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Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

Temis the Vorta said:
Could be, but that's another ambiguous case. I'd just like something definite - the Republic is rotten, clones aren't regarded as equal to real people, etc.

As would I, but "living being" as opposed to "human being" seems to be as close as they're willing to get on that.

Ashoka teaching some random kids on a random Neutral planet :rolleyes:.

Mandalore...random...planet?! Dude, Mandalore has several thousand years of history in the SW universe. It's the native culture of Boba and Jango Fett, among others. It's been many things over the years, but random it is not. Given the whole Death Watch situation it's not likely to stay neutral for long, either.
 
Temis the Vorta said:
Could be, but that's another ambiguous case. I'd just like something definite - the Republic is rotten, clones aren't regarded as equal to real people, etc.

As would I, but "living being" as opposed to "human being" seems to be as close as they're willing to get on that.

Ashoka teaching some random kids on a random Neutral planet :rolleyes:.

Mandalore...random...planet?! Dude, Mandalore has several thousand years of history in the SW universe. It's the native culture of Boba and Jango Fett, among others. It's been many things over the years, but random it is not. Given the whole Death Watch situation it's not likely to stay neutral for long, either.

In connection to the War (remember... this show is called THE CLONE 'WARS'), it is a random and neutral planet.
It like DS) would jump to the Delta Quadrant and tell a story of stomach-sick young children on a Hirogen ship. It simply has nothing to do with the big overall arc.
 
Temis the Vorta said:
Could be, but that's another ambiguous case. I'd just like something definite - the Republic is rotten, clones aren't regarded as equal to real people, etc.

As would I, but "living being" as opposed to "human being" seems to be as close as they're willing to get on that.

Ashoka teaching some random kids on a random Neutral planet :rolleyes:.

Mandalore...random...planet?! Dude, Mandalore has several thousand years of history in the SW universe. It's the native culture of Boba and Jango Fett, among others. It's been many things over the years, but random it is not. Given the whole Death Watch situation it's not likely to stay neutral for long, either.

In connection to the War (remember... this show is called THE CLONE 'WARS'), it is a random and neutral planet.
It like DS) would jump to the Delta Quadrant and tell a story of stomach-sick young children on a Hirogen ship. It simply has nothing to do with the big overall arc.
All the systems under the Republic have a part in the over all story. Not to mention the intimate connection between the Dutchess and Obi-Wan, especially since the Jedi rule is to have no romantic ties to anyone. What they've been telling Anakin he couldn't have, Obi-Wan already did. It plays into Anakin believing the Jedi are hypocrites. How does that not factor in?
 
Those two episodes simply didn't. It was an internal Mandalorian problem, with appearantly no connection to the greater conflict.
Now of course, if Dooku orchestrated the whole affair it would be different, but no connection was (yet) made to the Seperatists.
Unlike the Mandalorian Trilogy in Season 2, the 2 Mandalorian episodes in Season 3 simply were... let me say meaningless.
 
Those two episodes simply didn't. It was an internal Mandalorian problem, with appearantly no connection to the greater conflict.
And what was it that caused the problems (black market corruption) on Mandalore? Their decision to stay neutral in the Clone Wars. Those season three episodes took a specific look at how not even "neutrality" is a guarantee of safety in a time of war. Whether or not those episodes were as entertaining or as well made as their predecessors is, of course, up to the individual viewer. But the events on Mandalore were a consequence of the Clone Wars. To say that were was "no connection to the greater conflict" is erroneous.
 
Those two episodes simply didn't. It was an internal Mandalorian problem, with appearantly no connection to the greater conflict.
And what was it that caused the problems (black market corruption) on Mandalore? Their decision to stay neutral in the Clone Wars. Those season three episodes took a specific look at how not even "neutrality" is a guarantee of safety in a time of war. Whether or not those episodes were as entertaining or as well made as their predecessors is, of course, up to the individual viewer. But the events on Mandalore were a consequence of the Clone Wars. To say that were was "no connection to the greater conflict" is erroneous.
:bolian:
 
Those two episodes simply didn't. It was an internal Mandalorian problem, with appearantly no connection to the greater conflict.
And what was it that caused the problems (black market corruption) on Mandalore? Their decision to stay neutral in the Clone Wars. Those season three episodes took a specific look at how not even "neutrality" is a guarantee of safety in a time of war. Whether or not those episodes were as entertaining or as well made as their predecessors is, of course, up to the individual viewer. But the events on Mandalore were a consequence of the Clone Wars. To say that were was "no connection to the greater conflict" is erroneous.

