Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[Trekkin]

He used cameras, not psychic powers.

I have no idea if that a serious correction, or just building on a joke.

But it works as both, so I’ll take it.

Excuse me while I have a fainting spell over the prospect of 19-20 year old guys having sex. It's just so wrong!

1. J.O.K.E . Sarcasm. Facetiousness. Not often accompanied by fainting spells.

2. Who the hell claimed it was a moral issue?

Hot Husband material: a whiny, hairless, scrawny kid. Who, in another life, still couldn’t drink and would totally be chowing down on a Tide Pod right now.

The thought of banging that is a horror, just not the kind you’re thinking of.

By the time the '77 film was being produced, it is clear, GL's fairy tale influences were present (which did not pop out of thin air on the set), with an apparent triangle (Luke still having his crush on Leia well to the end of the film / Han flirting with Leia).

1. Where did Luke express that he still had a crush at the end of ANH? It’s not because some man and a woman had eye contact, is it?

2. Han wasn’t concieved as flirting with Leia in ANH. He literally never has a line with her that is not part of an argument or an insult, and she has one that isnt-but-still-kinda-is (‘I knew there was more to you than money.’) Because in the first movie, Han was totally making eyes at Luke.

ESB retconned it all into their flirtation. Cos Fisher and Ford ended up with visible chemistry. Cos the actors were actually fucking.

3. A one sided crush or flirtation is not ‘a romance.’ . Unless you want to go all classical with your usage, in which case Luke is also totally having a romantic moment with that two-sun horizon.

[Re. Owen and Beru]...You were commenting on the idea of romance in the original film

Yes. That would be because by that time, I was addressing a different point.

I understand how you missed that, when you...purposefully cut out all the surrounding context. Including all my other mentions of non-ANH media.

And yes, when one explicitly says they’re referring to ‘the archetypal example’ that does usually refer to a singular thing. Oh, what a woe to be sneaky and caught out.

 

[fireproof78]

BINGO. It's amazing to me how people don't get this... books and movies aren't just meant to be a reflectio of life, they're also meant to be lessons. What a boring lesson it would be if every character in a book or movie or a TV show did what we SHOULD do.

Morality tales are often presented in this way. Mythology can be presented in this way. Cultures respond differently to different stories, Myth making builds with societies and can take different shapes. The fact that individuals tear TFA apart for replicating ANH too much and then beat up on TLJ for changing tropes is an inconsistency that is hard to fathom.

 

[Trekkin]

Trying to justify Padme’s characterisation by comparing her to Greek tragedy, kinda doesn’t work when - at various points and places - many Greek cultures didn’t consider women to be fully human.

And I ain’t talking about ‘treated them as if they weren’t fully human.’ I mean, they were literally referred to as being just above animals.

The prequels are from the early 2000’s. Something is very fucking wrong when shit like Xena and Disney’s Hercules had already done a better (that’s not saying ‘perfect’) job of straight up adapting the female characters from Greek myth, than Lucas did just playing with the archetypes

That’s not touching on how Padme comes across as pretty iffy even by Greek mythology standards. Characters like Medea, Athena, Penelope, Aphrodite, Elektra, Hera etc may be horrible stereotypes and have all their actions be determined by how they relate to menfolk, but even they end up taking some action.

That first one in particular was not really into ‘abusing me is fine’. She was more the ‘smother the twins, nail the corpses to Anakin’s forehead out of spite, then dump his ass’ kind.

 

[Awesome Possum]

BINGO. It's amazing to me how people don't get this... books and movies aren't just meant to be a reflectio of life, they're also meant to be lessons. What a boring lesson it would be if every character in a book or movie or a TV show did what we SHOULD do.

Humans should at least behave like humans in a story, especially our heroes. Neither Anakin or Padme are sympathic on any level. They’re two emotional stunted people in a toxic relationship. Luke and Leia not growing up with either is why they ended up functional caring people.

