Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far
- Thread starter JediKnightButler
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Revan's a Jedi! When the first preview scene of Qui-Gon's ghost came out a few weeks ago, I was hoping that the three people he spoke of trying to get Anakin to take their side would be old Sith and Jedi ghosts, and that one of them would be Revan. I mean, he's exactly what Anakin would be if Anakin wasn't a colossal screw-up who lacked the courage of his convictions. Jedi to Sith to Jedi (for more than ten minutes for that last part), wears a scary mask that he got for himself rather than had assigned by his boss, had a romantic relationship that was an uplifting and positive glorification of the light rather than a near-total failure that served to confirm the stereotype at the root the Jedi's most obscene and hidebound tradition.
Anakin Skywalker could've done much, much worse than have a heart-to-heart with Revan. Of course, the dumb bastard probably wouldn't have listened to a word he said.
Maybe the Mother is the Force herself? Kinda the Mother Nature idea.
After finally seeing part three and absorbing as much of the thread as I could, a few thoughts:
I wouldn't say Anakin's was turned easily. The Son showed Anakin a vision of the full horrific weight of his future actions. Plus, as noted above, Anakin has already taken a step on the path to the Dark Side, as some former Tusken villagers would confirm (if they could). Ahsoka's quick turn is reasonable: a Padawan is going up against one of the most powerful Dark Side Force users in the galaxy.
I can't agree here. As Set Harth explained above:
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And the key to all this, that the Mortis Trilogy went to great pains to show us, is that the Father ultimately restored balance to the Force through self-sacrifice. By killing himself, he weakend the Son which allowed him to be killed by Anakin.
Anakin wasn't ready to make this self-sacrifice in ROTS.
By ROTJ, Anakin sees his son perform the ultimate self-sacrifice: laying down his weapon, refusing to kill his own father, and thereby opening himself to Palpatine's attack. Seeing his son perform the act that he was never able to finally made Anakin understand what had to be done, and took advantage of Palpatine's distraction to finally make an end of Palpatine.
(Now you could argue that saving his son was an act of attachment - he didn't want Luke killed. I agree and it's interesting to contemplate that perhaps he never ever completely learned his lesson.)
"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." - Yoda.
I wouldn't say Anakin's was turned easily. The Son showed Anakin a vision of the full horrific weight of his future actions. Plus, as noted above, Anakin has already taken a step on the path to the Dark Side, as some former Tusken villagers would confirm (if they could). Ahsoka's quick turn is reasonable: a Padawan is going up against one of the most powerful Dark Side Force users in the galaxy.
Temis the Vorta said:
I can't agree here. As Set Harth explained above:
This is it. The events shown here are a direct parallel/foreshadowing of what happens in the overall saga. The Sith (Son) kill the Jedi (Daughter). The Sith are then ascendant and the Force is out of balance. The Chosen One (Father) then destroys the Sith with the help of his successor and the balance is restored.
----
And the key to all this, that the Mortis Trilogy went to great pains to show us, is that the Father ultimately restored balance to the Force through self-sacrifice. By killing himself, he weakend the Son which allowed him to be killed by Anakin.
Anakin wasn't ready to make this self-sacrifice in ROTS.
By ROTJ, Anakin sees his son perform the ultimate self-sacrifice: laying down his weapon, refusing to kill his own father, and thereby opening himself to Palpatine's attack. Seeing his son perform the act that he was never able to finally made Anakin understand what had to be done, and took advantage of Palpatine's distraction to finally make an end of Palpatine.
(Now you could argue that saving his son was an act of attachment - he didn't want Luke killed. I agree and it's interesting to contemplate that perhaps he never ever completely learned his lesson.)
Wasn't there a bit of help in turn Ahsoka - namely when she was bitten (and possibly poisoned) by Son in the form of that little creature?
I was thinking that just like Anakin didn't have a father, neither the Son or the Daughter had a mother.
I've also heard a theory that that Nightsister Mother might be the Mother. But then again, if she were she could have easily taken revenge on Dooku for Ventress.
Well the idea that Father is from a race that can have offspring split off themselves is not supported by the fact that the siblings are of two genders. I guess the immaculate thing is possible if the male of the species carries babies to term. Or they change genders at will and Father used to be Mother.
