Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Saul]

I thought Darth Maul looked that way because they were tatoos.

It might still be. They might be a race that's divided into tribes and their tribe tattoos themselves. Isn't Eath Koth part of that same race? He's got no facial markings like that.

Yeah that's right. But I thought these Tattoos were Sith Tattoos, as a way of showing devotion to the ancient race. (I know we are hitting EU territory here)

For me the idea of the night sisters and Asaji is not a problem because they aren't Sith. The Sith are more powerful and have tapped deeper into the dark side.

Savage, I think messses up the dark side concept. More of a Zombie out of control rather than someone manipulated into turning to the dark side. I also don't understand how he took out 2 Jedi so easily. He has had no training in the ways of the force unlike the Jedi who could use that against him to their advantage. Here we see Brute strength win out over two force sensitive Jedi warriors. Savage was even shot in the chest....I mean...what is that? He is stronger than a droid or clone or jedi or sith? because they all seem to like avoid being shot at. Is he going to start blocking sabers with his hands next?

 

[Admiral_Young]

I thought those were Sith Tattoos as well and not part of the Zabrak skin pigmentation. Same with Darth Maladi from the Legacy series. I thought she had tattoos over her red skin as well.

 

[DarthPipes]

Infighting is what helped bring about the Sith's downfall. Too many Sith and they end up killing each other.

Really, when you think about it, that should be the genetic supermen of Khan's time. The warlords would naturally fight among themselves. That was my problem with the Augment storyline on Enterprise. That the group decides to follow one leader when in reality they would likely be constantly fighting each other because of their superior intelligence.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

This was just after Anakin massacred the younglings and the separatist leaders. He was probably still overwhelmed by powers no Jedi should ever dig into.

Yet another instance of the writing and acting failing to communicate the story (if that's what was intended) so that the fans are left to fill in the blanks. Although it's lots of fun to speculate, I'm old fashioned enough to expect the movie to actually do the work for me.

I mean, did you see the look in his eyes? He looked completely possessed, intoxicated by finally giving in to dark temptations. It was one of those rare moments when Christensen actually delivered, IMO

.

He just had the same "donkey hit on the head with a two by four" expression he had in the rest of the PT. If I was supposed to be seeing something different, they needed to work harder at delivering the message.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Couple things here, first the Jedi deliberately limit the power they can get and abilities they use. Yoda for example demonstrated he's perfectly capable of blocking or reflecting force lightning, but he never, ever uses it.

That ties into something I've wondered about (but can't recall ever having seen definitively confirmed onscreen): does using dark side powers actually make you more vulnerable to the dark side?

If so, that would be evidence that the dark side is an actual "entity" of some sort, and the Force isn't just a continuum of power that is dark or light depending on how you use it. There is some "thing" out there, lurking in the wings, waiting for a chink in the armor...

 

[fett51]

That ties into something I've wondered about (but can't recall ever having seen definitively confirmed onscreen): does using dark side powers actually make you more vulnerable to the dark side?

If so, that would be evidence that the dark side is an actual "entity" of some sort, and the Force isn't just a continuum of power that is dark or light depending on how you use it. There is some "thing" out there, lurking in the wings, waiting for a chink in the armor...

Not necessarily. Per Lucas the dark side is more powerful, using dark side powers could push someone to the dark side simply because they got a taste and wanted more. There've also been some Jedi over the years who started using the dark side because they thought they needed extra power to achieve some noble goal, stopping a war or wiping out slavers for example. The addictiveness and insidiousness of it could just be the corruption of power.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Here's another random idea: what if falling to the dark side is actually a Jedi mind trick that someone uses on themselves?

Think about it this way: even if someone likes power, unless he is a sociopath (and very few people are), he's always going to have pangs of conscience about using power for evil ends.

The usual way people cope is through rationalization that what they're doing isn't evil. But that's too lame and mundane to apply to the Sith. Everyone knows the Sith are evil, plus it's not like they can use the usual rationalizations, "I'm fighting for my planet/ideology/species/etc and therefore anything I get up to is fully justified." Having naked self-interest as your sole motivator in life allows for no rationalizations.

So how do they squelch their innate humanity that is such a tedious obstacle to gaining more power? By using Jedi mind control powers on themselves. Maybe there's a way to brainwash yourself to simply wipe away that pesky conscience.

And once you do it, that really is the point of no return, because having no conscience negates your motive to restore your conscience!

