Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[David cgc]

That's the million-dollar question about RotJ: Luke's final trial was to find a Jedi solution to the Sith problem, instead of just stabbing it away, but did Obi-Wan and Yoda know that was what he needed to do (using reverse psychology to push him towards that), or did they genuinely believe Luke cutting off Vader's head (you know, defensively) would solve all their problems?

 

[fireproof78]

That's the million-dollar question about RotJ: Luke's final trial was to find a Jedi solution to the Sith problem, instead of just stabbing it away, but did Obi-Wan and Yoda know that was what he needed to do (using reverse psychology to push him towards that), or did they genuinely believe Luke cutting off Vader's head (you know, defensively) would solve all their problems?

I am doubtful that they knew that solution. Otherwise, Obi-Wan would have attempted to leverage Anakin with their connection, if not on Mustufar then later on down the road.

 

[Reverend]

I don't think either Obi-Wan or Yoda believed Anakin was still in there, or that what little was left could be, or indeed was even worth saving. For Luke's story to be his own, that has to be his own idea.

However, that doesn't mean that they only saw Luke as a means strike down the Sith. Had that been the case then the focus of his training would have been combat to turn him into a weapon (a Jedi version of Darth Maul, basically) and it would have started when he was much younger. Instead we see that what little training he got was on the nature of the force and the Jedi philosophy. Indeed, I suspect that this approach would have been pointless and self defeating. Jedi and Sith setting out to kill each other while the rest of the galaxy burns seems to have been what got them into this position in the first place and having the founder of the new Jedi order being a purebred warrior is just asking for trouble.

Like any religion, the Jedi beliefs come with an element of faith; "trust in the force" is practically their mantra. So maybe Yoda had no idea *how* Luke would conquer the Sith, only that he (or Leia) would. Or at least, they *could*. Always in motion is the future, and all that.

Oh and I don't see either Yoda or Kenobi employing reverse psychology or anything else as manipulative. Very un-Jedi like. Their lies of omission were I think genuinely intended to protect Luke until he was ready to hear the full truth...and to be fair they were proven right in that at least. Luke wasn't ready and it nearly killed him. Twice.

 

[DigificWriter]

Obi-Wan clearly felt that killing Anakin and/or the Emperor was the only way to end things; what Yoda may have felt is a mystery.

 

[Reverend]

Obi-Wan clearly felt that killing Anakin and/or the Emperor was the only way to end things; what Yoda may have felt is a mystery.

During the third act of RotS that may have been the case, but after both he and Yoda failed, I have a hard time crediting the notion that 1) he genuinely thought violence was the solution and/or 2) that even fully trained, Luke could succeed against both of them at the same time in a straight-up duel.

Also note that neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan ever said Luke must kill either of the Sith; that's an inference placed upon them by an audience making assumptions. After all, "confront" and "conquer" are not synonyms for "kill".
As I said before, the clue is in the nature of Luke's training. It was more theological than martial and when Luke returned to Yoda to complete his training, his exact words were "already know you, that which you need." Incidentally, he also said a similar thing about Rey in TLJ. Clearly he felt personal and spiritual knowledge was more fundamentally important that memorising lightsaber forms.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think some of the issues here come from these lines in ROTJ:

Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won.​

Explicit or not, there's the implication there from Obi-Wan that to defeat the Emperor, Luke must be prepared to kill his own father. Myself, I think there's at best sketchy definition both of what Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to do and of what Yoda and Obi-Wan foresaw that Luke would do.

Probably, Yoda foresaw that Luke would confront Vader, as he indicated on his deathbed. I also believe it entirely possible that he foresaw multiple possible outcomes, and in the end he realized that he had to trust in Luke's good intentions (edit: and in the Force).

As for Obi-Wan "certain point of view" Kenobi, well, honestly I think many of the issues with what he said occurred because the saga was written over a span of decades and that the latter half was in the can before the first half even got scripted. The certain point of view excuse introduced in ROTJ was a clever, if trite, fig leaf to cover continuity issues, both from epIV and epV and in the three episodes yet to come (I-III, if they ever would).

It also allows Obi-Wan to egg Luke on in epVI, to heighten suspense, even if he intends Luke to decide against the implicit advice in the end and do what his heart is telling him. Maybe the true test Luke has to face is to be able to defeat Vader physically and then spare him; maybe Obi-Wan can't tell Luke anything else, if that is what has to come to pass for the Emperor to be defeated.

It's interesting how that plan is a repeat of Obi-Wan's on Mustafar. It would seem that Obi-Wan had intended to dispatch Anakin, because he had become a very great threat, as he'd said to Padmé. But after he had defeated Anakin, he spared him out of love. Perhaps that is the path that Obi-Wan hoped Luke would follow, the same path he took. It didn't really come through in ROTJ that one of the things that stirred Anakin back to life was being reminded of what happened to him on Mustafar, but of course ROTS hadn't been scripted yet.