Yeah the Son took the form of a critter and bit her. He didn't even attempt to persuade her of anything - well, he made a half-hearted attempt, I guess, but quickly gave up. By literally injecting the Dark Side into someone, you can turn them, apparently permanently. Sorta like being assimilated by the Borg. I assume this isn't something your average Sith can do.
Anakin's "turn" in the Mortis episode was very unconvincing. Why would he go Dark Side because of the horrors that he saw as a result of going Dark Side? Wouldn't that make him want to do the opposite? And since the Son has the ability to flat-out brainwash a Jedi, why even bother with persuasion?
I think this is another indication that Star Wars just needs to steer clear of psychology. They tend to make a mess of it.
And it's completely clear that the Mortis episode establishes the need for the Light and Dark Sides in the galaxy, in order to achieve balance. The only reason that Anakin killing the Son achieved balance is because the Daughter was already dead.
There's another continuity problem. I could see AOTC Anakin going apeshit and slaughtering the Tuskens, because he was a creepy weirdo from the start. But I just can't reconcile that notion with TCW Anakin. They've changed the character so much that he no longer fits into the PT continuity, and he certainly isn't enough of a dolt to fall for Palps' bullshit in ROTS because they're portraying him as too level-headed and smart now.
I'm sure it's possible to get a smart, mentally stable, heroic, genuinely warm-hearted Anakin to fall to the Dark Side, but they're not going to be able to depend on him to do it because he's stupid and evil now that he's no longer being stupid and evil. They've given themselves a tougher task this time around.
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I'd take it she wasn't "turned" at all, any more than the stormtrooper who waved through Obi-Wan and Luke at Mos Eisley was made a servant of the light by the Jedi mind trick.
Well, his (extremely-glossed-over) rationale for turning seemed to be that if he was able to break the rules, he'd be able to destroy the Emperor before the Empire ever rose. Of course, he'd need the Son's help, not to mention power, ferocity, guile, strike-first-ed-ness, and other Dark Side traits. I believe in the E.U. Luke had something similar happen where he felt he had to turn to the Dark Side, if only temporarily, to get the brute-force strength he'd need to defeat a certain over-powered threat to galactic prosperity. Trouble is, as with so many things in real life, it's only hard to cheat the rules until you've actually tried it out. After that, exceptions to your code become so much easier to rationalize.
And as for why not brainwash him, he didn't need a puppet to use as a distraction or as a prop, like Ashoka, he needed a partner, someone he could trust (yes, I know how that sounds). Anakin had to embrace the Dark Side willingly, not be some mind-controlled patsy who would be unable to think for himself and need to be babysat to make sure he didn't shake things off and come to his senses.
I interpreted it as a nod to the Christian Holy Trinity.
I guess the Daughter is a stand-in for the Holy Spirit.
The dialogue made it clear that she'd been taken over by the Dark Side. She didn't seem at all ineffective, so why would Anakin need to be taken over by any other means (even if it were convincing that he was willing, which I didn't buy, at least not in that scene)?
If the Jedi don't have those traits too, they better give up fighting because they're doomed. Why is "striking first" and being fierce, sneaky and powerful a bad thing when fighting for something good?
io9.com is reporting two upcoming guest stars.
SpoilerISH.
One of those, cool, and already in trailers.
The other? Meh. The Star Wars universe I guess is a small place.
SpoilerISH.
One of those, cool, and already in trailers.
The other? Meh. The Star Wars universe I guess is a small place.
Temis the Vorta said:
I meant inherently - democracies can shift and change at any time, it's built into the system. Dictatorships on the other hand tend to be as well controlled as the person in charge can make them. Palpatine obviously screwed that up or the Alliance wouldn't have been able to form. As for the Republic, it was a mess but certainly some of that was Palpatine's influence (you may remember we saw his buddy Mas Amedda holding Chancellor Valorum's leash in TPM) so I'm hesitant to say a full-blown revolution was necessary.
I don't think the balance of the force translates into a government or social situation, I was more commenting on how followers of the light side/dark side choose to behave. I can't think of any indication from the films/TCW that the force much cares about what us lifeforms do so long as the force remains balanced.
