Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[theenglish]

The old canon novel Darth Plageuis established that the Force itself created Anakin as a reaction to Plageuis and Sidious attempting to wrest control of the Force. Now, it's not technically canon anymore, but the new canon novel Tarkin references several events of that novel so I consider it to be canon still.

My guess would be to treat those references the same way the new DC universe treats events before Flashpoint. Writers can reference events that happened in the previous continuity, but the reader shouldn't assume that that means other events happened.

 

[cooleddie74]

It would be worth forever eliminating the term "Mary Sue" from the lexicon if it meant never again having to see Rey referred to as one when she's clearly not. I don't really like the term to begin with and having to see it posted all over Facebook like she's a red Starbucks coffee cup got old and fast.

You don't have to like Rey and can think she's a poorly-written character (which, spoiler alert: she's not) but enough with the "every one of her powers, skills and talents shows up out of the blue with no background or explanations and she exists solely to save the rest of our heroes" stuff when she's clearly a more three-dimensional and personally-motivated character than that.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

^^

I also don't see Rey as a Mary Sue. She's a character who is intuitive, and takes initiative and seems to be always learning. Not too mention, she's on a planet where there are unsavory and possible violent types. Hence, the reason she knows how to fly ships (particularly the Millenium Falcon - a ship she was already familiar with since she refers to it as 'garbage') and fight well.

I should also mention this: I think Kylo Ren is a stronger character than Vader. Granted, there is more to come, but I find Ren a lot more 'scary' and interesting based on the 2 hours we were introduced to the character than the three movies where we focused on Anakin.

Kylo Ren needs to be taken out by Rey in a future episode in another lightsaber battle, while Anakin just needed to man up (or get a hand whoopin')...

 

[Michael]

Daisy Ridley is magnetic and ferocious, and she breathes life and sincerity into Rey at every turn. The theme John Williams wrote for her invokes both humble beginnings and grand possibilities, and I can’t imagine the less-than-earned scenes I mentioned being getting that kind of a visceral response with another actor at the helm. These moments satiated the desires of two, maybe even three generations of fans that would settle for nothing less than classic Star Wars, and even more that were starved to see it through a new lens. It’s a testament to both her prowess as a performer and Abrams’ expert eye for casting that she was able to fulfill that role. However, in the process of creating great moments that are derived more from iconography than from externalizing the internal journeys of the characters, or some healthy combination of the two, I can’t help but feel like both Rey and The Force Awakens were shortchanged… That doesn't mean I love them any less. It just means I know they can be better.

Thanks for posting that! I couldn't agree more with this!

It would be worth forever eliminating the term "Mary Sue" from the lexicon if it meant never again having to see Rey referred to as one when she's clearly not. I don't really like the term to begin with and having to see it posted all over Facebook like she's a red Starbucks coffee cup got old and fast.

You don't have to like Rey and can think she's a poorly-written character (which, spoiler alert: she's not) but enough with the "every one of her powers, skills and talents shows up out of the blue with no background or explanations and she exists solely to save the rest of our heroes" stuff when she's clearly a more three-dimensional and personally-motivated character than that.

And this! Calling Rey a Mary Sue is not only factually wrong, but also seems to downplay her significance as a female character Star Wars hasn't seen before and was in dire need of to stay relevant.

I should also mention this: I think Kylo Ren is a stronger character than Vader. Granted, there is more to come, but I find Ren a lot more 'scary' and interesting based on the 2 hours we were introduced to the character than the three movies where we focused on Anakin.

Kylo Ren needs to be taken out by Rey in a future episode in another lightsaber battle, while Anakin just needed to man up (or get a hand whoopin')...

Yes, I thought so, too. Having a villain who is fighting his light side for a change was an interesting idea. I'm sure having him kill his father was a means to telegraph to the audience that he has now completely crossed over to the dark side. However, I would find it much more powerful, if in the course of the second movie, he actually comes to his senses and fights alongside Rey and the others. That would be a twist!

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I should also mention this: I think Kylo Ren is a stronger character than Vader. Granted, there is more to come, but I find Ren a lot more 'scary' and interesting based on the 2 hours we were introduced to the character than the three movies where we focused on Anakin.

Kylo Ren needs to be taken out by Rey in a future episode in another lightsaber battle, while Anakin just needed to man up (or get a hand whoopin')...

Yes, I thought so, too. Having a villain who is fighting his light side for a change was an interesting idea. I'm sure having him kill his father was a means to telegraph to the audience that he has now completely crossed over to the dark side. However, I would find it much more powerful, if in the course of the second movie, he actually comes to his senses and fights alongside Rey and the others. That would be a twist!

If it's written well, I'm all for it. There are a lot of men and women of all ages that are upset with this character... If they have a snazzy way for him to redeem himself, cool.

Everything in Episode 7 was an introduction, so hopefully we'll see some build up for not only Kylo Ren but Rey...Finn...and Poe. (I should mention Phasma since her time was brief as well).