 

[fett51]

So how do they squelch their innate humanity that is such a tedious obstacle to gaining more power? By using Jedi mind control powers on themselves. Maybe there's a way to brainwash yourself to simply wipe away that pesky conscience.

And once you do it, that really is the point of no return, because having no conscience negates your motive to restore your conscience!

There was a Sith in KotOR that had exactly that problem, she felt her compassion was the only thing holding her back from true power. If you turn her back to the light, she remarks she was never really a Sith because of that.

The Sith we've seen on film so far seem to have something they want to the point they no longer care about anything else, including their own conscience. Anakin had Padme, Ventress has revenge, Palps said in RotS "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy and we shall have peace" - can't be sure there will never be a war again unless he has total control over everything and everyone. From what we know of Dooku from AotC he got frustrated with the Republic and the Jedi and is probably convinced everything would just be so much better if he were in charge. Why they allow themselves to be consumed by a singular desire is certainly an open question,as far as I know it would be possible they can use the force to blank out their own doubts, but they'd have to be conscious of it, which would mean it was reversible. The closest situation I am aware of involved a Jedi cutting themself off from the force and then forgetting both why and that they had been the one to do it - if that wasn't a mind trick it was damn close. It was reversible though, and in lieu of massive spoilers, I'll just say Jedi deprogramming a Sith lord would not be without precedent.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

It was reversible though, and in lieu of massive spoilers, I'll just say Jedi deprogramming a Sith lord would not be without precedent.

Well I don't want massive spoilers, but what novel (I assume it's a novel) did that happen in? (Spoiler code it since that itself is a spoiler I guess )

Yeah I guess it's good enough explanation to say that some people will do anything for power, and the motive/situation varies by the individual. I just like casting around for other ideas, especially ones that make the process more unique to the Force rather than the usual story of Power Corrupts.

 

[O'Dib]

That story is in the Knights of the Old Republic video game (the first one). Not sure if there was a novelization. You could just read about

Spoiler: Darth

Revan

on Wookiepedia.

 

[fett51]

^No novelization, and IIRC the comics end long before the game begins.

Yeah I guess it's good enough explanation to say that some people will do anything for power, and the motive/situation varies by the individual. I just like casting around for other ideas, especially ones that make the process more unique to the Force rather than the usual story of Power Corrupts.

I think Lucas was using the force as a metaphor to lecture kids on how easy it is to go bad, so having some element of corruption be unique to it would've undermined his goal. Pretty much everything that really explored the psychology of dark siders and tried to give them a semi-legitimate worldview has been in the last decade or so. One good thing about the prequels at least

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The problem with the "attempts at a semi-legitimate worldview" for the darksiders is that they come off as lame. If the "solution" is to make characters look stupid or like victims, I'd rather they just go for a simplistic good/evil, black/white approach.

 

[fett51]

That depends on the writer. Lucas certainly screwed up with Anakin, and it seems even he knows it now. Some of the EU writers on the other hand have tried to turn the Sith and dark side use into debatable philosophies. Some of them have the Sith essentially embracing social Darwinism, others seem to have taken cues from staunchly individualistic philosophers, some are represented as people with noble goals who have decided the ends justify whatever means they use. Given what we saw the last couple weeks with Ventress and Savage I doubt we'll be seeing any of that from Lucas-approved CW anytime soon, but I think the stories would be better served by incorporating reasons why characters turn one way or the other rather than "and one day Anakin decided to go crazy and kill everyone."

Edit: I should add that the trilogy following next week's episode is supposed to deal heavily with the nature of the force, the dark side, and Anakin as the chosen one. What I've heard/seen so far isn't filling me with confidence, but we'll see.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Edit: I should add that the trilogy following next week's episode is supposed to deal heavily with the nature of the force, the dark side, and Anakin as the chosen one. What I've heard/seen so far isn't filling me with confidence, but we'll see.

Intriguing...at least it will be fodder for discussion, and it's certainly stuff that this series should be dealing with. I was worried they would just ignore it. So far, TCW's writers have done a nice job extrapolating on/retconning the material they've been given, so I'd be surprised if they totally frak it up.

Some of the EU writers on the other hand have tried to turn the Sith and dark side use into debatable philosophies.

Here's what I would do: instead of portraying various individuals being attracted to the dark side because of what they think (various philosophies to rationalize it), it would be an outgrowth of their personalities and circumstances - more feeling than thought (because Star Wars is more about emotion than ideas).