I see dictatorships as inherently far less stable than democracies. They just hide their instability better. That's why one change can have catastrophic effects in a dictatorship. Remove Saddam, and Iraq explodes. But remove the leader in a democracy and everyone shrugs.
I just rewatched the Mortis trilogy to see how it hangs together as a mini-move. Very well, I'd say. And I noticed a few things I missed or glossed over the first time:
-Obi-Wan got a front row seat seeing darksided Anakin, who told him flat out "you won't understand what I need to do to stop the Clone War." I really hope Obi-Wan intends to include that in his report to the Jedi Council. That, combined with the knowledge that Obi-Wan now has, that the Force wants balance rather than victory by either side, points to the notion that "balancing the Force" and ending the Clone War just might entail Anakin trying to wipe out the Jedi.
-Anakin doesn't remember being darksided, but he does know it's because of memories implanted by the Son, based on what the Father told him after he was cured. So now he has a big fat clue that things implanted in his brain can darkside him, and as far as he knows, these things aren't fated to happen (the Father makes that point). So later on, when he sees visions of Padme dying, he'll remember this incident and be skeptical of whether to believe those visions, and leery of their potential to darkside him - right?
-Also for Obi-Wan's report: it's frighteningly easy for even the most faithful and trustworthy Jedi to get darksided. Ahsoka was bitten (not sure if she remembers this to report it?) and Anakin was effectively driven mad with visions (it doesn't much matter if the visions showed future events or just any old thing that might happen - Anakin couldn't know the difference - which implies that any sequence of upsetting events would have driven him over the edge). I don't know if the Jedi have seen this happen to their people before, but it's pretty shocking to see how vulnerable they all are. Obi-Wan might assume that the Son did things that an ordinary Sith couldn't, but he can't know that for sure.
So now both the Jedi and Anakin have forewarnings they never had in the PT, which should help them avoid their dire future. If that dire future happens anyway (and of course it will), we'll need to see a good explanation why these presumably intelligent and highly-motivated people failed to avoid the looming train wreck regardless.
It's a good thing to have these forewarnings - it's a fairer way to write a story instead of "everyone stands around obliviously picking their noses until Palps lower the boom." I'd like to see the good guys given a fair opportunity to counterattack intelligently and put up a reasonable fight.
I just rewatched the Mortis trilogy to see how it hangs together as a mini-move. Very well, I'd say. And I noticed a few things I missed or glossed over the first time:
-Obi-Wan got a front row seat seeing darksided Anakin, who told him flat out "you won't understand what I need to do to stop the Clone War." I really hope Obi-Wan intends to include that in his report to the Jedi Council. That, combined with the knowledge that Obi-Wan now has, that the Force wants balance rather than victory by either side, points to the notion that "balancing the Force" and ending the Clone War just might entail Anakin trying to wipe out the Jedi.
-Anakin doesn't remember being darksided, but he does know it's because of memories implanted by the Son, based on what the Father told him after he was cured. So now he has a big fat clue that things implanted in his brain can darkside him, and as far as he knows, these things aren't fated to happen (the Father makes that point). So later on, when he sees visions of Padme dying, he'll remember this incident and be skeptical of whether to believe those visions, and leery of their potential to darkside him - right?
-Also for Obi-Wan's report: it's frighteningly easy for even the most faithful and trustworthy Jedi to get darksided. Ahsoka was bitten (not sure if she remembers this to report it?) and Anakin was effectively driven mad with visions (it doesn't much matter if the visions showed future events or just any old thing that might happen - Anakin couldn't know the difference - which implies that any sequence of upsetting events would have driven him over the edge). I don't know if the Jedi have seen this happen to their people before, but it's pretty shocking to see how vulnerable they all are. Obi-Wan might assume that the Son did things that an ordinary Sith couldn't, but he can't know that for sure.
So now both the Jedi and Anakin have forewarnings they never had in the PT, which should help them avoid their dire future. If that dire future happens anyway (and of course it will), we'll need to see a good explanation why these presumably intelligent and highly-motivated people failed to avoid the looming train wreck regardless.
It's a good thing to have these forewarnings - it's a fairer way to write a story instead of "everyone stands around obliviously picking their noses until Palps lower the boom." I'd like to see the good guys given a fair opportunity to counterattack intelligently and put up a reasonable fight.
