Starfleet as the Military...

[The Wormhole]

No patrolling the borders or leading the fleet into battle.

And yet, that is all we've seen most Galaxy class ships doing.

Diplomacy was practiced in the Neutral Zone episode. They didn't attack the Romulans. The Enterprise defence role was held in reserve. It played a secondary role.

Eh, I don't consider that to be "diplomacy" anymore than any other showdown against an alien in which combat was avoided. The Romulans also willingly chose not to attack, but I doubt anyone is going to label them as being "diplomatic."

Don't forget the battle bridge!

IMO, the battle bridge should have been utilized more often during the series. Even without saucer separations, it makes the most sense to serve as an auxiliary control room when the main bridge is out of order. A lot more sense than everyone crowding into engineering, anyway. That really bothered me in Brothers in particular, as the battle bridge set had only just been used a few weeks earlier in TBOBW, so it should have been readily available. Hell, the other 24th century ships don't even have an auxiliary control room, which seems ridiculous.

I went and checked on this, the Enterprise D actually has three, the third can only be use if the saucer is separated, and it faces aft.

Memory Alpha says there's only two. Memory Beta says there's three, which would suggest this third tube you speak of isn't canon.

I'm sure that we don't want a fleet of USS Grissom Captain Milquetoasts out there waiting days or weeks for a Starfleet decision on a firing order.

To be fair, the Oberth class has very minimal armaments, so even if Captain Esteban were more on the ball, there'd be limited combat options for him anyway.

 

[Tenacity]

Memory Alpha says there's only two. Memory Beta says there's three, which would suggest this third tube you speak of isn't canon.

The MSD seen in engineering clearly shows it, and Memory Alpha is legendary for their errors.

Hell, the other 24th century ships don't even have an auxiliary control room, which seems ridiculous.

Supposedly you can run the whole ship from a PADD.

 

[SPCTRE]

I think one of the advantages of doing Discovery as a reboot, would be the fact that they could finally make Starfleet a purely exploration outfit. As opposed to having officers running around saying they aren't the military when Starfleet clearly has been throughout the franchise.

oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit son now you done did it

 

[Tenacity]

Diplomacy was practiced in the Neutral Zone episode.

Saber rattling was employed in the Neutral Zone episode. For diplomacy Starfleet could have sent a runabout.

I thought it was used against the BoP before separation in "Generations."

That was the torpedo launched on the aft end of the engineering hull, different from the launcher I was referring to.

 

[Mudd]

Kirk is the mouthpiece for a writer. Pegg is a writer. Pegg ranks Kirk.

 

[Paradise City]

Eh, I don't consider that to be "diplomacy" anymore than any other showdown against an alien in which combat was avoided. The Romulans also willingly chose not to attack, but I doubt anyone is going to label them as being "diplomatic."

Who said diplomacy has to be pretty? Sometimes it's ugly and is needed to escape tight situations. It comes first though. And in The Neutral Zone episode Picard wins a limited and short-term partnership from a crowd who are a pretty distrustful and isolationist lot. He's pretty conciliatory there.

But my argument isn't being well reflected here. I never said that defence was unimportant or was never used which is what some of you folks seem to think I'm saying. Being of secondary importance yet still of high importance aren't mutually exclusive and of course the realpolitik of it is that this feature comes to the fore in times of exception such as in a battle or a war.

What I am saying is that in terms of what Starfleet's official standing is that it is as a branch first and foremost devoted to exploration and diplomacy with.defence as a secondary function (yet still of high importance)

Now you might then accuse Starfleet of sleight of hand and that the realpolitik of it is that they are military, military with exploration as an add on. The Federation's rivals may make that accusation and it's a good debate to have. But in terms of what Stafleet's official standing is -- it's an arm were diplomacy and exploration come first.

This is in contrast to powers who explicitly describe their capital ships as "Warbirds" and "Birds of Prey". Exploration here is subordinate to a military purpose in official terms and in terms of realpolitik.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Kirk is the mouthpiece for a writer. Pegg is a writer. Pegg ranks Kirk.

