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Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

Is it something that wants the good side to win, or something that wants to achieve balance by having neither side win permanently?

In SW, the Force is balanced when the good side wins.:techman:

And the Force is said to have a will.

I always thought TPM was the first time the term "balance" was used in the context of the Force, but it appeared in Tales from the Empire in 1997:
Tales from the Empire said:
"The way of the Force brings balance to the anarchy of life; but you, Adalric," he shook his head reprovingly, "you didn't want balance. Your pride was so great and despite my warnings, you went in search of the unatoneable crime, which inevitably separates the hero from the indigent masses. And you found it, didn't you?"
 
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Last one till January though >_>
Argh, oh well...
Speaking of Lucas, his daughter is writing that arc. So far she's written Jedi Crash (first Aayla ep in S1) and Sphere of Influence and Assassin in S3.

Jedi Crash was fun, Assassin was fairly smart and the depiction of Ahsoka's state of mind caused by the visions was well done. Sphere of Influence was utterly disposable.
 
In SW, the Force is balanced when the good side wins.:techman:

And the Force is said to have a will.

But I think we can say from what happens in the films that its will is not for it to be in "balance" in the sense the Jedi mean it. Bring in the EU and things are decidedly cyclical. Which brings us right back to having no idea what it wants :p
 
But I think we can say from what happens in the films that its will is not for it to be in "balance" in the sense the Jedi mean it.

QUI-GON: Finding him was the will of the Force... I have no doubt of that.

And that led (eventually) to the Force becoming balanced.
 
Tonight's episode was pretty so-so I thought. I'm really dying for some traditional Jedi war episodes.
 
I'd love to see the story changed so that Palps doesn't put Order 66 into the clones' brains. He doesn't need to. He just removes the docility component and allows them to think and react as normal people, who will of course overthrow the oppressive and corrupt Jedi who have been responsible for such a moral outrage for years. If I were one of those clones, I'd shoot a Jedi in the back and do a victory dance on their corpse.

i think that order was necessary so that the clones would be the perfect trap: in case some Jedi was observant to detect rebelliousness, the order keeps the clones sincerely loyal to the Jedi. So the Jedi, when order 66 is executed, truly would not have a clue. Otherwise the Jedi might sense a disturbance in the Force.

Now, from what i understood of Revenge of the Sith, there are still several Jedi out there. Should we get a series following that period, i think we can see the hatred of Jedi by the general population. That might prompt many to join the stormtroopers. Definitely can get the storyline you want, Temis.
 
But I think we can say from what happens in the films that its will is not for it to be in "balance" in the sense the Jedi mean it.

QUI-GON: Finding him was the will of the Force... I have no doubt of that.

And that led (eventually) to the Force becoming balanced.

But the council had plenty of doubts :p

If the force's will is to have no dark siders, then it's REALLY bad at it. Its solution to killing two Sith was to virgin birth Anakin (providing that wasn't Plagueis)? There were a million ways for that to go wrong, and the force was unbalanced for 20 years because of that. Now, if we suppose it had enough influence to keep Anakin (and later Luke and Leia) safe all that time, and the uber power to maneuver Qui-gon to be there to find Anakin at that time, why isn't it strong enough to have Palpatine's pilot accidentally hyperspace his ship into a star or one of a million other easier less risky ways of eliminating the Sith over the last thousand years? It doesn't add up.

As for this episode, rhere were a lot of little things addressed in this episode, I want to watch it again before going for a detailed review, but the highlights for me were Palpatine at the end, Padme calling the clones people (and that Senator not caring), and seeing a Selkath outside a KotOR game. As for issues, does Padme not pay her aides or something? And I'm not even going to get into the ridiculously low numbers of clones and battle droids.
 
Interesting subject matter for a cartoon, you don't often see shows cut so close to the bone with parallels to real world happenings. I can understand wanting to get to some big action and all but I can appreciate what they're going for.
 
