Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[DWF]

For a six-movie series, the background is murky. Here's an advanced galactic culture, running with all the political sophistication of 10th century Japan. Where's law enforcement? Who are these knights? How does the political system work? How do the planets work together? The audience hasn't got a clue, nor has Lucas. We, like the creator, are supposed to stare at the world with the benumbed, clueless incuriosity of Japanese peasants living under the Samurai. Don't ask questions: don't attempt to understand... What was the Force? What was the Empire? What was the conflict really about?
- Carl Marsh, on the Star Wars series

 

[Basill]

"The Citadel- Part 3." Pretty darn good episode. Great action scenes, and even a good bit of character development. The Tarkin/Skywalker waltz was a treat to see. Too bad Even Piell had to perish, but at least we know how it went down now. The second I saw his wrapped body, I knew they would lift it with the force and float it softly down to the lava river.

Was I the only one that thought Piell's little ponytail clip looked like Moe from the "The Three Stooges?"

 

[Christopher]

My favorite bit was that when they lowered the shrouded body into the molten sulfur river, it appeared that it actually caught fire before touching the sulfur. For once, somebody remembered convection. Although it was conveniently forgotten again when the escapees were crossing the sulfur on cables and their clothes and hair didn't catch fire.

 

[Set Harth]

Too bad Even Piell had to perish, but at least we know how it went down now.

We already knew how it went down, it was in Jedi Twilight. That's out the window now. In terms of continuity, the good thing about this episode is that it actually set up the secret hyperspace routes which appeared in Labyrinth of Evil. So at least that aspect of LOE's pre-ROTS timeframe is being preserved by TCW, it seems.

 

[DarthPipes]

I thought the funeral scene for Even Piell was very well-done. It actually managed to conjure up emotion and was visually excellent.

Epic episode. The action was tremendous, both in space and on the ground. It really felt like Star Wars. They held nothing back when it came to death and violence. The Republic once again one this battle but paid a price for it.

Loved the Anakin/Tarkin stuff and the bits with Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka discussing the role of the Jedi in this war were just as good. My one complaint...Anakin telling Ahsoka that Tarkin is a good captain. Just what the hell is he basing that on? In the first part of this story arc, he's busting Tarkin out of jail because Tarkin and his command managed to get themselves captured. Tarkin then spends the time during the escape to complain and run. That's apparently what makes him a good captain in Anakin's mind...that and the fact that he twice agrees with Anakin.

Someone on another message board had a great line in response to Ahsoka (and a clone) saving Tarkin's life. Alderaan thanks you!

I didn't care about Piell's death in the EU being contradicted. He died an extremely unmemorable death in the opening chapters of a good but unmemorable EU book. This death was far better, at the very least for the funeral scene.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I thought the funeral scene for Even Piell was very well-done. It actually managed to conjure up emotion and was visually excellent.

Yep - it's nice when they remember that this Jedi/Force stuff is supposed to feel magical, mystical and epic.

This arc was pretty much in keeping with the series overall - lots of action, which in and of itself would be trivial except for the incremental bits of character and plot development they keep doling out.

We've had foreshadowing why Anakin is disgruntled with the Jedi way (allowing pacifist planets to shirk their share of the burden; being too coy about methods for extracting vital information from prisoners). Now we have him being more vocal about it, plus the addition of Tarkin to represent the point of view of the professional military officer corps that aligns with Anakin's opinions and makes it more likely that his loyalties will diverge.

I can't say that Tarkin is wrong. It doesn't look to me that the Jedi have any particular expertise in running a war. They respond to threats here and there but what is the overall strategy for victory? They make effective leaders, but only because they can depend on the unquestioning loyalty of their fellow Jedi, and clones who are programmed to obey. What if they were in command of recruits from various worlds, who had various agendas that might not align with the Republic's? How effective would the Jedi be as leaders then?

And how good are the Jedi at being diplomats, either? Setting aside the problem that they're still completely clueless about what is really going on (so that neither the Jedi nor Tarkin are in the position to come up with the correct answer), the Separatists really did have legitimate grievances against the Republic, which really is corrupt.