Saying “it’s a story” is just an excuse for terrible writing. Under a better writer Anakin and Padme could have worked and been sympathic. We’re supposed to care about them, not right them off as doomed from the start. It’s not a tragedy, it’s a foregone conclusion. A tragedy is seeing a character you like falling to the Dark Side, not a psychopath becoming a monster.

 

[fireproof78]

Saying “it’s a story” is just an excuse for terrible writing. Under a better writer Anakin and Padme could have worked and been sympathic. We’re supposed to care about them, not right them off as doomed from the start. It’s not a tragedy, it’s a foregone conclusion. A tragedy is seeing a character you like falling to the Dark Side, not a psychopath becoming a monster.

Well put. I completely agree. The largest problem that I struggle with in the PT is caring about Anakin or that he falls to the Dark Side. I just don't.

 

[indranee]

Trying to justify Padme’s characterisation by comparing her to Greek tragedy, kinda doesn’t work when - at various points and places - many Greek cultures didn’t consider women to be fully human.

And I ain’t talking about ‘treated them as if they weren’t fully human.’ I mean, they were literally referred to as being just above animals.

The prequels are from the early 2000’s. Something is very fucking wrong when shit like Xena and Disney’s Hercules had already done a better (that’s not saying ‘perfect’) job of straight up adapting the female characters from Greek myth, than Lucas did just playing with the archetypes

That’s not touching on how Padme comes across as pretty iffy even by Greek mythology standards. Characters like Medea, Athena, Penelope, Aphrodite, Elektra, Hera etc may be horrible stereotypes and have all their actions be determined by how they relate to menfolk, but even they end up taking some action.

That first one in particular was not really into ‘abusing me is fine’. She was more the ‘smother the twins, nail the corpses to Anakin’s forehead out of spite, then dump his ass’ kind.

"A long LONG time ago, in a galaxy far FAR away".

What about that fucking sentence tells you that it was set in the 2000s in the USA?

 

[indranee]

Humans should at least behave like humans in a story, especially our heroes. Neither Anakin or Padme are sympathic on any level. They’re two emotional stunted people in a toxic relationship. Luke and Leia not growing up with either is why they ended up functional caring people.

Saying “it’s a story” is just an excuse for terrible writing. Under a better writer Anakin and Padme could have worked and been sympathic. We’re supposed to care about them, not right them off as doomed from the start. It’s not a tragedy, it’s a foregone conclusion. A tragedy is seeing a character you like falling to the Dark Side, not a psychopath becoming a monster.

Humans kill, main, rape, loot, smuggle, molest, and do other heinous things ALL the time.

Humans are not sympathetic much of the time.

An author or a director or a screenwriter does not owe the readership or the viewership ANYTHING except the authenticity of what they want to write or show. NOTHING ELSE.

If you like it and get something about it, cool. If you don't, go watch something else that you identify with.

 

[Kevman7987]

Well, this thread went to hell since I was last here...

 

[Awesome Possum]

Humans kill, main, rape, loot, smuggle, molest, and do other heinous things ALL the time.

Humans are not sympathetic much of the time.

An author or a director or a screenwriter does not owe the readership or the viewership ANYTHING except the authenticity of what they want to write or show. NOTHING ELSE.

If you like it and get something about it, cool. If you don't, go watch something else that you identify with.

Do you know that none of that is heroic though? Because Anakin was supposed to be a hero and he doesn’t do heroic things, he kills children. Anakin is shown as a dangerous psychopath, angry with every single aspect of his life. If he were in any other film he’d be the villain or a spree killer. Yet the movie clearly wants us to care about him, which if you’re a normal functioning human you can’t do.

 

[fireproof78]

Humans kill, main, rape, loot, smuggle, molest, and do other heinous things ALL the time.

Humans are not sympathetic much of the time.

An author or a director or a screenwriter does not owe the readership or the viewership ANYTHING except the authenticity of what they want to write or show. NOTHING ELSE.

If you like it and get something about it, cool. If you don't, go watch something else that you identify with.

