Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[fett51]

It doesn't necessarily suggest an intelligence at work. It suggests that the specific event was merely one facet of a larger, multi-part process and you have to consider the entire context, the long run rather than just the immediate moment.

How is an unthinking force going to come up with a multi-faceted plan that advances in increments?

As I've already said, Palpatine wasn't the single, exclusive factor in play here. He couldn't have had as great an effect as he had if the state of the broader society hadn't been primed to respond to his pressure, to amplify it rather than resisting it. Killing Palpatine while the frayed, decaying structure of the Republic and the Jedi Council were still in place would not have fixed the underlying problems. It would've merely delayed the inevitable collapse until the next corrupt and power-mad politician exploited the failings of the system to serve his or her own ambition.

Palpatine is not the average ambitious politican. He is a Sith lord, a more powerful force user than Yoda, and heir to a 1,000 year Sith legacy of plotting to overthrow the Jedi and the Republic from the shadows. It is made clear to us in TPM that he was already controlling both the Senate and powerful corporations, and and it is certainly perfectly clear he orchestrated the entire war from start to finish as a means to further corrupt the Republic. Conversely, there is no evidence I know of to say that he and his Sith predecessors didn't maneuver the Republic into the situation we find it in, they certainly had enough time. This whole thing being a Sith plot, removing the Sith would be like turning off the bunsin burner. Things certainly would not have gotten better overnight, but everything Palpatine was doing would have to fall apart because there were no other Sith to keep it going. The Jedi, for their part, would have had some very hard questions to ask themselves about how they failed so badly the fate of the Republic and the entire Order had rested solely on Anakin's choice. In either case, the Republic, the Jedi and the force would look very, very different in 20 years time with no need for 20 years of gross imbalance or the risks inherent in a blank slate (the post-Jedi period could've gone Weimar Republic or French Revolution).

For the really blatant mistakes, ROTS needs to be overwritten, not explained away. What you described can't be explained away. (Or if you can think of how, please describe it, but it's beyond my powers of imagination.)

The only ideas I've come up with involve finding a way to make Anakin deliberately not think about "what the people I care about would want" (specifically if that's how he loses Ahsoka) giving him a real reason to suspect the Jedi are evil, and finding some reason why going to the dark side isn't knowingly forsaking his responsibilities as chosen one (which after the last few episodes seems unlikely). The idea I have right now is that he thinks he has to take over everything in order to ensure balance. While that fits the broad strokes of what he was planning in RotS unfortunately I haven't come up with a way to make it fit the actual film and there's the same "didn't kill Palpatine for 20 years" problem.

 

[DWF]

and is also extremely gullible, so that he believes Palps' bullshit.

Since everything Palpatine said to Anakin was true, it doesn't make him gullible.

Not everything Palpatine lied about being able to raise the dead after Anakin turned to thedark side he said that together they unlock the secret of raising the dead with use of the Force.

 

[Christopher]

How is an unthinking force going to come up with a multi-faceted plan that advances in increments?

You're begging the question -- defining the premise in a way that assumes your interpretation is correct and thereby excluding any other view. "Come up with a plan" is the wrong way of thinking about it. I've been giving you all these examples of the complexity of historical processes, and all you're giving back to me is the same simplistic preconceptions. You're not even trying to broaden your assumptions here. You're trapped into this narrow idea that destiny is about a conscious mind micromanaging events, like God controlling the fall of every sparrow. And as long as you're stuck there, unwilling or unable to consider a subtler, less mechanistic idea of destiny, I have no hope of getting my point across to you.

Palpatine is not the average ambitious politican. He is a Sith lord, a more powerful force user than Yoda, and heir to a 1,000 year Sith legacy of plotting to overthrow the Jedi and the Republic from the shadows.

Yes, and Hitler wasn't the average racist nutjob. He had the drive, the charisma, and the political savvy to rise to power. But if the broader context of the society he inhabited had not been primed to respond to what he represented, the outcome would've been different. No one person, no matter how powerful or brilliant, can force history onto a path totally contrary to its pre-existing momentum. What great leaders do is to harness the forces already in play and focus and amplify them.

Conversely, there is no evidence I know of to say that he and his Sith predecessors didn't maneuver the Republic into the situation we find it in, they certainly had enough time. This whole thing being a Sith plot, removing the Sith would be like turning off the bunsin burner. Things certainly would not have gotten better overnight, but everything Palpatine was doing would have to fall apart because there were no other Sith to keep it going.