It was a interesting episode and I enjoyed it. But the logic here...The Banking Clan admits to Padme that they giving the Seperatists loans to build more droids and they (and the rest of the trade guilds) are STILL part of The Republic? How fucking ridiculous is that?

The Republic pays for the electric and water of planets? Maybe they're broke because they're paying everyone's damn bills! Padme's constituents don't have electricity or water yet Padme still spends tons of money on elaborate wardrobes and wigs? Can she be anymore out of touch as a politician?
 
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I thought this was a pretty good episode. Lots of interesting politics, and it focused on Padme and Bail who are two of my favorite characters. Plus, it finally showed us Palpatine plotting behind everyone's back's which is something I've been wanting to see since it started.

And on a side note: I was having trouble seeing since it was dark.... but I swear the Twi'lek dancer at the bar Robonino and the Selkath were at was naked.
 
wow... that last episode was great! I just hope they will keep the quality. I never knew I would enjoy a purely political episode that much. I loved the discussions in the Senate and the chase through Coruscant. Some awesome takes are in that episode. Dialogues have been great and you can see that this show has evolved from the simple clones vs battledroids into a deeper layered tale about war and the fight for justice.
 
And the episode touched on some of the questions that have been raised in this thread about the ethics behind the clone warriors. We see that there are two points of view: the people who consider the clones merely cannon fodder have no problem continuing and escalating the fighting, while those like Padme who see the clones as people are aware of the war's tragic cost in lives and are trying to stop the fighting.
 
Its solution to killing two Sith was to virgin birth Anakin (providing that wasn't Plagueis)?

Anakin is still the Chosen One even if he was created by Plagueis.

There were a million ways for that to go wrong, and the force was unbalanced for 20 years because of that.

Twenty years beats ten thousand.

Now, if we suppose it had enough influence to keep Anakin (and later Luke and Leia) safe all that time, and the uber power to maneuver Qui-gon to be there to find Anakin at that time, why isn't it strong enough to have Palpatine's pilot accidentally hyperspace his ship into a star or one of a million other easier less risky ways of eliminating the Sith over the last thousand years? It doesn't add up.

The above logic doesn't add up. How did the Sith arise in the first place if the Force could just eliminate them so casually? Let's not forget that it was often a user of the Force who kept Anakin ( and others ) safe, rather than the Force itself.

the highlights for me were Palpatine at the end, Padme calling the clones people (and that Senator not caring), and seeing a Selkath outside a KotOR game.

Too bad they epic-failed on the Selkath's voice. Yet another example of TCW trying to fake EU credibility without actually doing their homework. ( As in the case of Ryloth, where all they had to do to avoid a needless screwup was NOT show a day-night transition... and we all know how that turned out. )
 
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Terrific episode, just the quality of writing that I've been hoping to see in this series. It adds a lot to the story to at last see a plausible depiction of the Republic undergoing severe social, economic and political stresses, which was a big gaping hole in the PT that contributed to the plotline feeling contrived and just not all there.

Padme is coming off far better in this series, and it's impossible to reconcile her depiction here with the weepy useless pregnant girl in ROTS, and I certainly can't see how someone with her fire and drive would ever "decide to die" just because her husband goes off the rails. This isn't a woman who would peg her self-worth to the man in her life, ever. Even if she didn't have two newborn babies to look after, which just makes it all the more hilariously idiotic. The TCW writers, who are clearly vastly better than Lucas, need to be allowed to rewrite ROTS in order to make the whole story cohere.