Interesting input... thanks for that. I will have to watch those episodes again, and keep that in mind! :bolian:
 
Oook, okay, I see what the problem is with some of the episodes in S3 - corruption, taxation and tainted kiddie drinks just aren't all that interesting unless there are interesting ideas behind them. If they're handled in a generic way, the result is paaaaainfully boring.

Star Trek can do politics interestingly, but Star Wars just doesn't have the knack. Maybe it shouldn't be trying. Star Trek is complex, Star Wars is simple - and to do a good, strong, simple story can be a big challenge, so I don't discount the value at all.

Ever since the beginning of the PT (and not counting novels, comcs, etc), Star Wars has been trying to add some Trekkian complexity to its cosmos, and so far, it's been a failed experiment. Maybe Clone Wars will finally change this track record, but the evidence to date tells me that I think they should have stuck with the original notion of Star Wars as a grand saga built around the very simple idea of Good vs. Evil.

Don't start implying that the Jedi might be kind of corrupt just like the Sith. Don't drag in real-world political metaphors or build the story around politics or (ugh) economics. Make the core story an internal struggle as Jedi are forced to confront their own dark sides, not because of their psychological makeup or in response to a crumbling Republic, but because the inherent nature of life is a balance between Good and Evil, and mere humans will never be able to avoid the struggle and occasionally fail because that is the tragic nature of the cosmos, even if they can never accept that.

So far, what Clone Wars isn't delivering is any sense that there's something grand and epic to the very idea of the Force. We have a grand and epic war, sure, but even that isn't very grand or epic since we know it's all a fraud and the participants (except for Palps) are chumps. It's high time we had more mythology built around the mystical or even theological aspects of the Force (light side and dark side alike). So far we've seen that it's a handy tool to use when swinging around a lightsaber. But it's gotta be a lot more than just that.

But I keep going, thinking the next episode will give me the Star Wars I am looking for. Next up, the one where Ahsoka teaches school...
Well, more to the point, Lucas had to use clones somehow because he'd used the term "Clone Wars" as a throwaway reference back in A New Hope
There are other ways to explain the term. Have the bad guys be the ones doing the cloning of soldiers or have the clones be slaves who are the source of the conflict but not combatants. Either would have been better options. I particularly like having clones being the reason for the war, just so nobody even needs to discuss taxes or trade routes.

But I think that when the time came along to do the prequels, Lucas had other issues that he was more interested in exploring, commentaries he wanted to make on the real world, and so the whole "clone" thing became something of an afterthought, a reference he was stuck with using somehow but wasn't really all that invested in.
Lucas should have left the political metaphors to Star Trek. I think the trouble is, he just isn't very good at that type of writing. I can't even tell what he's driving at - I see things that seem like they're reprehensible that are treated matter-of-factly, and I wonder if this society simply doesn't have the same values that we do.

Maybe they honestly don't regard clones as equal to other sentients, or regard torture as immoral. In the real world, using children as combatants is a war crime, but in Star Wars, nobody minds if Ahsoka and other adolescents risk their necks on a daily basis, besides being far too young to give informed consent about it. If I can't even tell what the ground rules are, then analogies are built on shifting sand. Maybe they're there, maybe I'm just imagining things. It might be more interesting if the "good guys" in Star Wars really don't have the same default values I do, but in that case, political metaphors become untenable.

Well, seeing as how the clone army turned on the Jedi and murdered them all in ROTS, I don't think he was.
The clones didn't murder the Jedi because they were angry at being oppressed by the Jedi or the system the Jedi represented, but because Palps programmed them to. The former would have carried the analogy through properly; the latter just sidesteps the analogy because it's a plot contrivance that has no real-world resonance. The Jedi were never portrayed as anything but moral and upstanding in the PT, and Clone Wars is continuing that theme pretty consistently.

If Lucas wants us to believe the Jedi are evil and corrupt, he's going to have to be a bit more up front about it. Even when Mace, Obi-Wan and Anakin in effect tortured Cad Bane (and risked turning him into a vegetable), I got no sense that the writers/producers wanted me to disapprove of this behavior. It was presented matter-of-factly, and the heroes were in no way punished for what they did.
As far as the movies were concerned, I think Lucas saw the clones as being little different from the droids -- programmed cannon fodder. The portrayal of the clones as individuals is more a product of the current TV series.
Either way, it's a crime against humanity (but I'm not sure which portrayal is the bigger crime).