I doubt it's that simple. At the point that Palpatine's true nature became clear -- i.e. the earliest point at which Anakin could've been realistically expected to take action to stop him -- he'd already caused so much damage that I doubt the Republic could've recovered. Without Palpatine taking action to decisively wipe out both sides' leadership, the Clone Wars would've just gone on for a lot longer, as the chaos Palpatine engineered to serve his purpose was set free to rage on without a purpose. The long-term effects would've been even worse. At least Palpatine brought the chaos under control and restored order, even if it was an oppressive, tyrannical order. And that led to the downfall of his empire after a mere quarter-century, a very short lifespan for a tyrannical empire. And his oppressive rule created something for an opposition to rally against, focusing their energy and their ethics. It became a struggle against evil rather than simply one of political factions. And so that gave the opposition forces an incentive to strive for justice and morality once they'd won rather than simply striving for their own advantage. (Consider that before WWII, anti-Semitism was open and rampant in the United States and elsewhere, but once Hitler demonstrated how horrible it truly was, it fell out of favor and the free world strove to better itself.)

The Jedi, for their part, would have had some very hard questions to ask themselves about how they failed so badly the fate of the Republic and the entire Order had rested solely on Anakin's choice. In either case, the Republic, the Jedi and the force would look very, very different in 20 years time with no need for 20 years of gross imbalance or the risks inherent in a blank slate (the post-Jedi period could've gone Weimar Republic or French Revolution).

Maybe. If destiny worked in the micromanaging, hand-of-God way you're assuming, then it could engineer that kind of outcome. But that's circular reasoning, begging the question. If destiny is more of an organic, non-personified process, the flow of the currents of reality rather than the blueprints of a cosmic engineer, then there's no reason to assume it would automatically "calculate" the simplest or most direct route to a particular outcome.

The idea I have right now is that he thinks he has to take over everything in order to ensure balance. While that fits the broad strokes of what he was planning in RotS unfortunately I haven't come up with a way to make it fit the actual film and there's the same "didn't kill Palpatine for 20 years" problem.

Why assume it would be easy to kill Palpatine? Dude's a Sith Lord, for crying out loud. And an old enough Sith Lord that he's probably managed to survive many challenges by failed apprentices. Maybe Vader knew he had to bide his time until he was strong enough -- or until Palpatine let his guard down.

At least, to begin with. Plans change. You start out on a certain path seeing it as a temporary stage or a means to an end, but then you get into the day-to-day grind of things and you lose sight of the bigger picture.

Besides, like I said before, the dark side is like an addiction. It changes you, takes you over until it supplants everything else that used to matter for you. Anakin initially turned to the dark side because he wanted to save his wife and end the war, but once the addiction was fully in place, the dark side became an end in itself and he lost himself in it.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The only thing of Campbell's I've read was "The Hero's Journey" and that was like 10 years ago, not long after TPM came out. I don't have a problem with throwing out the Republic or reforming the Jedi, I have a problem with why and how he did it. The self delusion I mentioned was referencing how in RotS he deludes himself into thinking the Jedi are bad and trying to take over the Republic etc, not Padme. What you said here doesn't change my analysis - he put himself and his emotions before everything else, and was rather stupid about it. He evidently did not think "If I obliterate the Republic, the Jedi, the balance of the force, and mass-murder kiddies on the way, everyone might hate me, including Padme." As I said, I was hoping for something that might give his choice in RotS an element of nobility, but he's still stuck being selfish.

But is there really any nobility in turning to the Dark Side to begin with? I suppose that all depends on your particular definition of "nobility". But ROTS was pretty clear that "The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves." Anakin choosing the Sith, by definition means that he was thinking inwardly, about himself. Anakin's decisions were always meant to focus on himself. Had he really thought of the larger picture, of sacrificing those around him for the greater good, he never would have fallen ... but he cannot let go of those he is afraid to lose (Padme, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, and even still, his mother) and that's his tragic flaw. TCW isn't going to rewrite that aspect of his character. All it can do is to give us a greater, larger, more comprehensive context for why he is selfish to begin with. And the Mortis arc does just that. The "nobility" in his actions is that he'd do anything to save those he cares about -- he'd use the ends to justify the means (act like a Sith, in other words). Fundamentally, though, he's still acting selfishly. But now we have a scenario, which is much more plausible than what we see in ROTS, which clearly illustrates just how and why he chooses selfishly.