The good news is that so far TCW has solved two huge problems from the PT: Anakin's characterization and the plausibility of the larger political/economic/social aspects of the war. Good job. Now they have something that seems like a good Star Trek series, where the story is focused on the characters and politics. And I want Star Trek back on TV, so I'm not unhappy if it's gotta be called Clone Wars. :rommie:

But when is this going to be Star Wars again, with the focus on the eternal struggle between good and evil represented by the Force, and no, occasional lightsaber duels between Jedi and Sith isn't what I'm talking about. The plotline needs to be about that conflict, with the personalities and the politics as tangental (if interesting) plotlines. A plotline is not a series of lightsaber fights.

i think that order was necessary so that the clones would be the perfect trap: in case some Jedi was observant to detect rebelliousness, the order keeps the clones sincerely loyal to the Jedi. So the Jedi, when order 66 is executed, truly would not have a clue. Otherwise the Jedi might sense a disturbance in the Force.
The problem with Order 66 is that it's poor drama. It's just "bad guy lays trap, bad guy springs trap." Too dull. There needs to be some sense of the good guys being able to participate in the conflict - there is no conflict, because the good guys never have a chance. Good drama is like a sports game. You want the teams to be evenly matched, not have one team playing a completely different game that the other isn't even aware of.

But that's just part of the larger problem of the PT, that for 2/3rds of the story the good guys aren't even in the game. Instead, just use that 2/3rds as off-screen backstory and start the game when the good guys are actually playing, not sitting on the bench or getting dressed in the locker room. The nice thing about TCW is that the first season or so, they were in the locker room, okay that was setup. In S2, they got all the way onto the court. Now they're actually starting to play the game. It's important to know when to start a story, not just at any random point in the narrative, but when both sides are reasonably close to being ready for the game.

The Banking Clan admits to Padme that they giving the Seperatists loans to build more droids and they (and the rest of the trade guilds) are STILL part of The Republic? How fucking ridiculous is that?
I found that detail to be both chilling and enlightening. It demonstrates the degree to which powerful interests would be just as happy to serve an Empire as a Republic, and it shows that the Senate is powerless to stop them! That gives credence to the Separatists - shit, I'd defect from this rotten Republic, too! - and sets up the fall of the Republic as happening not from fear, but because powerful interests don't value it, and the common people are clueless, apathetic or helpless. We've heard very little from the common people of the Republic until this episode, but I'm getting the sense that they identify with their individual homeworlds more than the Republic.

Now I'm starting to understand: The Republic is less like America and more like the UN. People would put their lives on the line to save their nation, but how many would put their lives on the line to save the UN? No wonder they have to clone soldiers to fight for them, while indigenous forces defend their homeworlds and not the Republic per se. The problem here is that, unlike the real world, this UN has the power to turn into an oppressive force. This is the right-wing wackjob paranoid fantasy of One World Government come to life! :rommie:

Padme calling the clones people (and that Senator not caring),
Finally! Thank you! :rommie: I also noted that she gives some credit to the indigenous fighters all around the galaxy who are defending their worlds. She might have given a shout-out to the Jedi, but as a politician, maybe she doesn't want to been as being "in bed" with them. ;)

Which raises interesting questions about what Anakin's going to think about wifey interfering with the war effort. I can't wait till January! Stupid Christmas! :p

Padme's constituents don't have electricity or water yet Padme still spends tons of money on elaborate wardrobes and wigs?

Speaking of the wigs, that certainly solves another problem of the PT, namely, when did she have time to spend hours with the hairdresser five times a day? :rommie: Oh, those were wigs! That's bugged me for years!
 
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It's true... this series is going places Lucas would never dream of ( it's probably a generational thing ). Like Padme and everyone else blowing off a supposedly Republic-aligned party's aid to the CIS. Like Padme having no idea what's going on with her own handmaiden. Like Gunray not being the leader of the Trade Federation. Like five million troops threatening to bankrupt an economy while social services for trillions supposedly won't result in the same outcome. Like the writers acting as if the word "separatist" means absolutely nothing and not figuring out that "peace with the Republic" from the separatist POV means the Republic losing the war and voluntarily giving up half its territory. Like the politics being nothing more than a mealy-mouthed rendition of what's going on in the real world, lazily copied-and-pasted from today's headlines.
 
I never knew I would enjoy a purely political episode that much.