 

[DigificWriter]

During the third act of RotS that may have been the case, but after both he and Yoda failed, I have a hard time crediting the notion that 1) he genuinely thought violence was the solution and/or 2) that even fully trained, Luke could succeed against both of them at the same time in a straight-up duel.

Go rewatch RotJ and Obi-Wan's conversation with Luke on Degobah after Yoda's passing.

As I said before, the clue is in the nature of Luke's training. It was more theological than martial and when Luke returned to Yoda to complete his training, his exact words were "already know you, that which you need." Incidentally, he also said a similar thing about Rey in TLJ. Clearly he felt personal and spiritual knowledge was more fundamentally important that memorising lightsaber forms.

In TLJ, Yoda was speaking literally when he said that Rey had everything she needed, because he knew that she'd physically taken the Jedi texts that Luke was trying to destroy, so your example doesn't work.

 

[Reverend]

Go rewatch RotJ and Obi-Wan's conversation with Luke on Degobah after Yoda's passing.

I already did, right before posting that just to be sure and I stand by my assertion. Luke is the only person who mentions killing Vader. He's making the same assumption you are.

In TLJ, Yoda was speaking literally when he said that Rey had everything she needed, because he knew that she'd physically taken the Jedi texts that Luke was trying to destroy, so your example doesn't work.

He also flatly dismissed their importance and that of the tree (the symbol of the Jedi's past and traditions) in the grand scheme of things to Luke. So that statement could be taken either way. I prefer to think he was being both literal and figurative, since both were true and talking in double meanings is kind of a hallmark of wise old masters.

Explicit or not, there's the implication there from Obi-Wan that to defeat the Emperor, Luke must be prepared to kill his own father. Myself, I think there's at best sketchy definition both of what Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to do and of what Yoda and Obi-Wan foresaw that Luke would do.

To confront Vader and be prepared to kill him *if* necessary is not the same thing as doing so with the specific intent. It's a vital distinction because to Obi-Wan it's about Luke being able to let go of his fears and if he can't do that, then he's right, the Emperor would already have won.

Now, this is not to say that Kenobi considered Vader's death to be anything other than a foregone conclusion if the Sith are to be stopped. He was after all very clear on his opinion regarding his character; "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil."
A creature like that would not in Kenobi's mind be capable of backing down. And now we know this is a Kenobi that has already witnessed Maul's terminal inability to let go of his festering hatred. Just as he met Maul with the intent to allow him to decide his own destiny and that choice led to his death, so too would Kenobi envision Luke confronting Vader just so. Kenobi didn't confront Maul that final time with the intent to kill him. Indeed, he gave him every chance to live and Maul chose death all the same.

And if you're still not convinced by all this, remember Yoda's own words: -
"A Jedi uses The Force for knowledge and defence. NEVER for attack!"
"...You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be."
Now you can choose to believe Yoda is either lying or a hypocrite, but that's just not consistent with his character. A more reasonable explanation is that killing Vader or Sidious is besides the point. Luke needs to face his fears to become a Jedi and that's exactly what happens.

 

[fireproof78]

During the third act of RotS that may have been the case, but after both he and Yoda failed, I have a hard time crediting the notion that 1) he genuinely thought violence was the solution and/or 2) that even fully trained, Luke could succeed against both of them at the same time in a straight-up duel.

But, Yoda said to Luke in ESB that only a "fully trained Jedi would conquer Vader and the Emperor."

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[Reverend]

But, Yoda said to Luke in ESB that only a "fully trained Jedi would conquer Vader and the Emperor."

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As previously stated, "conquer" doesn't mean "kill". It means to defeat or overcome. Again, you're projecting your own assumptions onto his words.

 

[DigificWriter]

Reverend, ask yourself what the simplest explanation is based on Obi-Wan's actions and attitude in RotS and his conversation with Luke in RotJ.

 

[fireproof78]

As previously stated, "conquer" doesn't mean "kill". It means to defeat or overcome. Again, you're projecting your own assumptions onto his words.

Based upon the context of the story at the time I am fairly confident in this assumption. Especially given Obi-Wan's response to Vader in the prior film.

 

[Reverend]

Reverend, ask yourself what the simplest explanation is based on Obi-Wan's actions and attitude in RotS and his conversation with Luke in RotJ.

I've already addressed that point like three times already. Try and keep up.

Based upon the context of the story at the time I am fairly confident in this assumption. Especially given Obi-Wan's response to Vader in the prior film.

