Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[DarthPipes]

Yeah but it was Section 31's poisoning of the Founders that set up the chain of events that led to the end of the war.

Yeah, and it was Jabba the Hutt's contract on Han Solo's head that set up the chain of events that led to Han and Leia falling in love, but that doesn't make Jabba a matchmaker.

But the main thing is it worked out in the end for the Federation and saved what was left of Cardassia. Score 1 for Section 31!

 

[Christopher]

Score one for attempted genocide? That's not the Star Trek philosophy, and that wasn't the point of the storyline. Section 31 was wrong. They went too far and committed an unconscionably evil act. And it was only because one good, deeply moral changeling defied their plan and gave the Founders the cure that the war was ended. So no. Score one for justice and compassion. Score one for the people with the courage to reject Section 31's expediency-over-morals philosophy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In the novelization and I believe in the original script, we learn that the Jedi have gone from being under the jurisidiction of the Senate to that of the Supreme Chancellor. That's why Palpatine appoints Anakin to the Jedi Council. In ROTS, we see the Jedi oppose all the powers that Palpatine has taken on and were resolved to remove him from power.

Of course, the real explanation is that Lucas was just making a bit of Saturday-matinee fun and never expected anyone to put a lot of thought into deconstructing its plot holes, let alone its ethics holes.

Sigh. Too much dialog has gotten edited out from all six films for us to really know what the hell is supposed to be going on. Maybe that is a clue that we're overanalyzing it, as Christopher suggests.

 

[DarthPipes]

Score one for attempted genocide? That's not the Star Trek philosophy, and that wasn't the point of the storyline. Section 31 was wrong. They went too far and committed an unconscionably evil act. And it was only because one good, deeply moral changeling defied their plan and gave the Founders the cure that the war was ended. So no. Score one for justice and compassion. Score one for the people with the courage to reject Section 31's expediency-over-morals philosophy.

Strange how one attempt at genocide (Section 31 and the Founders) stops another genocide (The Dominion trying to wipe out the Cardassians).

 

[Hound of UIster]

In the novelization and I believe in the original script, we learn that the Jedi have gone from being under the jurisidiction of the Senate to that of the Supreme Chancellor. That's why Palpatine appoints Anakin to the Jedi Council. In ROTS, we see the Jedi oppose all the powers that Palpatine has taken on and were resolved to remove him from power.

Only because he was giving himself even more war powers such as bringing the jedi and their forces under his direct authority when they already had the Confederacy on the run and Count Dooku dead.

 

[Christopher]

Strange how one attempt at genocide (Section 31 and the Founders) stops another genocide (The Dominion trying to wipe out the Cardassians).

You've got it completely backward. You keep giving the genocide credit for good that was actually done by Odo's rejection of genocide. If Odo hadn't defied Starfleet orders and given the Founders the cure, their genocide on Cardassia would not have ended. They would've just kept on fighting until they went extinct and torn down half the galaxy along with them.

I can't believe you're seriously trying to argue that genocide could ever be justified, even in a fictional context. The very idea is beyond hideous.

Your logic is also fatally flawed. Consider: prior to WWII, anti-Semitism was rampant and accepted in the United States. But once Hitler's atrocities against the Jews and others were exposed, once people saw how evil anti-Semitism truly was, a reformation set in and Americans rejected that form of bigotry. Moreover, since WWII required Americans to set aside past differences and band together, it sparked a wave of postwar civil-rights movements that eventually ended up transforming America into a more equal society where discrimination is far less tolerated. And all this happened as a reaction to Hitler's acts of bigotry taken to its extreme. So by the logic you're using here, Adolf Hitler is responsible for the more fair and equal society we have today. And that's obviously bull. It was the people who rejected Hitler's ways, who saw their evils and were inspired to stand up against them, who deserve the credit for changing our country for the better.

So by the same token, it's not Section 31 that deserves the credit for ending the war, it's Odo and his rejection of Section 31's agenda.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well put, Christopher.