 

[ancient]

Rey has never seen the inside of a working ship before

Presumptive and almost certainly wrong. Rey confirms to Finn that she is a pilot.

I don't remember that line. They should've shown her doing pilot things, the crashed destroyer scene would've been the perfect time.

and immediately is an expert

This is an incorrect statement. Unless crashing the ship into the ground and ground structures qualifies as "expert" status.

The flying was actually mindblowingly good imo.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I don't remember that line.

While they are running from TIEs, Finn says something about needing a pilot, to which Rey vehemently replies, "We have one" (in reference to herself, obviously). So it's explicitly established that she's a pilot.

They should've shown her doing pilot things, the crashed destroyer scene would've been the perfect time. The flying was actually mindblowingly good imo.

Not that I completely agree, but both of those are valid criticisms. More often than not, showing is usually more effective than simply telling - so it would certainly have been more effective to show those aspects of Rey's character, rather than rely on just dialog to convey them. Still, those aspects of the character are present in the film. Which is why I objected to: "Rey has never seen the inside of a working ship before and immediately is an expert."

 

[ancient]

I guess I should add ~as seen in the movie~ as a subtitle to what I said. Obviously, Rey could've been doing barrel rolls in the Millennium Falcon every single day & twice on Sunday for the past ten years in theory. I'm sure I'll notice more things when I see the movie for a second time - when it comes out on DvD. I completely forgot the x-wing doll thing too until someone on this board brought it up.

 

[Mr Light]

Not to mention the fact that Rey clearly had intimate knowledge of the Falcon even though she never actually flew it. She must have been doing maintenance on it for Simon Pegg all these years.

 

[Magellan]

It would be worth forever eliminating the term "Mary Sue" from the lexicon if it meant never again having to see Rey referred to as one when she's clearly not. I don't really like the term to begin with and having to see it posted all over Facebook like she's a red Starbucks coffee cup got old and fast.

I'm ok with that. Wikipedia's first sentence on the topic is "A Mary Sue or, in case of a male, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities". To me, that sounds like it's fair game to call her it, but ultimately the term is not important. Mary Sue designation is just an attempt to describe what she is. I think some people are a bit too caught up in trying to prove she is or she isn't. Fundamentally that isn't what matters. I used the term, correctly as I understand it, but my point is not whether she fits a precise rigid definition exactly. It's describing her apparent, and to me, unbelievable skill set. If we had some kind of Supreme Court of Tropes declaring her not to be a Mary Sue it wouldn't make me like the character anymore than I already do. Or, I suspect, the reverse would not make you like her less

You don't have to like Rey and can think she's a poorly-written character (which, spoiler alert: she's not) but enough with the "every one of her powers, skills and talents shows up out of the blue with no background or explanations and she exists solely to save the rest of our heroes" stuff when she's clearly a more three-dimensional and personally-motivated character than that.

Did I miss the scene where she found out the force can control peoples minds? You gotta admit at least a couple of her abilities do pop up out of the blue.

In actuality even if they painstakingly detailed why she was great at everything, is she really a more interesting character for it? Is the movie better for bundling nearly all of the best skills in one character instead of spreading them around a bit?

However, I would find it much more powerful, if in the course of the second movie, he actually comes to his senses and fights alongside Rey and the others.

I suspect that's the plan. Maybe he goes a bit darker before coming back but I see them wanting to use him as a reverse Anakin. He can't turn good at the last second(too Vader-ish) so in the next movie would be my bet. Maybe we can throw everyone for a loop, have Kylo turn light and Rey turn dark. Cue internet equivalent of nuclear armageddon

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I guess I should add ~as seen in the movie~ as a subtitle to what I said. Obviously, Rey could've been doing barrel rolls in the Millennium Falcon every single day & twice on Sunday for the past ten years in theory. I'm sure I'll notice more things when I see the movie for a second time - when it comes out on DvD. I completely forgot the x-wing doll thing too until someone on this board brought it up.

Fair enough. Rey's portrayal absolutely works for me, but I can understand the criticism that while she does face adversity and demonstrate mistakes, she seems, for some viewers, to excel too quickly. There's more than enough in the film (and implied for future reveal - such as Rey being part of the Skywalker family tree) for me to accept those character developments as both plausible and compelling, but I also acknowledge that it's possible for others to not have enough demonstrated on-screen to accept those developments.

Did I miss the scene where she found out the force can control peoples minds?

You mean, the whole scene where Ren was attempting to control Rey's mind, forcing her to act against her will, and she fought back? Realizing that one can use the Force to compel others to your own wishes - if the other isn't strong enough to fight back?

 

[ancient]

Mary Sue designation is just an attempt to describe what she is. I think some people are a bit too caught up in trying to prove she is or she isn't. Fundamentally that isn't what matters. I used the term, correctly as I understand it, but my point is not whether she fits a precise rigid definition exactly. It's describing her apparent, and to me, unbelievable skill set.