So from that perspective, depicting Anakin as a stupid mama's boy who goes into a tizzy because he thinks Padme's life is in danger is actually the right idea: the unpredictable interaction of personality and circumstance is something that could easily blindside any individual Jedi, no matter how smart and alert, and the Jedi Council wouldn't see it coming in detail either, just another frakkin "disturbance in the Force."

Where it went wrong is in the details, especially in depicting Anakin as stupid and weak. There is a vast range of personality types that you can have interact with an even vaster range of circumstances, so why pick one combo that annoys the audience and makes the hero look unnecessarily bad?

Here's just one of the many, many ways it could have worked out better: Have Anakin be a loose cannon who thumbs his nose at the rules, egotistical about all this "chosen one" malarky, and also impatient at the inadequacies of the Republic he's being asked to risk his life for (and not care about friends risking theirs) - all the corruption, the dumbass politicians, etc.

Then have something happen that really makes the Republic not worth it (Asoka dies or falls to the dark side and Anakin is expected to hunt her down and kill her). He's already got one foot out the door, and that would be the final straw. He should be the one to seek out Darth Sidious, not the other way around. I'd like to have him be the only one who sees thru Palps early on, but being curious about what motivates someone to become a Sith, he doesn't share his misgivings with other Jedi.

 

[DarKush]

Infighting is what helped bring about the Sith's downfall. Too many Sith and they end up killing each other.

Really, when you think about it, that should be the genetic supermen of Khan's time. The warlords would naturally fight among themselves. That was my problem with the Augment storyline on Enterprise. That the group decides to follow one leader when in reality they would likely be constantly fighting each other because of their superior intelligence.

One good example of this is the current Star Wars comic Knight Errant, with two warring Sith Lord brothers. Also, the Darth Bane books delve into this idea (which takes place about a generation after the KE comic). Interestingly enough, in the current Fate of the Jedi novels the Lost Tribe of Sith are generally cooperative (there is the occasional backstabbing) and the comic Legacy, which takes place over a century after the OT, has the One Sith, an army of thousands of Sith that seem to get along, under the iron will of Darth Krayt.

 

[fett51]

So far, TCW's writers have done a nice job extrapolating on/retconning the material they've been given, so I'd be surprised if they totally frak it up.

That's normally my view, however this trailer:

http://starwars.com/video/view/001162.html

Spoiler: the trailer

I worked out from the episode descriptions that got posted that these are the same episodes that feature the dark force guy turning into a giant bat. Looks like you may not be far off about Ahsoka turning dark, however it looks like a wizard did it

Here's just one of the many, many ways it could have worked out better: Have Anakin be a loose cannon who thumbs his nose at the rules, egotistical about all this "chosen one" malarky, and also impatient at the inadequacies of the Republic he's being asked to risk his life for (and not care about friends risking theirs) - all the corruption, the dumbass politicians, etc.

I completely agree - I think there are shadings of this in his existing character, he does admit to being frustrated with the Jedi and thinking the Republic is useless in RotS, but we never see a good reason why.

Then have something happen that really makes the Republic not worth it (Asoka dies or falls to the dark side and Anakin is expected to hunt her down and kill her). He's already got one foot out the door, and that would be the final straw. He should be the one to seek out Darth Sidious, not the other way around. I'd like to have him be the only one who sees thru Palps early on, but being curious about what motivates someone to become a Sith, he doesn't share his misgivings with other Jedi.

Well that would exacerbate the existing problem of having all the Jedi not notice Palpatine was bad until just before Ep 3. The other issue is there's a large difference between fed up and "I am going to kill you, your Republic, and your wee younglings too!"

As long as we're talking about Ahsoka and Anakin's motivations, one thing that struck me is that, in AotC, when Anakin was about to go off on a tear to save Padme after she fell out of the gunship on Geonosis, Obi-wan said "what would Padme do" and Anakin shut up, but in RotS, Anakin obviously doesn't consider that. Back on the TFN forums I was trying to shoehorn Ahsoka into fixing that particular plot hole and hit on the notion Padme gets endangered again, Anakin goes to do something INSANE to save her and Ahsoka tries to stop him. Anakin doesn't listen, she won't let him do it and he kills her in a duel. Anakin then can't consider what Padme would want because doing so would mean Ahsoka was right.