If you're looking for a complete overhaul of the entire Saga, you might need to moderate your expectations a bit. Otherwise, given where the story ultimately *has* to go, I'd say TCW is doing a magnificent job of portraying character and mythic elements with a great deal of craft and depth -- the kind of craft and depth, incidentally, that was missing from the films.

 

[Set Harth]

Palpatine lied about being able to raise the dead after Anakin turned to thedark side he said that together they unlock the secret of raising the dead with use of the Force.

I wouldn't necessarily call it raising the dead, but we could call it "cheating death". Which is a power they still haven't achieved by the end of ROTS, as far as I know. Palpatine never said that he had the ability. His story is consistent with the situation in the EU: that the Banite Sith had saved beings from dying, but had not rediscovered the secret of cheating death. Plagueis could save others from dying, but not himself. The "lie" in that case is the implication that it was Plagueis rather than some more ancient Sith lord who had the power which he is seeking to recover.

If you're looking for a complete overhaul of the entire Saga, you might need to moderate your expectations a bit.

This is true.

 

[ALF]

The characters of the "son", "daughter" and "father" force figures weren't very inspired or inspiring. Force-gods or ghosts or whatever they were.... these kinds of characters should be exciting.

The force planet itself was interesting. I would have been plenty satisfied with a story that dealt with the alien world itself rather than some cookie cutter cutout throwaway characters.

By far, the son was the worst. The same villain we've seen since stories were created. About as exciting as a bumpy forehead alien from Voyager. I would have loved to have seen a different take on villainy with this character... maybe even the monotone delivery that Dr. Manhattan brought to the Force-son character might have made him more interesting... the insanity of the Joker, smarmy, condescending, anything.

I'm just not sure what we, as the Star Wars fan audience is supposed to take away from this 3 parter. I had an eerie feeling... like maybe the writers from Heroes found a new home at Skywalker Ranch.

Having said all that, I still love the series and generally these episodes are quality.

PS. What was with Obi-Wan berating Ahsoka continuously in this episode?

 

[fett51]

You're not even trying to broaden your assumptions here. You're trapped into this narrow idea that destiny is about a conscious mind micromanaging events, like God controlling the fall of every sparrow. And as long as you're stuck there, unwilling or unable to consider a subtler, less mechanistic idea of destiny, I have no hope of getting my point across to you.

What? I told you I consider the force to be an unconscious, fundamental force of the GFFA. Let's try another metaphor: what you are proposing is comparable to saying that gravity will suddenly start repelling rather than pulling if it means it can suck you in more later. If the Force is a force, it should constantly be pushing towards balance. No increments, no facets, just constant, predictable, unyielding pressure. And like gravity, it is possible to counter it, temporarily, by expending energy, as the Sith have done in pushing the force so far to the dark side. In the end however the force, like gravity, always wins.

Yes, and Hitler wasn't the average racist nutjob. He had the drive, the charisma, and the political savvy to rise to power. But if the broader context of the society he inhabited had not been primed to respond to what he represented, the outcome would've been different. No one person, no matter how powerful or brilliant, can force history onto a path totally contrary to its pre-existing momentum. What great leaders do is to harness the forces already in play and focus and amplify them.

Let me be as direct as possible: Hitler did not have the ability to mind-trick anyone who disagreed with him, he could not foresee events, he could not sense threats, he could not sense when he was being lied to, he could not extract information from anyone he pleased, and he was not the beneficiary of a thousand years of plots and schemes aimed at corrupting the Weimar Republic. There is no historical precedent for the Sith.

Without Palpatine taking action to decisively wipe out both sides' leadership, the Clone Wars would've just gone on for a lot longer, as the chaos Palpatine engineered to serve his purpose was set free to rage on without a purpose.

The war was nearly over at that moment regardless, Grievous and Dooku were dead, and the rest of the battles were going very well for the Republic, per what Obi-wan said to Anakin about the briefing he had missed. I also find it very hard to imagine someone like Nute Gunray would want to fight to the bitter end - they would have surrendered anyway.

Why assume it would be easy to kill Palpatine? Dude's a Sith Lord, for crying out loud. And an old enough Sith Lord that he's probably managed to survive many challenges by failed apprentices. Maybe Vader knew he had to bide his time until he was strong enough -- or until Palpatine let his guard down.