As the people in charge of non-violent ways of holding the Republic together, shouldn't the Jedi have seen this war coming a million parsecs away, and done something to address the core issues that would eventually cause it? As far as the Jedi know, the war happened because they fell down on the job, so why should they be entrusted with another job that they have no particular expertise in?

The Jedi should realize that they're heading for stalemate and switch back to their old job, on the principle of "better late than never." The Separatist leaders that they might have parlayed with are now dead (why was it only Padme who saw that opportunity?) but since their grievances were legitimate, the grievances aren't going to die with any particular set of leaders.

The problem is not that the Jedi are losing a war. The problem (that they know if) is that their Republic isn't worth holding together. They should declare a truce, put down the lightsabers, put the officer corps in charge of defense, and work on reforming the Republic so that the Separatist worlds will be willing to rejoin them at some later date, when the Republic is no longer a corrupt, degenerate mess. And if the Republic can't be salvaged, then maybe it's time for the Jedi to let it go.

This wouldn't work, but only because the real purpose of the Separatist cause is to destroy the Jedi. But when even giving the Seppys what they say they want doesn't stop the war, then the Jedi will be in a position to see that there was always something else behind it, and and that point, process of elimination should point them in the right direction at long last. So one way or the other, they will end up the better for it. They're doing nothing but spinning their wheels now.

I also wonder how is it that the Republic has a professional officer corps (who behave as though they have years of personal experience, and most likely a longer organizational history than just their lifetimes) but no system for recruiting soldiers other than the recently discovered clones?

 

[DarthPipes]

They make effective leaders, but only because they can depend on the unquestioning loyalty of their fellow Jedi, and clones who are programmed to obey. What if they were in command of recruits from various worlds, who had various agendas that might not align with the Republic's? How effective would the Jedi be as leaders then?

That is a good point and I'd love to see that issue explored in greater detail. The Jedi having to command a planet's native army.

According to the official site summary, Tarkin was supposed to kill the warden in cold blood, with the Jedi questioning his honor.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

We need the other shoe dropping on all this foreshadowing (probably won't happen till next season): The Jedi are on the verge of losing some key battle because they won't do something immoral (strongarm the local pacifists, torture prisoners for vital information, something like that.)

Ideally, this should be a make or break moment in the war for maximum dramatic impact. Anakin flips out and takes matters into his own hands to stave off disaster. He'd get in big trouble for this with the Jedi except that a) it worked and b) the Chancellor and the military caste support him.

So that cements Anakin's alliance with Palps, all without Palps needing to lift a finger. He doesn't look the least bit suspicious, just a beleaguered civilian leader who is grateful for one Jedi who has an ounce of sense! Tarkin and the other military leaders don't need to suspect Palps is a Sith; and if they knew, I wonder if they'd care?

I'd also like to see Coruscant threatened and maybe take some destruction in the war. As the planet that represents the Republic as a whole, it needs to get its hair mussed, or the dramatic oomph to the war just won't be there. I know I'm supposed to be thinking the Republic is fighting for its life, but it doesn't feel that way.

With this episode, it looks like TCW is replaying the same theme that DS9 did - how far is too far when defending liberal democracy against the forces of totalitarianism?

DS9's (perhaps inadvertent) answer was, "further than you might like to think." Starfleet won the Dominion War through a combination of war crimes (assassination, attempted genocide) and dumb luck (the Prophets closed the wormhole). Since the Jedi retain their honor and morals and lose their war, TCW confirms DS9's bleak point of view. Star Wars and Star Trek are at long last on the same side!

 

[DarthPipes]

I always found it interesting that Section 31 really played the key role in ending the war because of what they had done years earlier.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

According to the official site summary, Tarkin was supposed to kill the warden in cold blood, with the Jedi questioning his honor.

Would that really have worked? Tarkin was captured and (presumably) tortured for the information. He had every right to kill that creepy jailer, regardless of circumstances. How could it be in "cold blood" after everything he'd been through? I can't see how the writers could expect the audience not to at least partly sympathize with Tarkin, making the Jedi come off as nannyish and unreasonable.