TCW is in kind of an awkward position, because they have a lot of moral ambiguity in their premise -- their main "hero" Anakin being a murderer and future genocidal monster, their "heroic" clone troopers being a ticking time bomb whose very creation is ethically questionable -- but they can't really address it within the format of an adventure cartoon about heroes versus villains.
That really is the essential problem. Are we seeing an adventure for children, in which case we shouldn't worry about any moral implications of clones or child soldiers, and therefore political analogies are impossible (because the moral universe presented is too far off base from our own) or are we seeing a story intended for adults, in which case poltical analogies are possible, and we can also have grownup complexity involving politics and economics, but care needs to be taken not to accidentally present these people as being morally culpable, which I'm pretty sure is happening through sheer carelessness.

The only ambiguity in the premise that they couldn't avoid is having a future psycho be the main character. But it could still work okay as a child's story or an adult's - kids won't mind what Anakin does later as long as he's cool today, and adults can enjoy the entire saga as a tragic tale of hubris gone horribly wrong. But they need to jump one way or the other, and stop muddling around in the middle. And Anakin isn't "ambiguous" as long as you have a viewpoint about him and use the story to express that viewpoint.

Not to mention the intimate connection between the Dutchess and Obi-Wan, especially since the Jedi rule is to have no romantic ties to anyone. What they've been telling Anakin he couldn't have, Obi-Wan already did. It plays into Anakin believing the Jedi are hypocrites. How does that not factor in?
I don't see how Anakin could regard Obi-Wan as a hypocrite since he gave up having a relationship with Satine in favor of the Jedi - or, if he had chosen Satine, would have left the Jedi Order (and I wonder if Anakin overheard that conversation). That's exactly how a Jedi should do it - choose one or the other. Anakin refuses to choose. More likely, I think Anakin might regard the Jedi as stupid old nannies who make up rules needlessly. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that there's any value to avoiding attachment, so why should he feel it applies to him? Or maybe he thinks he's such hot shit that he's a special case.
 
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^ I disagree
I don't find Star Wars handles politics poorly, they're just doing it in a way both adult and child can enjoy. Remember, Star Wars unlike Star Trek is geared for a much broader audience. Trek refuses to address their own politics and what really caused utopian peace on Earth. I think we the audience believed in the good vs, evil of Star Wars because we never stopped to ask, why are they good or why are they evil? For example: we accept Han Solo as a good but never explored or asked why was he a criminal first. We seem to ignore that aspect of his character completely. We don't ask was he good or did he just join the rebels to gold dig from Leia? We never asked what made Tarkin who he was to the Empire? What was it about him that made Vader obey? Clone Wars is doing something Trek is afraid too, explaining to us why it's citizens of a a government that gave them peace for a centuries would want to leave it. I think we're used to thinking of only the mythology and not beyond it.
 
I don't find the politics in Star Wars realistic enough to be believable or interesting. The political bad guys (not the Sith, since I don't see them as political) are just in it for money, and that's boring. Maybe Clone Wars can start developing the Seppys a bit better but so far, they're just plot conveniences.

Clone Wars is doing something Trek is afraid too, explaining to us why it's citizens of a a government that gave them peace for a centuries would want to leave it.

That must be in an episode I haven't seen yet because other than just being greedy bastards, I haven't seen any explanation.
 
I don't find the politics in Star Wars realistic enough to be believable or interesting. The political bad guys (not the Sith, since I don't see them as political) are just in it for money, and that's boring. Maybe Clone Wars can start developing the Seppys a bit better but so far, they're just plot conveniences.

Last week's episode "Heroes on Both Sides" dealt with exactly that subject. I think the S3 Mandalore episodes (in addition to being an obvious government regulation/anti-corruption polemic) and the other politics episodes this season, including the most recent one, are setting us up for something. We've gotten a tremendous amount of background information on the political system (and the "economics of politics" as Anakin put it in AotC) this season, and I can't imagine they're telling us all this just to go back to Anakin and Ahsoka cutting up droids every week after they're through. I know Lucas is interested in how democracies willingly turn themselves into dictatorships (he cites Germany and Rome for inspiration on that), I think at minimum we're going to see a far expanded take on that than what we got in the prequels, which will presumably lead up to the Jedi and Padme/Bail/Mon Mothma realizing something is up with him by the time RotS rolls around.
 
