Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

[cooleddie74]

The Empire managed to pacify and oppress a significant chunk of the galaxy and that was a decade to nineteen years before the first Death Star was operational. So using little more than Republic Era technology and upgraded weapons and training techniques inherited from the Grand Army of the Republic the new regime blanketed most of known space with a veil of control and authoritarianism and didn't even engender an open, armed Rebellion until about 10 BBY.

So I can buy the First Order taking advantage of chaos within the New Republic and the destruction of Hosnian Prime to make blitzkrieg thrusts into New Republic space and assert control. Think of how much ground even a totalitarian military taking severe retaliatory blows can gain when it launches a major offensive during a lull in the other side's judgment? Nazi Germany was on its last legs in December of 1944 yet still managed to launch the invasion of the Ardennes and the Battle of the Bulge, costing the Allies many lives and resources and bogging American, British and other troops down for weeks. A wounded animal can be a dangerous one and still kill.

 

[Tuskin38]

of what Rian Johnson's Luke said couldn't be done - bringing Ben Solo back to the light.

Don't you remember that Luke changed his mind before the end of TLJ?

TLJ did my Luke dirty.

lol no, it did Luke magnificently

Ghost Luke feels like Luke again

He felt like Luke in TLJ as well, a changed Luke, but still Luke. People aren't static, they change. Expecting Luke to be the same person he was at the end of ROTJ is unrealistic.

That looks actually pretty good

No it doesn't. Too much fan service, some of those ships make no sense, and they're all like 20+ old. Where are the new designs?

 

[Gaith]

Don't you remember that Luke changed his mind before the end of TLJ?

No, I don't remember Luke indicating he thought Kylo could be redeemed at all. What am I forgetting?

 

[fireproof78]

No it doesn't. Too much fan service, some of those ships make no sense, and they're all like 20+ old. Where are the new designs?

That is the name of the franchise game right now.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I liked Rey in TFA but in all reality I was hoping for her to turn to the dark side. She would have been formidable as someone on the dark side.

 

[USS Firefly]

No it doesn't. Too much fan service, some of those ships make no sense, and they're all like 20+ old. Where are the new designs?

Maybe but those ships were build to last decades maybe longer

 

[Timo]

The Empire managed to pacify and oppress a significant chunk of the galaxy and that was a decade to nineteen years before the first Death Star was operational.

Well, it had the benefit of coming after quite a few years of martial law and draconian rule and outright occupation in most of the corners of that chunk. Many folks (some ugnaughts notwithstanding) might not have known anything better. In contrast, the First Order would have had a tough act to follow: the New Republic was all about condemning tyranny and showing how life was better without it, while the Empire had merely been about doing more of what the Old Republic had done for millennia, only with a bit more vehemence.

So using little more than Republic Era technology and upgraded weapons and training techniques inherited from the Grand Army of the Republic the new regime blanketed most of known space with a veil of control and authoritarianism and didn't even engender an open, armed Rebellion until about 10 BBY.

According to Clone Wars, you control planets by taking the capital city in a land assault. Would the First Order or even the Empire have had the manpower needed, without access to cloned troops or mass-produced combat droids?

Perhaps it was a rule-by-terror deal where armed rebellion failed to emerge exactly because there were no occupying troops, only vague posturing by distant strong men who claimed to possess WMDs? Better pay trivial tribute to those than to engage in a costly terrorist hunt or a tiresome interplanetary alliance. Only the Final Order would have changed things closer to the old Empire model of oppression, and then beyond, with so many WMDs available that instead of demonstrations, the Emperor could really do manifestos...

So I can buy the First Order taking advantage of chaos within the New Republic and the destruction of Hosnian Prime to make blitzkrieg thrusts into New Republic space and assert control.

No contest there. The things the movies throw us tend to be disruptive game-changers, something an underdog faction can wield to make a difference: the return of the Sith, the introduction of clone armies and (partial) abandoning of bushido, then the return of the Jedi, then Death Stars. The impact may not be particularly lasting: heroes or villains or superweapons have limited lifespans, for one. But we don't need lasting things in the movies, which are just snippets in time.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe but those ships were build to last decades maybe longer

And in Star Wars technology doesn't advance.

Sorry, the Picard fan edit is just fan service that makes little sense in context.

 

[Ithekro]

I wonder if there are two pieces to the reasoning that the Core Worlds decided to act at this time (when Lando came to call in favors).

One: Before Rey left, she had fought and defeated Kylo Ren, The Supreme Leader of the First Order. That beast was not without its head, so that piece of fear was mitigated. The First Order was now a potential paper tiger.

Two: Palpatine's location was known, and it was clear he wasn't going anywhere. The Core Worlds would have an intimate memory of Palpantine from the Old Republic, through the end of the Galactic Civil War. He did not have the might of the Empire behind him this time. He was in one system. They had a way to get to him, and his forces of terror were all right there. If they can go their and end him (again), the Final Order falls faster than the Galactic Empire did.