Changing it to Ahsoka killing him works better, and I always approve of the oh-so-holy Jedi being depicted as needing to actually kill flesh and blood people, this being an actual war.

PS, I've been meaning to say this, but the young Tarkin keeps reminding me of Michael Emerson! Too bad this isn't live action so they can get him to play the role.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I can't say that Tarkin is wrong. It doesn't look to me that the Jedi have any particular expertise in running a war. They respond to threats here and there but what is the overall strategy for victory? They make effective leaders, but only because they can depend on the unquestioning loyalty of their fellow Jedi, and clones who are programmed to obey. What if they were in command of recruits from various worlds, who had various agendas that might not align with the Republic's? How effective would the Jedi be as leaders then?

If Ahsoka is our conscience, then since she smells a rat in Tarkin now, so should we. Tarkin is not just a condescending little prick, as someone upthread pointed out. He has been constantly trying to drive wedges in the chain of command at every opportunity. Irrespective of whether Tarkin is right or wrong in his proposed course of action, Tarkin wants to be in charge. Therefore, everything he says has to be filtered through that basic motivation.

The Jedi are also effective leaders because they have superhuman abilities that benefit those around them. Every soldier in their immediate vicinity gets a defensive bonus.

And how good are the Jedi at being diplomats, either? Setting aside the problem that they're still completely clueless about what is really going on (so that neither the Jedi nor Tarkin are in the position to come up with the correct answer), the Separatists really did have legitimate grievances against the Republic, which really is corrupt.

We know that Tarkin is a confidant of Palps. But we don't know how much Tarkin knows, do we?

As the people in charge of non-violent ways of holding the Republic together, shouldn't the Jedi have seen this war coming a million parsecs away, and done something to address the core issues that would eventually cause it? As far as the Jedi know, the war happened because they fell down on the job, so why should they be entrusted with another job that they have no particular expertise in?

You raise a valid point, though I should remind you that ever since Episode I, the Dark Side of the Force has been interfering with the ability of the Jedi to sense what is really happening. Based on how Episode I opens, we might conclude that, either by the time of Episode I or always, the Jedi regarded a certain reasonably small level of conflict as normal. Into this background of minimal conflict creeps the Phantom Menace, shrouded by the Dark Side.

The Jedi should realize that they're heading for stalemate and switch back to their old job, on the principle of "better late than never." The Separatist leaders that they might have parlayed with are now dead (why was it only Padme who saw that opportunity?) but since their grievances were legitimate, the grievances aren't going to die with any particular set of leaders.

I believe it is up to the Senate to declare war and to dictate when and how to negotiate for peace. The Jedi have to follow orders and prosecute the war as charged by the Senate, as far as I understand it. (Padme is a Senator, by the way.) The best the Jedi could do is try to persuade the Senate or Palps to sue for peace. But we know that is not Palps's plan so he'd never go for it, and some circumstance would inconveniently materialize to persuade enough Senators to keep fighting, as we have seen.

The problem is not that the Jedi are losing a war. The problem (that they know if) is that their Republic isn't worth holding together. They should declare a truce, put down the lightsabers, put the officer corps in charge of defense, and work on reforming the Republic so that the Separatist worlds will be willing to rejoin them at some later date, when the Republic is no longer a corrupt, degenerate mess. And if the Republic can't be salvaged, then maybe it's time for the Jedi to let it go.

Well again, since they are ultimately not in charge, the most the Jedi could do would be to leave the Republic, and then the options are not promising: join the Separatists, start a new Republic, or live in exile. The first two options are impractical.

I also wonder how is it that the Republic has a professional officer corps (who behave as though they have years of personal experience, and most likely a longer organizational history than just their lifetimes) but no system for recruiting soldiers other than the recently discovered clones?

Good question, but I suspect that, as I said above, a reasonably small level of conflict was normal. What the Navy lacked was largeness. Note that the clones are fleshing out the officer corps, undoubtedly because the navy had to rapidly expand to absorb the clone troops.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

though I should remind you that ever since Episode I, the Dark Side of the Force has been interfering with the ability of the Jedi to sense what is really happening.