I'd like to nominate Temis' mini-essay above for post of the month! :bolian:

Ever since the beginning of the PT (and not counting novels, comcs, etc), Star Wars has been trying to add some Trekkian complexity to its cosmos, and so far, it's been a failed experiment. Maybe Clone Wars will finally change this track record, but the evidence to date tells me that I think they should have stuck with the original notion of Star Wars as a grand saga built around the very simple idea of Good vs. Evil.
Indeed. IMHO, all most of us really wanted from the PT was big-ass saber fights. Palps cloning Sith and throwing them, as well as evil clone troopers, against the Jedi and conscripted armies from throughout the Republic, would have been a less complex but ultimately far better route.


Are we seeing an adventure for children, in which case we shouldn't worry about any moral implications of clones or child soldiers, and therefore political analogies are impossible (because the moral universe presented is too far off base from our own) or are we seeing a story intended for adults, in which case poltical analogies are possible, and we can also have grownup complexity involving politics and economics, but care needs to be taken not to accidentally present these people as being morally culpable, which I'm pretty sure is happening through sheer carelessness.
QFT. I think what we're really seeing is a merchandising machine run amuck: Lucas did the PT, but half-assedly, more as a way of keeping himself busy and entertained for a few years than because he felt compelled to tell any particular sort of story. When ROTS was released, IIRC, he pretty much said he was done with the franchise.

But it turns out that a new generation of young fans can still be exploited, so Lucas hires a couple guys to make a show that'll keep the franchise alive on everyone's radar. Its main purpose is to keep kids buying all sorts of SW stuff, from toys to video games to school backpacks, but since the writers don't have to fight for ratings or job security, the brand name and source material doing that heavy lifting for them, they're permitted and even encouraged to wander off on all sorts of tangents, relevance to Anakin's long-term story be damned.

What are they trying to say? What story are they ultimately telling? Who cares, so long as the money flows?

I wouldn't let a young child of mine waste his time on this show; I'd far rather watch Trek dvds with him. Nor do I watch the show myself, for all the above reasons and more. Say what you like about Trek, but even at its most commercially banal (ex: ST XI), the fundamental values of peaceful discovery and responsibility nearly always come through loud and clear (cough, Endgame, cough).

As Temis notes, OT Wars is a good vs. evil fairytale. But this new stuff is mere sound and fury, signifying nothing.

OT Obi-Wan and Yoda, I think, would not approve. And Han would just roll his eyes and leave the room. Speaking of which...

For example: we accept Han Solo as a good but never explored or asked why was he a criminal first. We seem to ignore that aspect of his character completely. We don't ask was he good or did he just join the rebels to gold dig from Leia?
Given the Nazi-like humans-only context of the Empire, Han's friendship with Chewie heavily implies that he's above-par in terms of galactic morality. So he's a smuggler, and? There's no indication that he smuggles weapons or anything similarly harmful. And he shoots Greedo in pure self-defense, even before Lucas' SE meddling. No, it won't at all do to compare Han with PT-era Jedi; sorry, try again. ;)
 
I also have to disagree. The politics in SW are handled well. Especially in the prequels (you have to watch the films twice at least to get an idea of the conspiracy Palpatine/Sidious set in motion) and also in the series. The last episode shows they can do it right, the political episodes of second season were also good.

The problem with the prequels is, that people probably expected films like the OT (the Thrawn Trilogy did simply copy and paste the plots of the OT and is considered among many the best book trilogy in the EU), but Lucas chose to change the pace completely.
I love the prequels as much as I love the OT since they really tell one big story, but I can fully understand people who cannot warm up to them.
Maybe they should read "Cloak of Deception" and "Labyrinth of Evil". Those two book really add depth to the prequel trilogy explain a lot, and you will be able to understand a lot more.
 
Politics has been with Star Wars from the beginning. Or are we forgetting the back-and-forth arguments about the senate in the original movies?
 
I don't find the politics in Star Wars realistic enough to be believable or interesting. The political bad guys (not the Sith, since I don't see them as political) are just in it for money, and that's boring.
Yeah, they're corporations.
That's what they do.
The Sith are political.
They're the ones egging on the corporations and the ones pulling the strings behind the war to begin with.
Sidious' whole point is to control the galaxy through controlling the Republic.
The start of New Hope and Tarkin's role is nothing but political.

However, you're argument seems conflicted a little too me.
One minute I see you saying is not realistic enough, while another time your asking for more mythology.
 