And this is Lando....if anyone can smooth talk people into doing something they actually want to do...its Lando.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder if there are two pieces to the reasoning that the Core Worlds decided to act at this time (when Lando came to call in favors).

One: Before Rey left, she had fought and defeated Kylo Ren, The Supreme Leader of the First Order. That beast was not without its head, so that piece of fear was mitigated. The First Order was now a potential paper tiger.

Two: Palpatine's location was known, and it was clear he wasn't going anywhere. The Core Worlds would have an intimate memory of Palpantine from the Old Republic, through the end of the Galactic Civil War. He did not have the might of the Empire behind him this time. He was in one system. They had a way to get to him, and his forces of terror were all right there. If they can go their and end him (again), the Final Order falls faster than the Galactic Empire did.

And this is Lando....if anyone can smooth talk people into doing something they actually want to do...its Lando.

I think Palpatine may have been the galvanizing force to shove people from apathy (one government is no different than another) in to action. The First Order was a new comer who promised security and order. They don't have to be 100% violent to execute control over the population. They can promise peace and safety and find people who preferred Imperial rule (not necessarily Palpatine) to the New Republic's more laissez-faire approach in governance.

 

[CaptainWacky]

No, I don't remember Luke indicating he thought Kylo could be redeemed at all. What am I forgetting?

Only thing I can think of is Luke replying "no one's ever really gone" to Leia saying "my son's really gone, isn't he" (or whatever the exact wording is.)

 

[cooleddie74]

Luke wanted to see if Ben was redeemable and died before he actually did pull himself back from the Dark Side. He never completely gave up on his nephew. If he had he wouldn't have told Leia that.

He just didn't think it was likely.

 

[Gaith]

Only thing I can think of is Luke replying "no one's ever really gone" to Leia saying "my son's really gone, isn't he" (or whatever the exact wording is.)

Hm. He also told Leia he wasn't there to even attempt to save him, which, IMHO, is such a departure from the RotJ Luke that it rings false to me. I don't demand that beloved characters never change - though Picard (the show) is deeply flawed, I think it succeeds at showing an older, more tired, but still heroic and recognizable JLP. TLJ, however, went too far.

 

[fireproof78]

Luke reminded me very much of classic literature characters. He worked just fine for me.

 

[CaptainWacky]

Hm. He also told Leia he wasn't there to even attempt to save him, which, IMHO, is such a departure from the RotJ Luke that it rings false to me. I don't demand that beloved characters never change - though Picard (the show) is deeply flawed, I think it succeeds at showing an older, more tired, but still heroic and recognizable JLP. TLJ, however, went too far.

When he says "I'm not here to save him" to Leia he means that he's here to help the rebels escape, rather than save Kylo (which would have taken a lot more time.) Although yeah the way he says it does make it sound a bit like he means Kylo can't be saved, but "no one's ever really gone" afterwards shows that isn't the case. TLJ has quite a few lines like this that have double meanings and I don't know if the execution of them was enterirely successful!

(Another being Yoda telling Luke that Rey has "everything she needs" at a time when we think Yoda destroyed the ancient Jedi texts, but we later see that Rey actually has the ancient Jedi texts so Yoda's line means that Rey really does need them. But Luke never learns this because he dies without knowing that Rey took the ancient Jedi texts. Which makes me wonder why Yoda would say something so misleading to Luke but whatever.)

 

[fireproof78]

Interestingly enough Leia's line to Han about who could reach Ben turned out to be quite accurate. I liked that touch.

 

[Gaith]

TLJ has quite a few lines like this that have double meanings and I don't know if the execution of them was enterirely successful!

Yeah, TLJ is constantly trying to have things both ways. "Here's Luke at his most cowardly and lowest point ever... But his five minutes of trolling Kylo Ren is so righteous, it'll inspire enslaved children on faraway planets to fight for their own future!" Because if there's anything that inspires youngsters, it's yesterday's heroes who don't actually harm their enemies, briefly Skype in, and then vanish, never to be heard from again??

Give me a break.

 

[Ithekro]

All depends on spin. Legends take their own lives depending on who is telling it.

As far as most of the galaxy knows, Luke Skywalker held off the might of the First Order alone, surviving the massive firepower thrown at him, dueled Kylo Ren, than vanished like Obi-wan Kenobi did a generation ago. All the while distracting the First Order enough to that the Last Jedi, Rey, could rescue the Resistance from certain doom.

The details get lost most of the time or embellished for effect.

 

[fireproof78]

But his five minutes of trolling Kylo Ren is so righteous, it'll inspire enslaved children on faraway planets to fight for their own future!"

Yes.

Lots of things inspire people in a wide variety of ways. Just because it doesn't inspire everyone doesn't mean it isn't inspirational. Seems short sighted to treat it any other way.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Isn't there a line in one of the trilogy movies where it looks like Finn had something really important to say and then in the next moment it's all cut off and left dangling? I seem to recall a scene like that.