I just belatedly saw the last two Mortis episodes. Excellent stuff! I can't believe the same team who made the first half of this season made these last six episodes. What an amazing change in quality. I wish they had intercut the Savage and Mortis stories with all those horrible early season episodes to lessen the blow.
All three Mortis episodes were written by the same guy, Christian Taylor. If it's the same guy as on imdb, then his resume includes Lost and Miracles - interesting.
But the earlier boring episodes were probably just sunk by the topic. Star Wars meshes much better with personal and mystical material, and not nearly as well with political stuff, particularly when it's as complicated and ambiguous as the problem of corruption.
Star Wars is essentially a fairy tale - elemental, simplified - but to tell a political story, you have to bring in a lot of complexity to make it real, probably too much complexity for any of us to want to slog thru, much less the kids who this show is largely aimed at. So they have to simplify the story, but then it becomes unconvincing and generic. Eh.
The Mortis Arc was great because it returns Star Wars to the fairy tale/mythological approach which was utterly missing in the PT. That was a major contributing factor to why the PT felt so "dead," un-epic and un-Star Wars-y.
More simplified politics would work - liberal democracy vs fascist dictatorship, or bringing in the personal dimension like with Padme's Separatist friend - but they need to steer clear of anything with an economic basis (which includes corruption).
But now that they've established the Republic as corrupt, I don't think they need to return to that theme anyway. I'm convinced and don't want to suffer through any more convincing.
I suspect the purpose of the corruption episodes was to make us understand why Anakin later decides the Republic isn't worth salvaging, and decides to pursue his own strategy of bringing balance to the cosmos as the only solution. That places the mythology in the driver's seat, where it belongs, with politics being a minor factor - political and military solutions will not work, the only hope is for the Chosen One to bring balance to the Force, then everything is hunky-dory.
However, it really is essential to objectively establish the Republic as corrupt. In the PT, when Anakin started ranting about how much he hates democracy, I had no idea how to interpret that. Is he correct? Or is that just another bratty tantrum from someone too dense to understand politics at all? Now I know any future political statements from Anakin will have an intelligent basis, and should be taken at face value and not as an indication of his stupidity or personality flaws.
But the earlier boring episodes were probably just sunk by the topic. Star Wars meshes much better with personal and mystical material, and not nearly as well with political stuff, particularly when it's as complicated and ambiguous as the problem of corruption.
Star Wars is essentially a fairy tale - elemental, simplified - but to tell a political story, you have to bring in a lot of complexity to make it real, probably too much complexity for any of us to want to slog thru, much less the kids who this show is largely aimed at. So they have to simplify the story, but then it becomes unconvincing and generic. Eh.
The Mortis Arc was great because it returns Star Wars to the fairy tale/mythological approach which was utterly missing in the PT. That was a major contributing factor to why the PT felt so "dead," un-epic and un-Star Wars-y.
More simplified politics would work - liberal democracy vs fascist dictatorship, or bringing in the personal dimension like with Padme's Separatist friend - but they need to steer clear of anything with an economic basis (which includes corruption).
But now that they've established the Republic as corrupt, I don't think they need to return to that theme anyway. I'm convinced and don't want to suffer through any more convincing.
I suspect the purpose of the corruption episodes was to make us understand why Anakin later decides the Republic isn't worth salvaging, and decides to pursue his own strategy of bringing balance to the cosmos as the only solution. That places the mythology in the driver's seat, where it belongs, with politics being a minor factor - political and military solutions will not work, the only hope is for the Chosen One to bring balance to the Force, then everything is hunky-dory.
However, it really is essential to objectively establish the Republic as corrupt. In the PT, when Anakin started ranting about how much he hates democracy, I had no idea how to interpret that. Is he correct? Or is that just another bratty tantrum from someone too dense to understand politics at all? Now I know any future political statements from Anakin will have an intelligent basis, and should be taken at face value and not as an indication of his stupidity or personality flaws.
The same PT which introduced the whole mythological Chosen One prophecy and balance of the Force plotline in the first place?
Major Star Wars character to appear in Season Finale:
Chewbacca. And some of his voice is actually going to be from Peter Mayhew.
clip from episode
clip from episode
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