Because the events on Mortis just told him he was strong enough to balance the Force, and assuming Anakin not to be a total dunce, he'd have realized part of his destiny was to deal with Palpatine.

he cannot let go of those he is afraid to lose (Padme, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, and even still, his mother) and that's his tragic flaw

And my issue with that is that he did not see that turning to the dark side would cost him everyone he cared about. He seemed blindsided by Padme's refusal to go along with him, something I find inexplicable, particularly after Obi-wan stopped him doing something stupid with a "what would Padme do?" tongue-lashing in AotC. One of the things I would like TCW to do is plug that plot hole.

The "nobility" in his actions is that he'd do anything to save those he cares about -- he'd use the ends to justify the means (act like a Sith, in other words). Fundamentally, though, he's still acting selfishly.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Having that attitude about what one wants betrays one's selfishness regardless of what the goal is. I'd like something from this show that puts his attitude towards being the chosen one in that same category.

 

[Christopher]

Let's try another metaphor: what you are proposing is comparable to saying that gravity will suddenly start repelling rather than pulling if it means it can suck you in more later. If the Force is a force, it should constantly be pushing towards balance.

That's too simplistic. Like I keep telling you, history (or destiny, in the fictional model I'm exploring here) isn't monocausal. You can't reduce it to a single factor doing a single thing. Like the weather analogy I mentioned earlier. There's no one force causing the weather, there's an interaction of many different forces and factors. Even if the confluence of forces is leading toward, say, a new ice age, there will still be moments of unseasonable heat along the way as the forces collide and interact and tend toward the long-term outcome. Or to go back to the river analogy, portions of the water in the river can form eddies and flow briefly back upstream before ultimately following the main current downstream.

I mean, you seem to be assuming that the Force is itself the specific and singular cause behind destiny and prophecy. That's another of those unexamined assumptions that begs the question. How do we know destiny and the Force are the same thing? What basis is there for that assumption? Destiny may be the sum total of the interaction of all the forces in the universe, including "the" Force. And the interaction of multiple forces is bound to be complex.

Let me be as direct as possible: Hitler did not have the ability to mind-trick anyone who disagreed with him, he could not foresee events, he could not sense threats, he could not sense when he was being lied to, he could not extract information from anyone he pleased, and he was not the beneficiary of a thousand years of plots and schemes aimed at corrupting the Weimar Republic. There is no historical precedent for the Sith.

It's an analogy. Analogies are not meant to be exact. Look, you asked how the prophecy could work and I offered a possible interpretation by which it might make sense. But you don't seem to be genuinely interested in considering answers to your question; you just want to gripe about how "nonsensical" it all is. So since I don't really have any dog in this fight but am just considering an intellectually interesting hypothesis, maybe I shouldn't waste my time debating it anymore.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The "nobility" in his actions is that he'd do anything to save those he cares about -- he'd use the ends to justify the means (act like a Sith, in other words). Fundamentally, though, he's still acting selfishly.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Having that attitude about what one wants betrays one's selfishness regardless of what the goal is. I'd like something from this show that puts his attitude towards being the chosen one in that same category.

Yeah, but that desire kinda misses the entire point of a guy turning to evil to begin with. Look, if Anakin were truly rational and selfless, he wouldn't turn to the Dark Side. Heck, if he truly cared for his friends in the same selfless way that Luke cared, Anakin never would have turned. Anakin is a flawed character. And his flaw is selfishness.

Like it or not, that's the story of Star Wars: A selfless boy who, through a combination of events, becomes selfish and cannot turn from his demons until his son offers him a chance for some measure of redemption. You can complain about that point all you want, but it won't do you any good. The fact remains, Anakin becomes a villain and only at the very end (the last possible moment for him to do so) do his actions show any hint of self-sacrifice. At least these episode provide a context for his selfishness. Heck, they even frame his actions within a desire to do good for others. But he screws it up because he's not willing to make the difficult choices (those that require self-sacrifice) for the greater good.

Sounds like you just want Anakin to be a noble character when the whole point of the Saga is that he isn't -- or at least almost never acts that way. Sure, during TCW he's heroic and even (at times) charismatic. But he's not "noble." If you want a noble Anakin, watch TPM or the last few scenes of ROTJ.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

and is also extremely gullible, so that he believes Palps' bullshit.

Since everything Palpatine said to Anakin was true, it doesn't make him gullible.

Not everything Palpatine lied about being able to raise the dead after Anakin turned to thedark side he said that together they unlock the secret of raising the dead with use of the Force.

Yeah he lied about the important part, being able to make good on his end of the deal! Makes Anakin look like a prize chump.

But the biggest issue is that TCW has now given Anakin the info he never had in PT - what specifically his job is as the Chosen One, and the dire consequences of joining the Dark Side, that you simply lose control of your own mind (which is new info to all of us - that's never been established on screen before).