 

[Dac]

Strange how one attempt at genocide (Section 31 and the Founders) stops another genocide (The Dominion trying to wipe out the Cardassians).

You've got it completely backward. You keep giving the genocide credit for good that was actually done by Odo's rejection of genocide. If Odo hadn't defied Starfleet orders and given the Founders the cure, their genocide on Cardassia would not have ended. They would've just kept on fighting until they went extinct and torn down half the galaxy along with them.

I can't believe you're seriously trying to argue that genocide could ever be justified, even in a fictional context. The very idea is beyond hideous.

Your logic is also fatally flawed. Consider: prior to WWII, anti-Semitism was rampant and accepted in the United States. But once Hitler's atrocities against the Jews and others were exposed, once people saw how evil anti-Semitism truly was, a reformation set in and Americans rejected that form of bigotry. Moreover, since WWII required Americans to set aside past differences and band together, it sparked a wave of postwar civil-rights movements that eventually ended up transforming America into a more equal society where discrimination is far less tolerated. And all this happened as a reaction to Hitler's acts of bigotry taken to its extreme. So by the logic you're using here, Adolf Hitler is responsible for the more fair and equal society we have today. And that's obviously bull. It was the people who rejected Hitler's ways, who saw their evils and were inspired to stand up against them, who deserve the credit for changing our country for the better.

So by the same token, it's not Section 31 that deserves the credit for ending the war, it's Odo and his rejection of Section 31's agenda.

But by that same logic, if it were not for Hitler and the Nazi's, America would still be the Jew Hating, Black segregating society it was.

Attempting to define causality is a somewhat ridiculous thing. Very very very rarely is one thing the cause for something else. It's usually a multitude of causes for a multitude of reasons which have a multitude of effects.

Also, you mentioned Nazi's, so this argument is by the rules of the internet null and void.

Can we get back to the Clone Wars please?

Who else is looking forward to Wookiee Hunt, and what would you guys wanna see in Season 4?

 

[Mach5]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics)approaches 1."
-- Mike Godwin

My God, Godwin's law should be taught in schools.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No one mention stormtroopers, though, because they're not a part of the franchise until Episode IV.

 

[DarthPipes]

Strange how one attempt at genocide (Section 31 and the Founders) stops another genocide (The Dominion trying to wipe out the Cardassians).

You've got it completely backward. You keep giving the genocide credit for good that was actually done by Odo's rejection of genocide. If Odo hadn't defied Starfleet orders and given the Founders the cure, their genocide on Cardassia would not have ended. They would've just kept on fighting until they went extinct and torn down half the galaxy along with them.

I can't believe you're seriously trying to argue that genocide could ever be justified, even in a fictional context. The very idea is beyond hideous.

Your logic is also fatally flawed. Consider: prior to WWII, anti-Semitism was rampant and accepted in the United States. But once Hitler's atrocities against the Jews and others were exposed, once people saw how evil anti-Semitism truly was, a reformation set in and Americans rejected that form of bigotry. Moreover, since WWII required Americans to set aside past differences and band together, it sparked a wave of postwar civil-rights movements that eventually ended up transforming America into a more equal society where discrimination is far less tolerated. And all this happened as a reaction to Hitler's acts of bigotry taken to its extreme. So by the logic you're using here, Adolf Hitler is responsible for the more fair and equal society we have today. And that's obviously bull. It was the people who rejected Hitler's ways, who saw their evils and were inspired to stand up against them, who deserve the credit for changing our country for the better.

So by the same token, it's not Section 31 that deserves the credit for ending the war, it's Odo and his rejection of Section 31's agenda.

I'm not trying to justify it. I'm just stating what's true...that what Section 31 did is what brought an end to the Dominion War. The exact result wasn't intended but the what happened did end things on Cardassia. Odo only had the opportunity to end the war because of the actions of Section 31.

I'm talking about a fictional show here, Christopher. Not reality.

 

[DimesDan]

I'm talking about a fictional show here, Christopher. Not reality.

Something it seems the great writer among us can't exactly understand.