Which response? That he can't win? How does that support the notion that Kenobi wants Luke to go kill him?
As I said, Kenobi may believe that Vader dying is inevitable if the Sith are to be defeated, but that doesn't mean that striking him down is the sole purpose to which they are setting Luke on this path.

When Yoda & Kenobi speak of Luke & Leia being their last/only hope, do you seriously think that hope is to kill the Sith, or to remake the Jedi Order? Now, the former may happen in the process of the latter, but that doesn't make it the objective. It's stated many times that Luke needs to be a Jedi *before* he can defeat the Sith, not after. And again (getting a little tired of repeating myself btw) that is exactly how it unfolds.

As hard as it might be to accept, but the reality of the situation is that neither Yoda nor Kenobi knew exactly *how* Luke would defeat the Sith. What they're doing is an act of faith. They trust in the force. That if they can help restore the balance (and no, the balance is not sticking a lightsaber in the evil wizards) that the force will correct itself and guide events as they must.
Foresight, plotting and schemes are Sidious's tools of choice, not Yoda's. Remember that at their core, the Jedi are passive to the will of the force and it's the Sith that try to bend it to their will.

 

[fireproof78]

As I said, Kenobi may believe that Vader dying is inevitable if the Sith are to be defeated, but that doesn't mean that striking him down is the sole purpose to which they are setting Luke on this path.

Then I misunderstood. I don't believe Yoda or Obi-Wan were convinced that Luke must kill, but that it may be an inevitable part of the task, as neither were able to accomplish the task on their own. I think that they see the Sith as needing to be conquered, and their experience that may involve killing them.

As hard as it might be to accept, but the reality of the situation is that neither Yoda nor Kenobi knew exactly *how* Luke would defeat the Sith. What they're doing is an act of faith. They trust in the force. That if they can help restore the balance (and no, the balance is not sticking a lightsaber in the evil wizards) that the force will correct itself and guide events as they must.
Foresight, plotting and schemes are Sidious's tools of choice, not Yoda's. Remember that at their core, the Jedi are passive to the will of the force and it's the Sith that try to bend it to their will.

It would be more helpful to know what balance meant, but even so, I agree that the Jedi didn't know. But, doesn't change the fact that both are considering the possible death of the evil wizards in order to accomplish their goals.

 

[DigificWriter]

Revenge of the Sith tells us everything we need to know about what Obi-Wan thought Luke needed to do and what "bringing balance to the Force" meant.

Obi-Wan: You were the Chosen One! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them. You were supposed to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness.

 

[David cgc]

My understanding that that there is no "light side" of the Force, per se, which exists as a counterbalance to the dark side. The Jedi seek to embrace the entire Force, while those that go for the dark side are picking and choosing in favor of expediency, ignoring larger and longer-term consequences. That's why "balancing the Force" doesn't mean there are an equal number of Jedi and Sith, but there are no Sith, who seek life without end, and destruction without renewal.

 

[Reverend]

My understanding that that there is no "light side" of the Force, per se, which exists as a counterbalance to the dark side. The Jedi seek to embrace the entire Force, while those that go for the dark side are picking and choosing in favor of expediency, ignoring larger and longer-term consequences. That's why "balancing the Force" doesn't mean there are an equal number of Jedi and Sith, but there are no Sith, who seek life without end, and destruction without renewal.

The way I generally think of it; the "light side" is the force in it's natural balance, whereas the dark side is a corruption of that balance. Selfless vs. selfish. Passive vs. aggressive. Give vs. take etc.

Killing the Jedi isn't what disrupted the balance, it was what the Sith were doing to the entire galaxy. Fostering war, hatred and greed. Likewise killing the Sith isn't what restored balance because even decades later things still haven't settled down. After such a drastic imbalance it's bound to take a little while for true equilibrium to be restored.

Of course in-universe it'd make total sense that these have been hotly debated ideas even within the Jedi and Sith Orders for millennia (to say nothing of the other myriad force religions) so not everything every character says can be taken as objective truth, just as personal belief.

 

[DigificWriter]

Killing the Sith isn't what restored balance.

This is incorrect according to George Lucas, and Lucasfilm has not yet done anything to refute it in the 6 years since he sold the company.

An imbalance may be re-emerging after 30 years, but that doesn't mean there hadn't been a balance restored.

 

[Jedi_Master]

But, Yoda said to Luke in ESB that only a "fully trained Jedi would conquer Vader and the Emperor."

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He wasn't wrong. Luke got his butt whipped by the Emperor and was only saved when Vader had a change of heart.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He wasn't wrong. Luke got his butt whipped by the Emperor and was only saved when Vader had a change of heart.

Anakin was that fully trained Jedi?