Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

While I agree that the discussion that TLJ has brought on has been amazing, I find it interesting that you bring forward the idea of "fluff" when describing Canto Bight. I certainly agree that it is the weakest part of the film, but I think its trying to discuss the idea of class inequality, something that I believe is very important to address these days.

I am neutral in regards to societal issues and political stances, so them discussing in itself did not bother me.

By fluff, I meant the standard chase scene, the cute looking horses- erm I mean alien domestic livestock and running through town like a running of the bulls through Spain, the escape sequence etc.

In itself, the mission technically had a link to the films plot, but it was tenuous to me and dependent on a “jerk character” contrivance. All it took was for Holdo to even say I have a plan, not necessarily describing it in detail, to Poe and no mission; Poe even verbally said just to at least reassure him there was hope. I like Laura Dern and felt this significantly dragged down her character arc, her epic sacrifice (one of the best visuals and character moments in Star Wars ever) nonwithstanding. No Canto. Instead she refuses to even humor Poe and we this get the sidequest to gain extra experience points and level up our heroes.

Did it to it well? Um... not really. It was a little too hamfisted in that storyline. But it tried. And I give it credit for that.

Agreed. Again, if it’s done subtly there’s really no issue here. I will say that a 2x4 to my head might have gotten the point across too and with less time. Joking aside, I do wonder how a movie that went subtle in a good way and gave us two sides to the issues of the Jedi, our past defining us and so on went from that to posting in neon signs “CLASS INEQUALITY IS BAD”.

As for the deconstruction of the old ways, you're absolutely right in suggesting that it reverses that in the end.

I have no problem with this, I was mainly saying it seemed that way as you have ravenous wolves across the fan base screaming that “ Rian is trying to kill the franchise, he said wants to bury the past, OMG”. They really need to rewatch the film and see that Rian was trying to get us to think about the core of Star Wars and be balanced with such. You can have change while paying respect to what came before. Just don’t let it bog you down

But let's think about it for a second what actually happened here. Rey rejected Luke's message of trying to stop Ben Solo. But what happens in the end? Luke sacrifices himself for the good of his friends and Rey takes the sacred Jedi texts. Luke, while saving the galaxy, still had a connection to the Jedi Order of the Republic. The training from Obi-Wan and Yoda is based in that Order. Rey has the books, a little training of the basics of the Force from Luke and a whole lot of intuition. She's going back to the basics. None of the weight of the Jedi Council or the Sith, but just what the original Jedi believed in its purest form. We'll see what JJ has planned for Ep9 but it seems what Rian was trying to do was take things back to the basics. It can all be summed up in Leia's final line:

"We have everything we need."

Exactly. I liked the prequels, but it’s made abundantly clear that despite their best intentions, the Jedi Order at the end was flawed, complacent and did make mistakes. Rians point, IMHO, is in line with yours: use the past to grow, find the positives, and move forward with a balanced outlook.

 

[Tuskin38]

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[CorporalCaptain]

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Nope.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

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I watched. And laughed. And he removed some sins for the hyperspace scene, the throne room and so on. He makes good points and then some are just splitting hairs. But that’s his MO for every movie

 

[Campe]

I watched this last night. I love EWW, but damn was that just as nitpicky as some fanboys are. I can't help but wonder if it was more parody than anything.

 

[Tuskin38]

EWWs video are mostly parody, but usually have some legit points.

Nope.

I like the movie and found the video enjoyable.

 

[fireproof78]

I watched this last night. I love EWW, but damn was that just as nitpicky as some fanboys are. I can't help but wonder if it was more parody than anything.

They are not meant to be legitimate reviewers so, yes to the more parody part. They just get taken seriously.

 

[DigificWriter]

Yes, Canto Bight is unnecessary, but it's intentionally unnecessary.

People keep wanting to "fix" TLJ and get rid of Canto Bight by having Holdo offer unwarranted and undeserved explanations to Poe, but that approach completely misses the point and places blame on the wrong person.

The way you get rid of Canto Bight is to have Poe act smarter and not go off "half-cocked" and send Finn and Rose on a "wild Bantha chase".

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I don't think Canto Bight should be gotten rid of, nor do I think Poe had any real right to answers, but it does undermine Holdo's character to be so closed-off even in the face of near mutiny for no apparent reason.

I think the whole sequence would've done an excellent job of tying the movie together with just a little shuffling of the sub-plots and supporting characters. There should've been a spy in the rebel fleet to help explain Holdo's behavior (and better support the idea of this ridiculously powerful new tech the bad guys suddenly have) - this would have also improved the lesson the Poe has to learn by making it more nuanced and complex. Not just 'think before you act' but also 'responsibility for everyone also means understanding when not to trust others blindly'.

