheap: Kill a dozen of my fighters, and I still lose less than you did when they take out your battleship - and aviation proved that could be done in the 1920's.

I don't see that carriers have to be just based on modern USN supercarriers, though: Small carriers for some applications, large carriers that carry a wide variety of shuttles, fighters, transports, and other craft that explore a whole system at once, say. The CV takes up polar orbit around the star, and all the stealthy probes, scouts, and other small craft scatter to survey the whole star system without the knowledge of the natives who aren't ready for first contact.
In another system, they don't sneak, because there are no natives. But if someone attacks, the fighters come out and the CV pulls back - or is it armed to at least cruiser level? ST CVs need not replicate our experience on arming them, due to tech differences.
Another CV might carry a cloud of tugs and repair craft, or an Assault Carrier might carry large armed/armored landing craft that approximate our modern LCACs and drop a lot of troops and their equipment somewhere that transporters won't work, and then does orbital bombardment to support the units they just dropped.
A little more thought can probably show even more uses for a CV, both combat and non-combat oriented, and the variety of carried craft possible.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Nice Carrier here
http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic865.html

What does it carry? Origami cranes?

Context is good. Reading instead of just looking at pictures is also good.

I'm all for reading, and from what I READ on the page the design almost makes sense.

The context of my commment is an allusion to the fact that the space craft AS DRAWN is positively butt-ugly and looks like a concept drawing for Stargate SG1 with some warp nacelles attached to it.

It was to show that early on, pre-FJ and pre-TAS, pre-just about any outside influence, some people were thinking along the same lines later followed by TAS, Sternbach, Guenther etc: that other ships from a Starfleet filled with influences from dozens of member planets and hundreds of planets visited might, just maybe look a little more varied than what FJ portrayed. [/quote]
I've heard that before. And my usual response (though I don't think I've ever said it openly) was to wonder what those "dozens of member planets" influences were based on since we never got to see them in TOS. I tend to think TOS-R did a remarkably good job with the Medusan ship and with Harry Mudd's revised cruiser... but I concede that these would have been hard to envisoin in the 1970s.

I thought folks here might want to see it in that it moves away from the mix and match saucer routine--that was all.

Appreciate it, but I can't help but think that "altered saucer, altered nacelles, same basic shape" is a better way to go. You could put Gabe Koerner's enterprise next to the NuEnterpirse and have them plausibly as two completely different classes of ships. Slapping warp nacelles on the Battlestar Galactica... not so much.

 

[aridas sofia]

What does it carry? Origami cranes?

Context is good. Reading instead of just looking at pictures is also good.

I'm all for reading, and from what I READ on the page the design almost makes sense.

The context of my commment is an allusion to the fact that the space craft AS DRAWN is positively butt-ugly and looks like a concept drawing for Stargate SG1 with some warp nacelles attached to it.

Hey! I'm glad you liked it! If I was still eleven years old I'd draw something else for you to critique!

It was to show that early on, pre-FJ and pre-TAS, pre-just about any outside influence, some people were thinking along the same lines later followed by TAS, Sternbach, Guenther etc: that other ships from a Starfleet filled with influences from dozens of member planets and hundreds of planets visited might, just maybe look a little more varied than what FJ portrayed.

I've heard that before. And my usual response (though I don't think I've ever said it openly) was to wonder what those "dozens of member planets" influences were based on since we never got to see them in TOS. I tend to think TOS-R did a remarkably good job with the Medusan ship and with Harry Mudd's revised cruiser... but I concede that these would have been hard to envisoin in the 1970s.

You can limit yourself to what was shown onscreen or you can make inferences from what was seen in the episodes. Did they learn anything from the ruins of the civilization found on planet M-113 in "The Man Trap"? How about from the Thasians in "Charlie X"? How about from the "Old Ones" technology that Roger Corby had found and learned from in*"What Are Little Girls Made Of?"? They set up a cultural exchange program with the technologically superior First Federation in "The Corbomite Maneuver" -- I guess the knowledge from that entire federation went nowhere. Spock communicated with Talosians and Pike went to stay with them at the end of "The Menagerie". Do you think he communicated any of their advanced knowledge to Earth? Romulans in "Balance of Terror", the sophisticated technology of the Omicron Delta aliens in "Shore Leave", Trelane, the Gorns and Metrons in "Arena", the Landru computer, the Eminiar VII civilization capable of destroying the starship Valiant, the Klingons and Organians, Lazarus, the Guardian of Forever and the ruins of the civilization on that planet...

And that's just the first season. And it's just the missions of that one starship in that one year. That fleet had at least twelve other starships like Enterprise doing the same thing. And it had been doing this kind of encountering and discovering and learning for at least a hundred years. Could they have been doing what was shown on one ship, on multiple ships, for a century or more, and learned nothing?

No matter how you choose to cut it, that's a tremendous amount of knowledge about how other species and peoples chose to do things like light their rooms, make robots, design computers, make weapons, go to warp, etc. It would most certainly influence the way that fleet did things. If not... why in the hell would they be out there?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You can limit yourself to what was shown onscreen or you can make inferences from what was seen in the episodes. Did they learn anything from the ruins of the civilization found on planet M-113 in "The Man Trap"? How about from the Thasians in "Charlie X"? How about from the "Old Ones" technology that Roger Corby had found and learned from in*"What Are Little Girls Made Of?"