As for Clone Wars, I thought the Citadel episodes were pretty funky and on the whole, this series has been fun, the graphics have been getting far better and I for one am enjoying the mix of episode types.

As for series four, I wouldn't mind seeing some Victory Class Star Destroyers either being shown or in the design stage.

 

[DarthPipes]

I'm talking about a fictional show here, Christopher. Not reality.

Something it seems the great writer among us can't exactly understand.

As for Clone Wars, I thought the Citadel episodes were pretty funky and on the whole, this series has been fun, the graphics have been getting far better and I for one am enjoying the mix of episode types.

As for series four, I wouldn't mind seeing some Victory Class Star Destroyers either being shown or in the design stage.

I think the Citadel arc could make a great mini-movie edited together.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If S31 hadn't given the Founders the virus, then Odo would have had no way to change the Female Founder's mind through his generosity. If Odo rejoining The Greak Link had been enough to get them to stop fighting, then why didn't he do that, and stop the war, long before?

But I think this was all caused by the DS9 writers kinda getting into a corner and not knowing how to get out of it in time for the series finale. Just goes to show that even the best writers can frak up a bit. I doubt they intended to send the message that "genocide works!" but maybe they did. After all, they never made Sisko and Garak pay for their own little war crimes episode, so...

Back to the actual topic!

And I'm waiting for the "secrets" to be revealed. Have the secrets been revealed all along?

I don't know about secrets, but some of my questions have finally been answered, regarding the nature of the Force and what being The Chosen One means. And they're provided more information regarding what "falling to the Dark Side" actually means to the person doing the falling, but I'm still wondering exactly how much Ahsoka's experience of it (total mind control) is representative of how it works. Shouldn't it just work one way, and if not, then what are the possible ways and why would one be different from the other?

The Republic isn't worth saving, especially since we've learn that the guilds that have caused so much corruption (Trade Federation, Banking Clan) are inexplicably STILL a part of the government during the war. If the Jedi want to end corruption, they have to flush out the Guilds.

Yeah, that's my issue with how the Jedi are apparently just pursuing a military solution, despite not chiefly being a military organization. Shouldn't it be under their purview to address all the complex problems of the Republic that could undermine it? Economic issues would be at or near the top of the list. They should be all over the Guilds like ugly on a Wookie.

Too much dialog has gotten edited out from all six films for us to really know what the hell is supposed to be going on.

Yeah, TCW is filling in the blanks so that I feel that finally I start to see what was intended all along. But the PT was where the missing info needed to be added. For the OT, the only thing missing was Luke's character growth, especially between ESB and ROTJ - but that's hard to externalize and I can infer what happened anyway.

TCW could clarify things further regarding politics - are the Jedi ignoring a big part of their responsibility or are there parallel efforts towards non-military solutions that we simply haven't seen dramatized yet?

But ultimately, this isn't a political story. It's a story about Anakin's experience as a Jedi and as the Chosen One. What does that mean to him? What is he supposed to do? Is he justified in breaking ranks with the Jedi, regardless of the disaster that occurs because of it?

As long as we can see he has intelligent and reasonably well thought through motives that are consistent with his TCW characterization as a reasonably intelligent and savvy guy, who isn't a weakling or an idiot who is easily bamboozled or panicked, then we can get from Point A to Point B without anything ludicrous happening to the characters or the plot. Really, that's all I ask of this show.

 

[DarthPipes]

But I think this was all caused by the DS9 writers kinda getting into a corner and not knowing how to get out of it in time for the series finale. Just goes to show that even the best writers can frak up a bit.

You mean, a Ron Moore writing staff didn't know how things were going to end? Surely you jest!

Yeah, that's my issue with how the Jedi are apparently just pursuing a military solution, despite not chiefly being a military organization. Shouldn't it be under their purview to address all the complex problems of the Republic that could undermine it? Economic issues would be at or near the top of the list. They should be all over the Guilds like ugly on a Wookie.