 

[Set Harth]

The Nightsisters' ambiguous moral nature is more evidence for the idea that the "Light" and "Dark" sides of the Force are just ideas people have about the Force

That includes specific people - such as Lucas and his collaborators. The mere existence of beings with "ambiguous moral nature" ( if that's what we're calling the behavior of the Nightsisters ) is not evidence for Force revisionism. It's simply the uninteresting fact that beings of "ambiguous moral nature" tend to exist in any universe.

which is actually one continuous, undifferentiated spectrum of energy that can be used for good or evil or something inbetween. If you do something good with the Force, that's called the Light side. If you do something bad with it, that's called the Dark side.

The dark side isn't "being bad". According to Lucas there is such a thing as a dark side Force power, something that is of the dark side no matter what is done with it because it requires the use of the dark side in the first place. The "being good"/"being bad" revisionism ( while making the phrase "use the dark side" redundant ) doesn't fit with the balance of the Force plotline in the PT, in which the growth of the dark side can be perceived by the Jedi.

But in fact, "falling" doesn't actually happen - it's a myth.

In the SW universe it's no myth. It does happen.

Of course all of this is in total violation of what makes Star Wars unique - the notion that the Dark and Light sides of the Force do mean something more than just the social and political uses that people make of those terms.

If you see a lack of duality in the real world, that has no bearing on the Force, because there's no Force in the real world. Whatever uses various people might make of those terms in a social or political context, it doesn't have the power to alter the nature of the Force in-universe.

I'd like to have him be the only one who sees thru Palps early on, but being curious about what motivates someone to become a Sith, he doesn't share his misgivings with other Jedi.

It's better when he does the right thing, as in the film ( until the absolute last
second ). But that's apparently not the Anakin some people wanted to see. Some people would have preferred the version where he just joins up with the Sith as soon as he finds out. It's as if ROTJ had said that Anakin was a sleazy prick all along. I guess sleazy prick beats "mama's boy".

 

[Admiral_Young]

Jacen Solo struggled with the philosophy of what the Dark Side was. Ultimately this led to discussions with Vegere who ended up being revealed as a Dark Jedi who was misleading Jacen and eventually he ended up becoming the Sith Lord Darth Caedus. It is the person who uses the Force that determines what "side" it is. At least that seems to be the case with the established on screen canon.

 

[Set Harth]

It is the person who uses the Force that determines what "side" it is. At least that seems to be the case with the established on screen canon.

This Force revision didn't happen on screen. It was promoted in certain books ( but contradicted by others ). The duality of the Force is alive and well during a period of time which includes events such as the story meetings for TESB and the writing of the AOTC script. It is reflected in the balance of the Force in the PT.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

It is the person who uses the Force that determines what "side" it is.

A while back, I started a thread trying to figure out what exactly the deal is with the Force, light and dark sides, etc. I got so many contradictory answers that I figured there was no definite answer and everything was vague and open to interpretation.

For instance, is it really the person who decides (being good or evil, and tapping into a neutral source of power), or is it that a person taps into the light or dark sides (maybe the person has good or evil intent, but they need to tap into the "right" side of the Force for it to work for them).

Here are some basic questions I'd like to see answered.

1. Is the Force a neutral continuum of power (like gravity or electromagnetism), or does it literally have Light and Dark sides?

2. Regardless of the answer to #1, is Star Wars' philosophy Manichean, and everything is either good or evil, or does it exist in shades of gray, and the Jedi and Sith are both deluded to think that anyone can be perfectly good or evil?

3. Is Anakin really the chosen one?

4. What exactly does being the chosen one mean, anyway? Do the Jedi or Sith even understand it correctly?

5. How much and in what proportion is falling to the dark side like or caused by: mind control, demonic possession, drug addiction, lack of character, stupidity, naivete, power lust, psychological damage, out and out madness, and/or pragmatic, cold-blooded choice?

I don't have set opinions on what the answers should be, except that I don't see any reason why what the Jedi believe needs to be the objective truth (ie, the Chosen One unifies the Force into being just the good side - that could be self-serving bullshit), and none of the options I listed in #5 work well on their own as an answer, so it needs to be a combo of factors, but not too heavy on mind control/demonic possession/drug addiction (they let the character off the hook too easily), definitely go easy on lack of character/stupidity/naivete (contemptible characters are boring), and have the actual mix vary according to the person.