He has Kirk Pegged, then?

 

[BillJ]

This is in contrast to powers who explicitly describe their capital ships as "Warbirds" and "Birds of Prey". Exploration here is subordinate to a military purpose in official terms and in terms of realpolitik.

I'm not sure it scores Starfleet any points that it hides its real purpose. I doubt too many Coast Guard or NOAA ships carry nukes.

 

[Paradise City]

I'm not sure it scores Starfleet any points that it hides its real purpose. I doubt too many Coast Guard or NOAA ships carry nukes.

It doesn't hide its real purpose, so much as it rearranges its various purposes so as to better espouse the Federation ethos. Starfleet itself becomes a roving representative of Federation values. And Starfleet never disavows armed conflict outright. It's understood that if you refuse diplomacy, you'll get bitten by some sharp teeth.

 

[SPCTRE]

 

[Mudd]

I'm not sure it scores Starfleet any points that it hides its real purpose. I doubt too many Coast Guard or NOAA ships carry nukes.

You know, given the advanced technology that the Federation ought to possess based on what we've seen, one would reasonably expect them and the Klingons to have vastly more destructive weapons tucked away somewhere. Phasers and photon torpedoes should be equivalent to minimal self-defense armament rather than nukes.

Of course, little about Star Trek's future holds up under close scrutiny half a century after its creation any more than the future conjured by Buck Rogers does. When we choose to buy into the idea of bipedal aliens from all over a heavily populated and yet remarkably technologically level cosmos successfully interbreeding because of some putative DNA diaspora by Ancient Astronauts, why split hairs over the creators' assertions about Starfleet's charter?

 

[The Wormhole]

The MSD seen in engineering clearly shows it, and Memory Alpha is legendary for their errors.

I see it on fan-made MSDs online, but there are no clear shots of the actual MSD seen in the show that I can find. Memory Alpha has an MSD they claim is based on the one used in the show, which doesn't include the third launcher.

Who said diplomacy has to be pretty? Sometimes it's ugly and is needed to escape tight situations. It comes first though. And in The Neutral Zone episode Picard wins a limited and short-term partnership from a crowd who are a pretty distrustful and isolationist lot. He's pretty conciliatory there.

But my argument isn't being well reflected here. I never said that defence was unimportant or was never used which is what some of you folks seem to think I'm saying. Being of secondary importance yet still of high importance aren't mutually exclusive and of course the realpolitik of it is that this feature comes to the fore in times of exception such as in a battle or a war.

What I am saying is that in terms of what Starfleet's official standing is that it is as a branch first and foremost devoted to exploration and diplomacy with.defence as a secondary function (yet still of high importance)

Now you might then accuse Starfleet of sleight of hand and that the realpolitik of it is that they are military, military with exploration as an add on. The Federation's rivals may make that accusation and it's a good debate to have. But in terms of what Stafleet's official standing is -- it's an arm were diplomacy and exploration come first.

This is in contrast to powers who explicitly describe their capital ships as "Warbirds" and "Birds of Prey". Exploration here is subordinate to a military purpose in official terms and in terms of realpolitik.

Thing is, contrary to popular belief, today's militaries don't always go into a situation guns blazing, shooting first and asking questions later. There are situations that call for that approach, and even Starfleet has been known to respond in this manner from time to time. But, with today's militaries if armed conflict can be avoided, it is. Defense is still the military's primary nature, even if they find solutions which avoid combat. Aside from technology and the environment in which they operate, there really is so very little difference between Starfleet and modern militaries that this whole "we're not a military even if we act like one. Gene said so" is so ridiculous and suggests the adherents to this thinking understand very little if anything about what a military is and what it does.

 

[JoeP]

I see it on fan-made MSDs online, but there are no clear shots of the actual MSD seen in the show that I can find. Memory Alpha has an MSD they claim is based on the one used in the show, which doesn't include the third launcher.