They way this war was portrayed in the movies, it looks like it was the Jedi/Republic vs Dooku and the Trade Guilds. The Republic was finally fighting against the corruption. But now we find out that the guilds that caused that corruption are still apart of the Republic. Which pretty much means the Jedi are fighting to maintain the status quo.

I find it funny that Padme is called a traitor on the show but no one thinks of accussing the Banking Clan senator who openly talks about selling arms to the Seperatists. Just how the hell does that work?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

You mean, a Ron Moore writing staff didn't know how things were going to end?

Well in Ron's defense, how many shows are there that manage to pull off six or seven seasons of mainly or wholly serialized writing, and not end up at least kinda stumbling to the finish line? BSG and Lost also had the same difficulty. So I don't ding a show too harshly for that kind of thing. One day maybe somebody will pull off a long-term serialized show and end gracefully , but it hasn't happened yet, among the shows I've ever seen, and definitely not on broadcast TV.

They way this war was portrayed in the movies, it looks like it was the Jedi/Republic vs Dooku and the Trade Guilds. The Republic was finally fighting against the corruption. But now we find out that the guilds that caused that corruption are still apart of the Republic. Which pretty much means the Jedi are fighting to maintain the status quo.

To me, the more important revelation is that the Separatists had legitimate motives to start the war. That makes the Jedi look less stupid for not questioning a war that started for no apparent "natural" reason, but also more amoral for not showing more sympathy for the Seppys.

If Padme knew they had legitimate grievances, why didn't the Jedi know that, too? Didn't the Separatist Senators make a cranky speech or two before scramming? Why haven't the Jedi been screaming their heads off all along to the Senate that it should be a central part of their strategy to make overtures to the "good" Seppys in order to induce them to break away with the "bad" ones (who presumably had only corrupt financial motives).

Fighting with the "good" Seppys is likely to just feed into their hostility towards the Republic. Why aren't the Jedi worried that they're hardening the Separatist position?

And I don't even know what to make of the Trade Guilds being part of the Republic. Are the Guilds split between loyal ones and Separatist ones?

I find it funny that Padme is called a traitor on the show but no one thinks of accussing the Banking Clan senator who openly talks about selling arms to the Seperatists. Just how the hell does that work?

The corruption in the Republic is so endemic that self-interested hypocrisy is normal and anyone who doesn't participate in this game is a sucker. So why don't all the remaining intelligent, honest, moral people see this and why aren't they either demanding that the situation be changed, or realize that the Separatists were right to scram, and follow suit?

 

[DarthPipes]

It just seems the Jedi are fighting and refusing to ask any questions.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

So much for their "but we're peacekeepers!" hooey. The way they behave, you'd think the opposite - they're a bunch of mercenaries who'll take any excuse to get out there, lightsabers swingin'.

Reminds me of Starfleet, "explorers" whose exploration has this mystifying tendency to get them into wars with neighbors who don't want to be "explored." Makes you wonder what their real goals are, underneath the self-justifying rhetoric?

 

[DarthPipes]

Very true.

I always had a problem with Picard's "Starfleet is not a military organization". What's worse is he said this as Starfleet is attempting to figure out a defense against a future Borg attack. If Starfleet isn't a military organization (and as you pointed out, they get into a ton of battles) then who defends the Federation?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Star Trek universe should swap with Star Wars.

The Federation needs the Jedi: soldiers who will unquestioningly fight the various threats at their borders but not go boldly looking for more trouble. Having no personal lives, they won't need to have shore leave or time to visit their families back home. I guess Quark wouldn't be too happy about the change, but everyone else will be. Since the Federation has no economic system, there can be no corruption, which is perfect for the Jedi since corruption isn't something you can fight with a lightsaber.

The Republic needs people with Picard's mindset, who at least try to understand the societies and personalities they are dealing with before commencing hostilities and/or delivering a smug lecture on the superiority of their own way of life. Since the Republic spans an entire galaxy, there's nothing for Starfleet to explore, and they can devote themselves entirely to telling everyone how superior the Republic is, which will help boost its morale and be less prone to factionalism and civil war.