On the casino side, it would strongly have benefited from a different character instead of DJ. His whole will he or won't he betray them shtick was way too obvious (of course he was going to betray them) and massively detracted from the actual themes of the sequence, despite his little speech about the lack of difference between the good guys and the bad guys. They would've done better to just find the guy they were actually looking for and let him be a 1%er jackass like everyone else in the casino, golfing buddies with murderers, etc, etc, but in the end have him actually keep his word and help the rebels because its what's good for him - that would be a much stronger statement on the disgusting ideology Canto Bight represents.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying to just remove the Canto Bight sequence - it could definitely use some trimming, but the casino sequence is necessary to the themes and the chase sequence is absolutely unmissable setup to the final scene of the movie. A bit of trimming and the above tweaking, and I think it would fit perfectly into the movie, maintain the important aspect of the whole thing being totally unnecessary plot wise and vastly increase the level to which it is necessary to the themes of the movie.

 

[Trekkin]

in the face of near mutiny for no apparent reason.

It’s interesting.

Poe’s ‘mutiny’ ends up comprised of about 6 people. Who instantly switch sides the second he’s knocked out.

Where’s everyone else? Why, it turns out they’re all preparing to evacuate!

So why didn’t Poe get the message that literally everyone else on the ship knows about? Oh, that’s right...he never even attempted to report to his actual post. Instead he ran off to the engine room to conspire with Finn and Rose, and later started attempting a little revolution.

Then he finds that Holdo does, in fact, have a plan...he attempts to mutiny again. And leaks the Resistance plan to the enemy. And wastes people’s precious not-dead-yet time, by forcing them to drag his unconscious ass around.

And thus, hundreds of Resistance members die. As does Luke.

D’oh.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It’s interesting.

Poe’s ‘mutiny’ ends up comprised of about 6 people. Who instantly switch sides the second he’s knocked out.

Where’s everyine else? Why, it turns out they’re all preparing to evacuate!

So why didn’t Poe get the message that literally everyone else on the ship knows about? Oh, that’s right...he never even attempted to report to his actual post. Instead he ran off to the engine room to conspire with Finn and Rose, and later started attempting a little revolution.

And thus, hundreds of Resistance members die. As does Luke. D’oh.

I'll have to watch out for that when i get the dvd. But even if that's the case, it would actually make the setup less logical, not more. If Holdo actually did tell everyone, then why not just tell Poe during one of their multiple confrontations (and then immediately demote him for failing to do his job while chasing conspiracy theories)? For that matter, if she actually did tell everyone, then how he did not find out just from walking around the ship? Were all the people making preparations invisible?

 

[Trekkin]

We don’t see him talking to anyone else until he gets it in his head to mutiny. Prior to that, he was hiding so he could keep in contact with Finn. The crewmember he bitches about Holdo to during her introduction, does look askance at him though.

Presumably, he would have gotten his orders from a commanding officer once he reported to his post. That’s how it tends to work.

Even without concerns about moles - and Poe having just killed dozens (if not hundreds) of people via mutinying against Leia, and being demoted as a result - Admirals don’t usually personally deliver their orders to any old crewmember.

And again, Holdo does end up telling him their evacuating. He still tries to mutiny. For the exact reason he overrode Leia’s authority at the start.

Holdo also told him in her first five minutes of screentime, that she wasn’t taking him on as personally favoured protege the way Leia did. Because she knew he did stupid shit in the name of ‘heroics.’

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Holdo also told him in her first five minutes of screentime, that she wasn’t taking him on as personally favoured protege the way Leia did. Because she knew he did stupid shit in the name of ‘heroics.’

Yet, when Poe is put down she says she “likes this one” to Leia and smiles.

FWIW, CinemaSins vid above posted, pointed this out and basically called bull that a person would like someone who is responsible for the death of dozens for disobeying orders, demoted, doesn’t learn his lesson, and mutinies again. I like Holdo but it felt like she didn’t have a consider characterization. Again, Poe at first wants details but then settled and just asks Holdo to just confirm there is even a plan and she calls him flyboy and refuses. They never give a Holdo a reason as to why she’s withholding from people what is happening. Keep in mind that as you stated, five others joined Poe; they were kept in the dark too about the existence of a plan or lack therof. Otherwise, why mutiny? So what was Holdo’s reason for not telling them? Sadism? But then later after Poe shows even more disobedience she basically says “oh that silly Poe is at it again. He’s so cute when he’s committing mutiny”. The heck?!

She was a pawn of the plot, used to accomplish what the writers needed to get Finn to Canto Bight. Canto derived from one big plot contrivance. And even those who disagree said that it could have been executed better. I stand by my assertion that it was by far a weak spot in what in my mind is a decent film. And I liked Holdo; just felt her character deserved a better arc

 

[Grendelsbayne]

We're still left just having to assume that he somehow magically didn't see any of the things that were going on around him. And that all of the people who supported him also never showed up to their posts and never saw any of these things, either. And what is really the narrative upshot of it?