Yeah, no. It's a story about how a good person turns evil, which Anakin never feels like. He simply goes from an arrogant jerk to a bad guy, with little transition between the two, aside from the occasional atmospheric shot. Atmospheric shots, by the way, don't make a character for an audience member to identify with.

 

[Trekkin]

"A long LONG time ago, in a galaxy far FAR away".

What about that fucking sentence tells you that it was set in the 2000s in the USA?

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

There is no galaxy a long time ago, and far far away. Nothing in the movie, characterisation or otherwise, was ever determined by its setting.

It’s dictated by a bunch of Americans making some decisions the 70’s, 90/00’s, and ‘10’s.

And even if the setting did dictate behaviour...why the fuck is it ‘logical’ that a bunch of laser sword wielding aliens would adhere to our examples ‘classical’ behaviour? And not just the history and mythology of humanity as a whole, but archetypes from a few specific cultures?

For eg. Star Wars owes an assload on its ‘inspiration’ to Kurosawa. Now, I admittedly haven’t seen Kurosawa’s entire canon. And his female characters aren’t always the most active lot. But I’ve yet to see one where the female hero just lays down and dies of nothing but grief over her husband being an arsehole.

Hell, Kurosawa even adapted a few Shakespearean tragedies. The female leads did fall into other stereotypes, but they were still miles a-fucking-head of Padme. Part of the reason Ran holds up so well, is because Lady Kaede was a frigging fantastic update of her source material.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It’s trying to justify bad writing by claiming it was intentional.

 

[T'Bonz]

She's not real and her kind of story is something that's been in myth and literature for a eons... I'm sure if she was a real person, you'd have talked her out of it...

Well duh, of course she's not a real person. However, she is presented in her fictional universe as a real woman and she made a really boneheaded choice.

It's disheartening to know that even though "her kind of story is something that's been in myth and literature for a eons" that a supposedly futuristic woman would make a catastrophic choice like that. Do people never LEARN from history? The romance just yanked me right out of the movie - I'm like why would this woman in her position in her universe hook up with this guy? Answer: She wouldn't unless something was really wrong in her brainbox.

 

[Awesome Possum]

For a character to work, you need to be able to relate to them on some way. District 9 did that with a bug alien. He was completely non-human but had recognizable desires and emotions. He wanted to save his son and his people from a horrific existence that's about to get worse. We can relate to that desire and get emotionally invested in him.

I can't relate to a woman, depicted as a serious yet still warm and friendly woman spend time with a man who she last saw ten years ago when they were children. A man who immediately begins making creepy comments about her. They shove them into romantic locals, but he keeps going on rants about Obi-Wan. It's not even awkward, it's disturbing. Then he admits to mass murder, not with regret or remorse but with vicious anger. There isn't a person alive who wouldn't immediately back away slowly. Yet she comforts him and can't believe he does it again years later, finally turning on her. It's like a Lifetime movie where you're supposed to root for them staying together.

 

[F. King Daniel]

While it makes for horrible Star Wars movies, sadly I've seen that kind of relationship play out in my social circle all too often.

Just assume all the words they say are bollocks, Padme thought Anni had a hot bod and that overrode any big obvious warning signs he telegraphed.

 

[wayoung]

Wow. "The sequels suck because they don't have a romance on the level of Anakin and Padme" was not a complaint I was expecting.

 

[Tuskin38]

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[TREK_GOD_1]

So, the Force can change but not the characters response to it?

The Force change was big enough. Nearly everything in the SW galaxy hinges on the Force (either it using people or people using it), so for the perception/use/philosophy to change so drastically, it was going to have an impact n everything else (in the greater conflict) without the need for certain character motifs (at least among the new, young heroes) to change. That's the fairy tale hook.

Here's the thing about mythology-it reflects the times and cultures in which it is crafted. The idea that somehow Star Wars cannot evolve because of fairy tale tropes is a fallacy. Fairy tales evolve with the culture, not the other way around.