They shouldn't need the Force - it would be simple logic, that non-Force-users would be able to use. If the Separatists aren't really after freedom for their worlds from the Republic, then they are hiding their real goal. What else could they possibly be after? Gee isn't a coincidence that the Dark Side has been so active lately? Put two and two together!

The Jedi are also effective leaders because they have superhuman abilities that benefit those around them. Every soldier in their immediate vicinity gets a defensive bonus.

Jedi abilities would be better used if they were Special Forces types of soldiers, not "generals," who aren't even supposed to be going into direct combat but rather directing war strategy. It would make more sense for the military officer caste to be the generals and the Jedi a flexible organization that gets things done on the ground - whether combat, spying, secret backdoor negotiations or whatever is required.

They also have a special quality of moral credibility (I think?) which means that whatever side they are fighting on is more trusted by various worlds of the Republic, but that's just another reason why they should be combining diplomacy and combat in what they do, rather than relegated to simply military matters. This would also make for a wider variety of story types.

I believe it is up to the Senate to declare war and to dictate when and how to negotiate for peace. The Jedi have to follow orders and prosecute the war as charged by the Senate, as far as I understand it.

There's a point at which good soldiers need to start to question the orders of their superiors.

The best the Jedi could do is try to persuade the Senate or Palps to sue for peace. But we know that is not Palps's plan so he'd never go for it, and some circumstance would inconveniently materialize to persuade enough Senators to keep fighting, as we have seen.

At some point, all these "coincidences" that Palps keeps manufacturing should start to be suspicious. And again, you don't need the Force to see suspicious coincidences right under your nose. As high-level diplomats and negotiators, the Jedi should be the savviest people in the Republic. Maybe they've depended so heavily on using the Force to direct them that they've lost good old fashioned horse sense or never had it to begin with?

This is where Padme could come in - as a non-Force-user, she has no choice but to develop her horse sense. Oddly, it looks like she and Anakin might be converging on the same idea: the Jedi are frakking up the war. I'd like to see the series get back to Padme's story, since she should know be massively suspicious about the convenient deaths of the Separatist leaders.

the options are not promising: join the Separatists, start a new Republic, or live in exile. The first two options are impractical.

They don't know that the first option is impractical - they have no way of knowing they're the real target of the Seppy movement (because if they knew that, then they'd see the whole truth) - and they could at least get started on the second option, which might be the same thing as the first - start their own Separatist movement and lure the survivors over (telling the corrupt and nasty Trade Federation to stay away).

If they fail, they may end up with the third option by default, but it's better than what they're doing now, namely accomplishing nothing. The Jedi remind me of that adage that "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of madness."

It would send a powerful message to the Republic if the Jedi just gave up on it. That alone would be worthwhile, assuming the Republic deserves it. The Jedi need to either try to salvage the Republic or abandon it, but fighting the war isn't going to do either.

The one big advantage that the Jedi have over all the other power players - economic, political and military - is their moral stature. They should be more careful how they use that stature, to back allies that truly deserve them. And if no allies in any given fight deserve them, then they can make an important point by staying neutral.

There just seems to be no thought behind what the Jedi are doing, like they're backing the Republic out of inertia. They need some fresh, original thinking. If Anakin realizes he's a good candidate to provide that thinking, then he'd be justified in butting heads with the Jedi Council.

 

[Professor Zoom]

You know, I have to say, I think I'm getting a little bored. Three episodes for Mortis, three episodes for this great escape.... It feels like they coulda done it in two and two.

And I'm waiting for the "secrets" to be revealed. Have the secrets been revealed all along? It doesn't feel like it, because nothing feels surprising--like when a secret is revealed.

I don't know. I'll finish the season out, as there is only one more, but.... it's hard to care anymore.

 

[Christopher]

I always found it interesting that Section 31 really played the key role in ending the war because of what they had done years earlier.

No, actually Odo played the key role in ending the war by offering the Founders the cure for Section 31's virus, and by offering to rejoin them if they'd leave the Federation alone. It was an act of compassion, a reaffirmation of the Federation's ideals, that ended the war, despite Section 31's belief that genocide was necessary.