People do sometimes act like this sort of thing is criticism of the character as if they were a real person, and not criticism of the writing of the character. People's opinions on the quality of the character may change for better or worse depending on the storyteller.

Maybe we can throw everyone for a loop, have Kylo turn light and Rey turn dark. Cue internet equivalent of nuclear armageddon

Actually, Leia is the dark lord! What a twist!

Did I miss the scene where she found out the force can control peoples minds?

You mean, the whole scene where Ren was attempting to control Rey's mind, forcing her to act against her will, and she fought back? Realizing that one can use the Force to compel others to your own wishes - if the other isn't strong enough to fight back?

Those seem like two different kinds of mind control to me. Then again, there is a fan theory about Rey essentially reverse mind raping him and learning all sorts of stuff. I wish they could make that sort of thing clearer.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ Mind control is still ... mind control.

And Rey "reverse mind raping him and learning all sorts of stuff" isn't a fan theory and isn't unclear at all. Unlike the references to her piloting abilities, it's rather explicitly depicted in the film (her telling Ren that he's afraid of living up to his vision Darth Vader).

ETA:
The reaction to using "Mary Sue" as a "criticism" is because the term is being misapplied and is being used as a lazy short-hand for any actual, thoughtful critique of the character. As you, yourself, have demonstrated, it's possible to critique Rey without resorting to such absolutist and hyperbolic terms such as "Mary Sue."

 

[ancient]

Well obviously she learned things about him & his emotions. She went from thinking the force was a 'myth' at the start of the movie to cranking out jedi abilities and name dropping Darth Vader. One might almost call it an "Awakening" or something to that general effect.

It's just not spelled out specifically what she learned during the mind-meld. It was therefor pretty sudden when she starts doing the mind trick. The mind trick isn't introduced as a thing until then. Again, this goes back to my general complaint of Abrams rushing the plot & glossing over details too fast for my liking.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

this goes back to my general complaint of Abrams rushing the plot & glossing over details too fast for my liking.

Well, like I said, that's entirely valid. But that particular critique at least acknowledges that, while the developments occur too quickly, there are in-film reasons for them - as evidenced by how Rey learns from Ren's attempt to break into her mind by trying to break into the mind of her guard. So yeah, while it may not have been explicit enough for you, the rationale for it was certainly present in the film.

 

[Blue_Trek]

Down goes Titanic and Avatar is next

 

[Ithekro]

The way I see it, every one of Rey's abilities is either established before we see her use them, or she observes someone use them in the case of Force abilities, before trying to copy the ability for herself. At least those that haven't been established as Jedi traits in prior films. Abilities that do not require training, they are just something someone with the Force can do.

Jedi Mind Trick, she observes Kylo poking in her mind first hand, and pokes back. Then attempts to poke a stormtrooper to get free. It takes a bit but she's persistent.

Telekinesis, she observers Kylo trying to reach out for Anakin's lightsaber, and trying to pull it free. She then tries as he does his second attempt. I think she only managed to redirect his pull rather than pull the saber free herself, and Kylo didn't seem startled until it went past him. Sort of like she got an assist for her first go.

Lightsaber fighting? Someone pointed out about all her moves were staff moves. Add to this that it is established that you do not need to be a Jedi to use a lightsaber. You need the Force to be able to intercept blaster bolts and deflect them, but swinging a sword around is swinging a sword around. Now it is more dangerous as you can cut off your own limbs, easily. But there are several instances of someone, without the Force as their ally, using a lightsaber without doing so. The Clone Wars has at least three instances of this happening without it being General Grievous. Add to this Han use of it as a tool in ESB and Finn using it in this movie without cutting himself.

Remember, the "laser sword" was to be everyone's weapon in the early Lucas drafts. The cylinder in the stormtrooper's belts? In the back. Those were their laser swords as Lucas called them. Now they are thermal detonators.

 

[dahj]

Rey has never seen the inside of a working ship before

Presumptive and almost certainly wrong. Rey confirms to Finn that she is a pilot.

I don't remember that line. They should've shown her doing pilot things, the crashed destroyer scene would've been the perfect time.

They should have shown her piloting a thing before showing her piloting a thing to establish she can pilot things?

 

[Ithekro]

Speeder pilot. That speeder she has, supposedly she built it from what they could find. It is top heavy and needs skill to keep balanced. She has no problem with that.

Considering the only thing we saw Luke fly before hopping in an X-wing was a landspeeder, we only hear he was doing stunt flying in a canyon and hitting womp rats at speed later. We see Anakin driving a pod racer, than later flying a Starfighter.

Rey, pulls out the Falcon is wobbly at first, but by that point it is life or death. She seemed certain she was a pilot when she was going to take the quadjumper, prior to going with "garbage".

 

[Mr Light]

The other thing to keep in mind is she was probably doing all this stuff before she got mind-wiped by her parents, so it's all muscle memory. One can only assume she was a Youngling in the Jedi Academy when shit went down.