If anyone has the Season 4 blu rays handy, there's a shot in Brothers that will most likely show that area. Trekcore has a screenshot but with Wesley's noggin right in the way; there's a good chance there's a few frames either before of after here with a clear view:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/season-4/4x03/brothers-hd-070.jpg

 

[The Wormhole]

Ha! He's blocking the exact area this supposed third launcher is supposed to be.
EDIT: Just got back from checking my Blu-ray. The third launcher is NOT there, therefore it is non-canon.

 

[JoeP]

Ha! He's blocking the exact area this supposed third launcher is supposed to be.

Effin' Wesley...

 

[JoeP]

UPDATE!
http://i.stack.imgur.com/Ezuoo.jpg

EDIT: Ninja'd above...

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, but you have an actual screencap to provide the proof of this launcher's non-existence.

 

[fireproof78]

I see it on fan-made MSDs online, but there are no clear shots of the actual MSD seen in the show that I can find. Memory Alpha has an MSD they claim is based on the one used in the show, which doesn't include the third launcher.

Thing is, contrary to popular belief, today's militaries don't always go into a situation guns blazing, shooting first and asking questions later. There are situations that call for that approach, and even Starfleet has been known to respond in this manner from time to time. But, with today's militaries if armed conflict can be avoided, it is. Defense is still the military's primary nature, even if they find solutions which avoid combat. Aside from technology and the environment in which they operate, there really is so very little difference between Starfleet and modern militaries that this whole "we're not a military even if we act like one. Gene said so" is so ridiculous and suggests the adherents to this thinking understand very little if anything about what a military is and what it does.

Quoted for effect. Seriously, what is it about the term "military" that is such a negative connotation? The idea that militaries go running in to shoot first and ask questions later may sound great in a Western, and certain can happen, but that doesn't make it the norm. But, a military operates to promote it's government's decisions, by force, if necessary.

War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him . . . but to make him do what you want him to do. Not killing . . . but controlled and purposeful violence.

Now, Starfleet may put diplomacy as it's main tactic, but that doesn't it make it non-military. That just means that war is not the first choice. Which, again, is true of the contemporary American military. It perhaps is is more streamlined in the future, with Starfleet as a "combined service" indicating that several functions operate all at the same time, with some getting more emphasis depending on the mission, but all equally important.

 

[Wouter]

Diplomacy was practiced in the Neutral Zone episode. They didn't attack the Romulans. The Enterprise defence role was held in reserve. It played a secondary role.

Those things can't be seperated. If the Ent-D, and by extension other Starfleet vessels, would have been nearly defenceless there wouldn't be room for diplomacy. The Romulans wouldn't need diplomacy, they would just make demands and the Federation's choices would be limited to obeying or dying.

I agree that it was a form of saber-rattling, gunboat (phaserboat?) diplomacy, sending the problably most-heavily armed and shielded starship (at the time) to the border. Just like it was in the equivalent (and iconic)TOS episode.

And while the Romulan capital ships are termed 'warbirds", surprisingly the Galaxy-class ships are still supposed to be roughly a match for them (while Birds-of-Prey commanders admit they can't go head-to-head with a Galaxy class ship without subterfuge). Since Federation tech doesn't seem to be that much ahead of Romulan tech in general, and the Romulan ships are even bigger, it stands to reason that the Galaxy class is armed as heavily as its Romulan counterpart is, relative to size and technology level.

Maybe the warbird has tons of science labs, too, but Starfleet would still see it as a severe menace anyway, and care mainly about the power of its disruptors.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think it's possible that certain terms can change over time, especially by the 24th-Century. There could be some weight behind the idea that in Picard's "enlightened" age, the term military could now be associated with solely a fighting force, whereas historically that is rarely the case and could be argued extensively as such by anyone not born in that rarefied air.

Starfleet may see itself as being first and foremost an exploration service, a humanitarian organization, a scientific institution, etc. But during times of conflict, such a distinction tends to go quickly out the window. That doesn't mean that Starfleet can't call itself whatever, just that it does choose to call itself that. It could be just a case of interstellar PR, especially to worlds who would otherwise view ships going where no one has gone before as invaders.