The Lucas mythology--SW--was created in the 70s, but as Lucas as state time and again, he wanted to create something that would send an unambiguous message about ideas of good and evil, etc. (like a fairy tale) different than the post-Vietnam War, disillusioned, anti-hero films that were overflowing from studios great and small. In borrowing from myths of old, that was the one pillar of tradition in a film that happened to be set in space. Six SW films have gone in that direction for a reason--because it communicates something generations from nearly every corner of the world understands in how it builds characters.

It is tragic, but it is also creepy. Anakin keeps forcing a romance towards her until she finally falls in to a caregiver role with the Sandpeople. And then, she blindly accepts his slaughter of Geonsians, and the army of the Republic.

Padme is not giving in to Anakin's romantic overtures (so its not really force). In fact, she expresses reasons why they should not be together, but it must have been genuine enough that she remains in the relationship after the Sandpeople killings, hence her declaration of love (on Geonosis) moments before they are to be executed. Regarding his ROTS killings, remember, on Mustafar, she's the one pulling away--fearing he's consumed by whatever he's bought into. She did not really believe Obi-Wan;s account (younglings), but she still believed Anakin was losing himself when he (as far as she knows) is a good person.

It's also that if undermines Padme's character in a way that is never addressed.

From time to time, I've heard some make that argument, but the counter is always: how should she have reacted throughout the PT? Never fallen in love? Or once in a relationship, dump him when something goes wrong? Turn him over to Obi-Wan? She was operating on her faith in her love for him, which is why she confronted him (on Mustafar) in the only way she knew how--not as a senator (or former queen), but as his wife and friend.

Padme making decisions based on love (no matter Anakin's misdeeds) is not only one of the more realistic emotional reactions of any character in the PT, but accomplishes exactly what Lucas wanted: for her dedicated heart to be repaid with heartbreak for both. Yoda warned that Anakin's atttachements would lead down the wrong path, but he (Anakin), Padme and the galaxy had to pay the price for that. Some may argue over the merits of other parts of the PT, but Lucas captured his intended tragic romance (and why it happened) perfectly.

BINGO. It's amazing to me how people don't get this... books and movies aren't just meant to be a reflectio of life, they're also meant to be lessons. What a boring lesson it would be if every character in a book or movie or a TV show did what we SHOULD do.

Thank you! Well said!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

What upending of the Force?

Meaning TLJ leaves us with the idea that everything we were told about how the Force works (from Jedi and Sith alike) was incorrect all along. The idea of the Force being in balance--or needing to be balanced, concepts of dark & light was pretty much tossed out of the window. Add Kylo's sort of "evolving" idea of using his power as expressed to Rey (post Snoke's death) and Yoda's talk with Luke, and TLJ is telling us all of those lives practicing/listening to the Force in a very specific way for--as ANH Kenobi put it--"A thousand generations" (in the service of being Jedi Knights) were wrong. Its like generations of your family serving a political party, and you--based on party tenets--believed you were doing the right thing in the one & only right way, only to find out, you've actually contributed to the problems and/or misunderstanding you were working to solve.

 

[Set Harth]

I have no idea if that a serious correction, or just building on a joke.

It's from film dialogue.

the female hero just lays down and dies of nothing but grief over her husband being an arsehole.

There was probably a little more going on than just that. This is SW we're talking about here, not real life; in SW, when something otherwise inexplicable takes place, it usually has to do with the Force.

Which is why the Jedi must end.

The trailer was a fakeout.

Meaning TLJ leaves us with the idea that everything we were told about how the Force works (from Jedi and Sith alike) was incorrect all along.

TLJ is telling us all of those lives practicing/listening to the Force in a very specific way for--as ANH Kenobi put it--"A thousand generations" (in the service of being Jedi Knights) were wrong.

I didn't see that at all, I don't know where you're getting that from.

The idea of the Force being in balance--or needing to be balanced, concepts of dark & light was pretty much tossed out of the window.

Not at all. In fact, the film reinforces this.

"Balance. Powerful light, powerful darkness."