On both counts, Anakin should not want to join the Dark Side. It doesn't get the job of balancing the Force done, and it means that he won't be in control of his own actions ever again. Once you join the Dark Side, you are a different person and there's no way back. Who the frak would ever go for that, unless they could predict that they'd want the same thing (power, glory, etc) either way (presumably Palps made that judgment for his own self).

The idea I have right now is that he thinks he has to take over everything in order to ensure balance. While that fits the broad strokes of what he was planning in RotS unfortunately I haven't come up with a way to make it fit the actual film and there's the same "didn't kill Palpatine for 20 years" problem.

I think you're onto something. He wouldn't see the Jedi as evil, but certainly he might see them as misguided, if they think the solution to everything is to wipe out the Sith. Anakin now knows for certain that's not the solution. The solution is for him to control both Light and Dark Sides and be in charge of both Jedi and Sith.

If what he proposes sounds like he wants to merge the Jedi and Sith organizations with him as CEO, then I can see why the Jedi might consider that an ahem unacceptably radical move. Even Obi-Wan, who saw everything Anakin did on Mortis, might balk. So what choice does Anakin have but to go ahead on his own, if nobody will listen to him?

The one unknown element is how attempting to do that causes Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. He wouldn't join it willingly, but I can envision some sequence of events during which he tries to control the Dark Side, somehow slips up and ends up being controlled by it. It would need to be dramatized convincingly and hopefully as excitingly as the yin-yang arena scene. It really should be Anakin vs. Palps - not just a conversation but an actual fight. Who ends up being who's puppet? Anakin should be victorious since objectively, he's much more powerful than any Sith, but if Palps were written cleverly, it could be plausible that he'd pull off an upset. He's a devious little bastard.

Anyway we now know why Vader didn't overthrow Palps for 20 years - the Dark Side exerts total mind control. Once Anakin fell into that trap, he was helpless and essentially not even there anymore.

Look, if Anakin were truly rational and selfless, he wouldn't turn to the Dark Side.

But he is selfless and he's basically an intelligent, grounded person (again, I'm talking TCW Anakin - the other guy isn't worth bothering about and he's been overwritten). He has his fears and hang-ups, but not to such an extent that he is helpless to control himself. So what the holy heck are the writers going to be able to come up with, that will make TCW Anakin ignore the terrible consequences of joining the Dark Side and somehow do it anyway? I don't think it's plausible anymore that he'd "join" it. Instead, it must have been an accident caused by his attempt to wield power that was simply beyond his skills.

A selfless boy who, through a combination of events, becomes selfish and cannot turn from his demons until his son offers him a chance for some measure of redemption.

That used to be the story. I think they've got a different one cooking now: a good and decent hero who was given the powers (and responsibilities) of a god, who simply couldn't handle those powers and through no fault of his own, was cast into villainy, until he was redeemed by the tiny inkling of goodness that still remained, his love for his son.

This new story is much more in the mold of myth, and far less psychologically based. In that way, it feels more like Star Wars to me. Also, it clears up a longstanding problem, that Anakin doesn't deserve redemption after slaughtering kiddies and blowing up planets. But if that wasn't really "him" doing that, because the Dark Side exerts total mind control, then he's off the hook and redemption is a suitable ending.

they even frame his actions within a desire to do good for others. But he screws it up because he's not willing to make the difficult choices (those that require self-sacrifice) for the greater good.

If that's where the story is going, I'd be interested in seeing it, but it remains to be actually depicted that way. As it stands, joining the Dark Side is not "selfish," it's just idiotic. He's not going to be able to accomplish anything he wants to by doing that, because it's equivalent to suicide. Anakin will cease to exist because his mind will no longer be his own.

I'm just not sure what we, as the Star Wars fan audience is supposed to take away from this 3 parter.

1. Definitely establishes that Anakin is the Chosen One, and that he realizes he is. (Before, he thought it was all just hooey.)

2. Establishes that the Chosen One's job is to "balance the Force."

3. Establishes that "balancing the Force" means controlling both Light and Dark Sides (rather than eliminating or suppressing one or the other.)

4. Establishes that Anakin is capable of "balancing the Force" in the microcosm of Mortis, and presumably could do it in the larger cosmos.

5. Establishes that Anakin realizes the imbalance in the Force is causing chaos and suffering, such as the seemingly unending Clone War, and that this bothers him.