What about them? None of them were Federation members, and they sure as hell didn't have any influence on Federation ship design.

They set up a cultural exchange program with the technologically superior First Federation in "The Corbomite Maneuver"

Whose influence--at least aesthetically--is curiously absent in the pre-FJ designs.

Spock communicated with Talosians and Pike went to stay with them at the end of "The Menagerie". Do you think he communicated any of their advanced knowledge to Earth?

No. That was the whole point of instituting a death penalty for trying to contact them, remember? Specifically to AVOID exchanging any technology with humans, realizing that it would be destructive to our culture.

Romulans in "Balance of Terror", the sophisticated technology of the Omicron Delta aliens in "Shore Leave", Trelane, the Gorns and Metrons in "Arena", the Landru computer, the Eminiar VII civilization capable of destroying the starship Valiant, the Klingons and Organians, Lazarus, the Guardian of Forever and the ruins of the civilization on that planet...

None of which, again, have any opportunity or reason to influence Federation starship design. Most of them were encountered DURING the run of TOS, and the only ones encountered more than once were extremely hostile.

Again, the only influence I'd expect to really see would be the First Federation and possibly the Gorn, but in the latter case we never got to see the Gorn ship close up. And in the former case... well, for some reason nobody seems to have made any serious effort to incorporate First Federation motiffs into Starfleet designs, before or after FJ. Like the reason of fandom, poor Balok has been utterly forgotten.

No matter how you choose to cut it, that's a tremendous amount of knowledge about how other species and peoples chose to do things like light their rooms, make robots, design computers, make weapons, go to warp, etc. It would most certainly influence the way that fleet did things. If not... why in the hell would they be out there?

And those influences, arguably, went into the refit program that lead to the TMP enterprise and the Reliant and later Excelsior. The result would have followed the lines of the TOS ship but changed the DETAILS of how these things were done.

But as for the thinking back then, the only thing you have to go on is YOUR IMAGINATION about how any of those ships might have looked. TOS interiors were fairly generic no matter who the aliens were, and we never got to see the SHIPS from anyone other than the Tholians, the Klingons and the Romulans, whom Starfleet has no reason whatsoever to try and emulate.

 

[aridas sofia]

In TOS we only see Starfleet ships that look like Enterprise. By TAS we see various designs that look very different. If you insist that a ship reflecting knowledge gained from the First Federation had to look like a big ball then sure, I guess Starfleet astonishingly traveled around the galaxy meeting other spacefaring races and didn't learn a thing. If fans are limited to only what was seen onscreen then everything stayed pretty much the same and the Federation was an "arrested culture" just as Spock disparagingly characterized the Organians.

Of course, that isn't the way I chose to think about the show. Kitty Hawk was drawn right after the show went off the air and as I remember, one of the main things that influenced my designs then was to show distinct designs for distinct purposes and a mashup of influences, some seen and some imagined. So this ship showed recognizable influences from encounters with Klingon ships, as if Federation designers had seen the D-7s and said, "okay, they do this list of things better than we do. Let's see whether we can incorporate any of that into any of our designs." This ship was meant to be a shuttle carrier and the idea was that it would use Klingon technology to harden and toughen a ship that would have to fly into the teeth of danger, offload its cargo of troops, and get away. Since I designed this when I was eleven and possibly with an eye to building a model of it from balsa, plastic or cardboard, I'm not going to claim it isn't a little rough around the edges. When confronting the same issues a decade later I designed ships like the Ariel, Surya and Avenger and those designs are definitely meant to show more continuity than evolution. But in response to Masao's question about what was going on before Franz Joseph, I thought it was a refreshing, if somewhat crude example of thinking outside the box. The TAS artists and Rick Sternbach in the Spaceflight Chronology later followed a similar approach -- an approach that was later abandoned in favor of making all the Fed ships look pretty much the same -- and I also thought that was a curious coincidence.

I'm wondering if you ever drew Star Trek ships when you were younger. C'mon! Don't be shy! Let's see some of your nascent creative genius shine. I'd love to see what kind of artwork you produced!

 

[blssdwlf]

FWIW, I thought your carrier design reflected the same philosophy used for the Aurora.

 

[aridas sofia]

FWIW, I thought your carrier design reflected the same philosophy used for the Aurora.

Since I don't remember everything, or even a lot, of the thinking that went into it, you may be right. Tholians might have influenced both.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm wondering if you ever drew Star Trek ships when you were younger.

I never drew, mainly built models from anything I could find. Legos in grammar school, switched to cardboard and wood in high school. A few of those are probably still around, squirreled away in my mother's basement back home. I will say there were a number of Kitty Hawk looking designs during the Lego era, but none of them were meant for Starfleet (actually, most were meant for Babylon 5).

FWIW, I wasn't as interested in "Other alien worlds" influence as much as I was in playing off design traditions from different Earth design schools and cultures. My favorite design was something that looked REMARKABLY like the USS Kelvin (switch the nacelle and secondary hull, though) that was supposed to have been Russia's contribution to Starfleet.