Yeah, this was pretty sophisticated writing for a kid's show! Is the target market really going to sit still for talk of interest rates and caucuses, and for the big payoff at the end being a rousing political speech?

If the 6-11 age group likes this stuff, I've been selling the younger generation short. Even if they don't understand everything and are just in it for the fights and chases, it's nice to think that something might be rubbing off.

It's true... this series is going places Lucas would never dream of ( it's probably a generational thing ). Like Padme and everyone else blowing off a supposedly neutral party's collusion with the CIS. Like Padme having no idea what's going on with her own handmaiden. Like Gunray not being the leader of the Trade Federation. Like five million troops threatening to bankrupt an economy while social services for trillions supposedly won't result in the same outcome. Like the writers acting as if the word "separatist" means absolutely nothing and not figuring out that "peace with the Republic" from the separatist POV means the Republic losing the war and voluntarily giving up half its territory. Like the politics being nothing more than a mealy-mouthed rendition of what's going on in the real world, lazily copied-and-pasted from today's headlines.

Fortunately, I don't give a flying frak about any of that. :rommie: I still don't get what you think "separatist" is suppoed to mean - how about an explanation? And I'm wondering if this really is "ripped from the headlines," since I've been expecting a lefty parable and now they seem to be going for a more right-wing paranoid fantasy about the UN turning into an oppressive force, and all the planets of the Republic are analogous to nations, who were foolish to allow the UN so much control. That analogy might be unintentional, but the fact that it's getting muddled is good - I don't like clumsy direct parallels, and prefer the DS9 approach where things seem resonant, but you're not exactly sure how.

And I never thought I'd be comparing Star Wars to DS9.
 
The situation, as described in Clone Wars, gives palpatine control over the Republic Senate and the clones, but relatively little influence over the Separatist 'Senate'.

The question is - after he turned the Republic into an Empire and killed all the Jedi, how did he have the means to turn off all the droids, how did he know where the separatist leaders are?
Were the separatists stupid enough to put their entire army under the complete control of Grievous, who gave the control codes to Dooku/Palpatine? Stupid enough to inform Palpatine of their unguarded whereabouts?

The separatists had no reason to stop fighting an empire that evolved out of a corrupted republic they left. Indeed, this development would only motivate them more.
 
I still don't get what you think "separatist" is suppoed to mean - how about an explanation?

As they used to say in Prego ads, "it's in there".

Fortunately, I don't give a flying frak about any of that.

Convenient, because the allegedly "vastly better" writing is in fact increasingly brain-dead.

Having difficulty coming up with coherent arguments? :rommie:

Apparently the Separatists should have more to do with spaghetti sauce. Gotcha.

The question is - after he turned the Republic into an Empire and killed all the Jedi, how did he have the means to turn off all the droids, how did he know where the separatist leaders are?
He wouldn't have known, not if the Seppys had any sense. That's why I like the notion that some of them survived and joined the Rebels. After all, they were right about the Republic being dangerous and corrupt. Their mistake was in accepting the leadership of a Sith, but hey, maybe they didn't believe that the Sith were all bad, since the Jedi were proving themselves to be far from all good, what with blindly serving a corrupt and dangerous Republic that was teetering into the edge of Empire-hood right under their clueless noses. I wouldn't have trusted Jedi propaganda regarding the "evil" Sith, either!
Were the separatists stupid enough to put their entire army under the complete control of Grievous, who gave the control codes to Dooku/Palpatine? Stupid enough to inform Palpatine of their unguarded whereabouts?
All the good guys in this story are acting pretty naive, but I guess we have to chalk it up to so many eons of peace. Maybe they just don't know what war is like? At the beginning of the American Civil War, both sides were "certain" that the other side would quickly give up, being "obviously" wrong, and people brought picnic baskets to watch the battles. And that was only after 50 years of peace.

The separatists had no reason to stop fighting an empire that evolved out of a corrupted republic they left. Indeed, this development would only motivate them more.
Exactamundo.
 
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