6. Establishes the taoist underpinnings of the Star Wars cosmos (Light and Dark Sides are not good and evil; both are required for the cosmos to remain in balance).

7. Establishes what happens to someone who joins the Dark Side - total mind control, like they're a different person. This explains how a nice guy like Anakin would murder children. It wasn't really him at all.

So that's actually a lot of important ground covered - stuff we've been arguing about in these threads, because nobody has nailed them down, and the movies and novels have provided contradictory information. I appreciate this stuff finally being clarified and I think it all sounds reasonable and the basis of good storytelling.

Sounds like you just want Anakin to be a noble character when the whole point of the Saga is that he isn't

It all depends. In the PT, Anakin was ignoble, selfish, weak, whiny, tantrum-prone and overall just plain nausea-inducing. In TCW, he's utterly different. He hasn't been portrayed as selfish. He's noble and heroic, cares genuinely about others, wants what's best for others, has a healthy sense of self-worth but not to the point of egomania, has a sense of humor, etc etc.

The PT and TCW are depicting two different characters who happen to have the same name. So it comes as no surprise that the stories are diverging. The story that works for a selfish, ignoble Anakin (in essence, "stupid brat wreaks havoc") will not work for a selfless, noble Anakin. Not sure what his story will be, but the Icarus myth seems servicable. I prefer the second guy and find the story much more interesting. If they want to jettison big chunks of the PT, fine by me!

They can't plausibly depict TCW Anakin as being selfish after spending so much time portraying the opposite, but they could portray him as less than totally unselfish. If being the Chosen One requires sacrifice that is beyond most mortals - something equivalent to being trapped on Mortis forever and having to give up everything he loves in life - then I can see him being unable to make that kind of selfless sacrifice. That's a tough thing to ask of anyone. Anakin may have godlike powers but he is a mere mortal after all. There's no reason to make him a contemptible person when simply being mortal is "flaw" enough.

I'd say TCW is doing a magnificent job of portraying character and mythic elements with a great deal of craft and depth -- the kind of craft and depth, incidentally, that was missing from the films.

I agree, even if they never resolve the huge logic problems that they've open up for themselves, the execution of TCW is far better than the PT. It has a great feeling of epic sweep, the characters are lively, engaging, charming, sympathetic and funny, and the sense of myth and magic has finally been returned!

 

[Set Harth]

Yeah he lied about the important part, being able to make good on his end of the deal!

No, he never said he had the power. His claims only represent the fact that he is Anakin's gateway to the dark side. He specifically says that they may discover it by working together. His story is consistent in this sense.

Definitely establishes that Anakin is the Chosen One

Which we already knew ( if not clear from TPM/ROTJ, Lucas covered it ).

Establishes that the Chosen One's job is to "balance the Force."

Which we also already knew from TPM.

Establishes that "balancing the Force" means controlling both Light and Dark Sides (rather than eliminating or suppressing one or the other.)

In a sense, balance does involve a kind of suppression, in that the growth of the dark side out of bounds is suppressed.

Anakin now knows for certain that's not the solution.

Wrong. He has seen nothing on Mortis to dissuade him from the notion that the solution is exactly what the PT Jedi say it is, while we know from ROTJ that it is indeed the solution and Obi-Wan's description of the situation is canonically correct. If anything, events in Mortis only reinforce the notion that balance involves defeating the dedicated instrument of the dark side. You're never going to get ROTJ or the PT thrown out to make room for a personal fan-fiction rewrite of "balance of the Force". ROTJ isn't going anywhere, and TCW is well aware of that.

The solution is for him to control both Light and Dark Sides and be in charge of both Jedi and Sith.

Wanting to keep the Sith around to spread evil and corruption would still make him an evil douchebag in the first place, someone who essentially wanted to see Jedi efforts in the galaxy negated. That isn't something any true Jedi would go along with, nor is it consistent with Anakin's pre-turn characterization. In a setting where Jedi are not tantamount to Sith and a dark side turn is more than a formality, it does not work.

 

[fett51]

First off, Filoni's commentary revealed they were going to have Darth Revan and Darth Bane speak to the Son, however although he and Lucas both loved the scene they cut it because they didn't like the implication that Revan and Bane could retain their individualities. Still, they have the models so hopefully they'll be worked into a later ep somehow.

Like I keep telling you, history (or destiny, in the fictional model I'm exploring here) isn't monocausal. You can't reduce it to a single factor doing a single thing.