 

[Set Harth]

I thought the funeral scene for Even Piell was very well-done. It actually managed to conjure up emotion and was visually excellent.

Yep - it's nice when they remember that this Jedi/Force stuff is supposed to feel magical, mystical and epic.

Yeah, that funeral scene was just as mystical as the one in Alien 3.

I can't see how the writers could expect the audience not to at least partly sympathize with Tarkin, making the Jedi come off as nannyish and unreasonable.

The Jedi were going to take away everyone's guns, pull the plug on Grandma, and institute Sharia law. They needed to be stopped.

 

[Dac]

Ahsoka killing the Christopher Walken-alike Jailer was a perfect mirror of Anakin killing the bad senator guy in the Duchess Satine ep from Season 2. At least the first time it was a nice foreshadowing of Anakin's darker side, but having Ahsoka do it really gave the scene an edge to it it would have lacked if anyone else had done it.

It's a shame the season finale's of the previous seasons don't really give me much hope for a big grand cliffhanger finale like other shows would, but after the Mortis arc Ahsoka and Anakin's relationship is seemingly coming to a point where something has got to give.

Also, I hope we see more Tarkin, and i'd like to see him and Yularen butt heads a bit. Something tells me those two won't quite be on the same page as one another. Yularen has a certain distrust of the Jedi, but it seems to me he thinks they are too reckless, whereas Tarkin of course doesn't think they're reckless enough.

 

[DarthPipes]

I always found it interesting that Section 31 really played the key role in ending the war because of what they had done years earlier.

No, actually Odo played the key role in ending the war by offering the Founders the cure for Section 31's virus, and by offering to rejoin them if they'd leave the Federation alone. It was an act of compassion, a reaffirmation of the Federation's ideals, that ended the war, despite Section 31's belief that genocide was necessary.

Yeah but it was Section 31's poisoning of the Founders that set up the chain of events that led to the end of the war.

I always thought it was kind of ironic that Khan's actions in Star Trek II unintentionally set up the chain of events that led to Earth being saved in Star Trek IV. Kirk's marooning of Khan after Space Seed ended up planting the seed for Earth's eventual salvation in The Voyage Home. Strange how things work out.

Would that really have worked? Tarkin was captured and (presumably) tortured for the information. He had every right to kill that creepy jailer, regardless of circumstances. How could it be in "cold blood" after everything he'd been through? I can't see how the writers could expect the audience not to at least partly sympathize with Tarkin, making the Jedi come off as nannyish and unreasonable.

I think the jailer, Sobek, got what he deserved myself. But the problem would have been that Tarkin woud have basically executed an unarmed man. That's where the Jedi had the problem.

The Republic isn't worth saving, especially since we've learn that the guilds that have caused so much corruption (Trade Federation, Banking Clan) are inexplicably STILL a part of the government during the war. If the Jedi want to end corruption, they have to flush out the Guilds.

In the novelization and I believe in the original script, we learn that the Jedi have gone from being under the jurisidiction of the Senate to that of the Supreme Chancellor. That's why Palpatine appoints Anakin to the Jedi Council. In ROTS, we see the Jedi oppose all the powers that Palpatine has taken on and were resolved to remove him from power.

 

[Whofan]

Dac, Yularen is actually part of the Imperial council seen in STAR WARS alongside Tarkin. He doesn't have any lines in the film but he's the mustachied guy in the white uniform (He's also been retconned as a Grand Admiral by that time, because Filoni states he's wearing a white uniform similar to Thrawn)

 

[Dac]

Dac, Yularen is actually part of the Imperial council seen in STAR WARS alongside Tarkin. He doesn't have any lines in the film but he's the mustachied guy in the white uniform (He's also been retconned as a Grand Admiral by that time, because Filoni states he's wearing a white uniform similar to Thrawn)

I know. But that's a long time after the Clone Wars, plenty of room to have something brewing between them two.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah but it was Section 31's poisoning of the Founders that set up the chain of events that led to the end of the war.

Yeah, and it was Jabba the Hutt's contract on Han Solo's head that set up the chain of events that led to Han and Leia falling in love, but that doesn't make Jabba a matchmaker.