Holdo's arc would be better served, not worse, by not deliberately trying to make the audience think she's incompetent.

Poe's arc would be better served, not worse, by adding more complexity and nuance to the lesson he learns.

And in the end, I'm really not even sure if this idea of Holdo having actually told everyone is even true in the first place. The impression I got while in the theater was that she had a specific group of people preparing the ships for evacuation and that everyone else was being kept in the dark until the last second. But, like I said, that's a question for rewatch, which I can't do just yet.

 

[Trekkin]

And that all of the people who supported him also never showed up to their posts and never saw any of these things, either. And what is really the narrative upshot of it?

There was only around 5 of them. And the implication was that they just followed Poe because they trusted him above all else when he started muttering about traitors. Like Paige and the bombers did when he ordered the attack at the beginning.

Also, you weren’t meant to think Holdo was incompetent. You were meant to think she was gonna be a bad egg.

And in the end, I'm really not even sure if this idea of Holdo having actually told everyone is even true in the first place. The impression I got while in the theater was that she had a specific group of people preparing the ships for evacuation and that everyone else was being kept in the dark until the last second. But, like I said, that's a question for rewatch, which I can't do just yet.

We see at the very least, that the officers are all in on it.

Even Poe sees it. It’s why he shoves a gun in their faces.

Yet, when Poe is put down she says she “likes this one” to Leia and smiles

Probably the same reason why people seem to like Han for most of the series, but treat him like the Rebel’s resident bum until ROTJ.

Plus, Holdo’s own backstory has her as being a lot like him earlier in life. But you know what they say about books...

Although, I don’t think she lived long enough to find out Poe sent her plan directly to the enemies flag ship. Or any of the bullshit with Finn and Rose. She might have been a bit more annoyed then.

 

[David cgc]

Presumably, he would have gotten his orders from a commanding officer once he reported to his post. That’s how it tends to work.

Trouble is, Poe's superior officer was Poe; he was in charge of the Resistance's fighter forces (such as they were, the ships that weren't destroyed with the Dreadnaught being obliterated by Kylo Ren's bombing run). I'm pretty sure there wasn't anyone in the org chart between him and Leia. Freezing him out of the command structure without giving him anything else to do or anyone to report to was an oversight by Holdo, but she'd never met him, so didn't really have a reason to think he wouldn't just sulk and wait to die with the rest of the crew once he was left on-duty but without any actual duties to do. Ty.

 

[Trekkin]

He was only Wing Commander to start with. Even that requires reporting to someone. Several someone’s, even.

So even assuming that nobody moved into his position, there was still someone. And he was demoted to captain, not suspended, so they probably thought he’d just you know...do what all the rest of the surviving pilots were doing.

I rewatched this with my sister the other day, which is why I have this shit stuck in my damn brain. She kept laughing at the various rank shenanigans in TLJ. Like presenting ‘Captain’ as a demotion from Commander. Or the movie making it appear that Admirals and Marshall’s are being promoted to General.

(In the books, Holdo and Leia are equals. Holdo’s just willing to follow Leia’s judgement.)

She also suggested someone just shoot Poe, and I’m like...is that normal military values? Or has she personally just gotten a bit scary?

 

[Qonundrum]

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It's funny, but as with a number of their reviews they don't always get it right.

After IX, maybe they will be right.

The rather obvious issue of the mystery map leading to the magical mystery tour to get to Luke, the same bloke who says he wanted to be left alone... Come on, anyone in Kindergarten could fathom that there's intrigue and a trap behind the map to begin with. Part of a bigger picture in this ongoing saga.(Though, okay, maybe someone mentioning the kerfuffle from "Episode VII: A Remake of Little Hope" might have been nice, but if I of all peopl can figure the possibility out...)

I've mentioned Chewie in the Porgs as well, though I agree that maybe a little exposition would be useful and relevant given the paradigm shift between his midnight snack and then forming an alliance with them. Either which way, it's simple, easy, and fun: Porg > Barney the Dinosaur > starving termites > supernova > getting sucked in a black hole or dispersed along its edge > my filthy ex > Ewoks. Wait, swap those last two around. A thinly veiled parody of the Viet Cong couldn't be worse than my ex...

 

[Qonundrum]

Oh, I am waiting for RLM to sock it to this movie, the way they did the prequels and TFA. Wish they'd go after the OT the way CinemaSins had, especially for kissy kissy bang bang sis-on-bro action going on all the time...

 

[Tuskin38]

It's funny, but as with a number of their reviews they don't always get it right.

It’s not a review, it’s mostly parody/satire.

Though too many people seem to take them seriously.