As I've said a few times now, that's not this story. Your arguments about how history works don't alter what's on screen. Here's how I see that:

We're told the Force has a will, that its will is felt by every living thing, and that it has a natural balance. We also hear variations on "the future is always in motion" and "destiny is clouded" which affirm free will on the part of us lifeforms. We also know Anakin can defy prophecy as he did in not staying on Mortis, and as he would have done again had the father not wiped his memory.

As for Palps, we know the Clone War prompted a change in the balance of the Force, because Yoda said so. It is said and demonstrated several times that Palpatine controls the Senate as early as TPM. We also see that he pulled the CIS together and baited them into starting that war by exploiting their greed/political idealism and lying to them about having an easy victory. As far as I can tell your claim the war, force imbalance and fall of the republic were inevitable is baseless.

All of that is why I reject the notion individuals cannot change the face of the galaxy, particularly so when the individuals are force users.

Sounds like you just want Anakin to be a noble character when the whole point of the Saga is that he isn't -- or at least almost never acts that way. Sure, during TCW he's heroic and even (at times) charismatic. But he's not "noble." If you want a noble Anakin, watch TPM or the last few scenes of ROTJ.

I don't want him to be a noble character, the phrase I used was element of nobility, as in, there's still good in him. Right now the "good" is that he saved his son, which is just an extension of the same selfishness that got him into this mess.

It really should be Anakin vs. Palps - not just a conversation but an actual fight. Who ends up being who's puppet? Anakin should be victorious since objectively, he's much more powerful than any Sith, but if Palps were written cleverly, it could be plausible that he'd pull off an upset. He's a devious little bastard.

Not necessarily in the fight - even if Anakin kicked Palps to the curb, Palps would still be plotting a way to throw off Anakin's control, and Anakin's never displayed anywhere near Palpatine's level of guile. As it is now I think he actually gave Anakin the Padme visions after he found out about Anakin's mother (he knew about the visions inexplicably in RotS).

Anyway we now know why Vader didn't overthrow Palps for 20 years - the Dark Side exerts total mind control. Once Anakin fell into that trap, he was helpless and essentially not even there anymore.

But it doesn't make him obey Palpatine, Vader was ready to take over with Luke back in ESB and he was still dark sided at that time.

Wanting to keep the Sith around to spread evil and corruption would still make him an evil douchebag in the first place, someone who essentially wanted to see Jedi efforts in the galaxy negated.

Didn't the Mortis episodes outright state too much light side or too much dark side is disastrous? He'd need the Sith if the light side got out of control down the line.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Oh man it would have been awesome to see Revan and Bane!

 

[Set Harth]

Didn't the Mortis episodes outright state too much light side or too much dark side is disastrous? He'd need the Sith if the light side got out of control down the line.

The Jedi don't create "too much light side". We know that from the PT, where 9,000 Jedi and 2 Sith leave the Force unbalanced toward the dark side. The Sith promote evil and suffering. He wouldn't "need" the Sith for anything, unless he needed to counteract and undermine the positive efforts of the Jedi, which would make him evil. What the galaxy needs is for the Sith to be eliminated. Again, you can't change this without throwing out the OT entirely. Jedi are not tantamount to Sith.

 

[DarthPipes]

First off, Filoni's commentary revealed they were going to have Darth Revan and Darth Bane speak to the Son, however although he and Lucas both loved the scene they cut it because they didn't like the implication that Revan and Bane could retain their individualities. Still, they have the models so hopefully they'll be worked into a later ep somehow.

I'm glad they didn't go this route. I think the Son was an excellent villain and didn't need a pair of devils speaking into his ears. Plus, I think the power to retain your identity should be exclusive to the Jedi. I hope too that they'll find a way to work in both Bane and Revan into the show.

I don't want him to be a noble character, the phrase I used was element of nobility, as in, there's still good in him. Right now the "good" is that he saved his son, which is just an extension of the same selfishness that got him into this mess.

So it was selfish of him to save his son?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I think there are many routes to darkside-ism - hate, fear, and selfishness have all been implied or shown. And it could also be that simply being too attached to others, in a perfectly "healthy" sense, that you are bothered by a horrible war that is causing destruction and you are desperate to try anything to stop it. That's not a terrible impulse. It's a good impulse. The only problem with it is that it's human. To err is human, but to have the power of the Chosen One, you frakkin well be divine.

The Mortis arc confirms that the Light and Dark Sides are not good and evil. So why is it necessary that the Dark Side be attractive only through evil? The underlying philosophy is not that simplistic.

It's perfectly possible for Anakin to be both heroic and also human and fallible, and incapable of truly exercising the power required of him in an effective way until he's been through the mill. The story can still work fine with him not being particularly selfish, fearful, hateful, etc. He can just have those qualities in the same proportion that any of us would, or maybe somewhat less. Combined with the power and responsibility of being the Chosen One, that's enough to doom him.

As it is now I think he actually gave Anakin the Padme visions after he found out about Anakin's mother (he knew about the visions inexplicably in RotS).

That's always been my assumption (and I wonder why Anakin didn't think of it when Palps confesses to being a Sith - that would have been my very first thought! This guy has been setting me up and playing me for a chump!) It's just too convenient otherwise. What, the universe is on Palps' side and decides to drive Anakin crazy for his convenience? Bah!

But it doesn't make him obey Palpatine, Vader was ready to take over with Luke back in ESB and he was still dark sided at that time.

Yeah, since I think they only just decided on the total-mind-control aspect of the Dark Side (is this the first we've seen of that notion?), it fits pretty sloppily into canon. Maybe it wears off a little over time?

Didn't the Mortis episodes outright state too much light side or too much dark side is disastrous? He'd need the Sith if the light side got out of control down the line.

Yeah, that's definitely been established. What constitutes the Light Side being "out of control" is another question. I tried envisioning the Daughter wreaking havoc if the Son were out of commission. Maybe being too self-sacrificing would annoy everyone?

I think the answer must be along the lines of the Dark Side being the element that causes chaos and therefore change. The Light Side alone causes stagnation. Something like that.

 

[fett51]

The Jedi don't create "too much light side". We know that from the PT, where 9,000 Jedi and 2 Sith leave the Force unbalanced toward the dark side. The Sith promote evil and suffering. He wouldn't "need" the Sith for anything, unless he needed to counteract and undermine the positive efforts of the Jedi, which would make him evil. What the galaxy needs is for the Sith to be eliminated. Again, you can't change this without throwing out the OT entirely. Jedi are not tantamount to Sith.

We saw the Son feeding off conflict in one of the Mortis episodes. If the dark side gains strength the same way, well, Palpatine was in charge of the galaxy for virtually the entire saga. I don't think it's impossible he could out-influence the Jedi.

So it was selfish of him to save his son?

Yes. Same with Padme. I admit the obsession aspect is less clear with Luke than it was with Padme, but I consider his behavior consistent - he was willing to hurt Luke but not okay with his death, and he was willing to kill everything and everyone Luke cared about.

Yeah, since I think they only just decided on the total-mind-control aspect of the Dark Side (is this the first we've seen of that notion?), it fits pretty sloppily into canon. Maybe it wears off a little over time?

Ish. We heard from Yoda "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny." I still don't think mind-control applies to Anakin at that time, he was ready to overthrow Palps in RotS as well. Best guess I had was that he didn't think he could do it after he got stuck in the suit, but the Mortis eps took out that explanation.

I think the answer must be along the lines of the Dark Side being the element that causes chaos and therefore change. The Light Side alone causes stagnation. Something like that.

Similar thinking on my end. That said Jedi/Sith choices of government are a bit antithetical - democracy is chaotic and dictatorship is orderly.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

So how does that jibe with notion of the Republic being stagnant and deserving of overthrow? Did the presence of the Jedi without counterbalancing Sith cause the stagnation? Maybe Palps has got the right idea, kick some butts and shake things up!

I'm still trying to envision how balancing the Force manifests itself in a political or social structure. Perhaps the conflict is the point?

I keep thinking that if Anakin sits down and really thinks about balancing the Force, he will come to very different conclusions about what needs to be done than anyone else does. He should be working against both Jedi and Sith, since both sides are striving to win. To balance the Force on a literal level, he should ally himself with whoever is the underdog at any given time.

 

[Icemizer]

The extremes of light and dark are both the same. They will use whatever means necessary to get others to obey them. They both say they desire peace, but only on their terms. Both see what they are doing as the only right thing to be done.
^I am sure that Mubarak would argue that a dictatorship is anything but orderly.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Light and Dark Sides are better thought of in terms of the natural order of things. Predators are bad, right? But if predators are taken out of an ecosystem, the prey animals proliferate and eat everything in site. They destroy the environment and becoming sickly, also destroy themselves.

Neither side needs to seek dominance to be "bad." The simple fact of imbalance is what's bad. Each side just does what its nature tells it to do, and that's what creates the bad effects.