Given the Nazi-like humans-only context of the Empire, Han's friendship with Chewie heavily implies that he's above-par in terms of galactic morality. So he's a smuggler, and? There's no indication that he smuggles weapons or anything similarly harmful. And he shoots Greedo in pure self-defense, even before Lucas' SE meddling. No, it won't at all do to compare Han with PT-era Jedi; sorry, try again. ;)
Yes, I forgot only good honest people work for gangsters and the transporting of goods illegally is only bad if it's harmful material. Allow me to go down to Cuba and bring back some cigars.:rolleyes:

Greedo was never going to harm Han, he was only sent to bring him a message that Jabba was expecting his money. Even Boba Fett tells Vader in "Empire" that the bounty on Han was no good if Han was dead. Pay attention.;)
 
This season really isn't all that bad - the four episodes focusing on corruption were a bore but I think that's due to the dull topic that was chosen. Otherwise, the episodes are about as good as S2 and better than S1, when there were too many war-centric episodes.

"Assassin" was very good and the relationship between Padme and Ahsoka was very well written and nice, even if I was hoping that the visions would turn out to be more interesting than wasserface (someday I'll remember everyone's names :D) inexplicably surviving a HUGE crash (dragged from the wreckage my Vorta ass).

I also liked the episode about the droid spa, which was creatively visualized. Even when the episodes aren't up to par, the excellent animation and music keep me interested. They do a very good job of reworking John Williams' themes (I particularly like the drum-heavy revision of the main theme, which I've always found to be kinda pompous and uninteresting, that they use for the menu screen on the DVDs). They're coming up with new themes to add that don't sound like faux-Williams but are completely different yet fit in perfectly, such as the Andean-flute themes they use every so often.

My favorite visuals so far are Mandalore; the underworld of Coruscant (especially the scene when Ahsoka and Master Plo were descending thru the huge tunnel); and the Zilo Beast episodes.

Last week's episode "Heroes on Both Sides" dealt with exactly that subject. I think the S3 Mandalore episodes (in addition to being an obvious government regulation/anti-corruption polemic) and the other politics episodes this season, including the most recent one, are setting us up for something.
I'll be getting around to that one tonight before I leave for Turkey Day festivities - hopefully at long last this series might be getting into the kind of development that the story really needs.
I know Lucas is interested in how democracies willingly turn themselves into dictatorships (he cites Germany and Rome for inspiration on that),
That's a good topic and since Lucas is now working with some smart writers, maybe it can be explored better than it was in the PT. But if he's really going for the political metaphor, then I'll have to assume that the Republic is something we would agree is a "republic" and it's not what I've been suspecting, just a word that these weird aliens are using for a political system that doesn't really map to our values. I'll just accept that unsettling weirdness like the clone cannon fodder and underage warriors don't disqualify the Republic from being analogous to our own political system, as long as the writing is reasonably sharp otherwise.

I'd like to nominate Temis' mini-essay above for post of the month! :bolian:
Thank you, but I think that qualifies as a full fledged essay. Even I was cringing at how damn long it was by the time I got done ranting. :rommie:
Yeah, they're corporations.
That's what they do.
I don't dispute that it's realistic. I just don't find it interesting.

The Sith are political.
They're the ones egging on the corporations and the ones pulling the strings behind the war to begin with.
The Sith are not being political for its own sake, but to expand their ideology of Dark Side-ism. I see the bad guys as having two different motivations: the political manipulators who want to expand their power to get money (the corporations); and the Sith, who want to expand their power for ideological or even metaphysical reasons. They don't want power in order to enrich themselves (they aren't that petty!) so why do they want power? Because they are Sith and they want power for its own sake. Power is a sort of ideology for them.

Which gets right back around to my problem that the grander, metaphysical level of this story, which is what the core of the story should be, is being ignored. This should be an ideological battle between Jedi and Sith, both of which seek power and control for its own sake.

The fight has real-world political ramifications for the non-Force users as well. Some "normals" will side with the Sith because crass benefits like money will trickle down to them. Other "normals" side with the Jedi in the hopes that the benefits will be defense of their democratic way of life.

The normals should be riding the coattails of the core ideological conflict. It's good to have episodes that deal with the trickle-down benefits - the corporations are doing this, the Republic is doing that - but where are the episodes about what the fight is really about? The fight appears to be really about corrupt corporations vs. noble liberal democrats, and the Sith and the Jedi are simply supporting one side or the other. They've got it completely backwards!

One minute I see you saying is not realistic enough, while another time your asking for more mythology.
That's because I'm talking about two different possible approaches: to discard the idea of being a kiddie show and really go for the Star Trek style political metaphor, and do it in a more sophisticated manner than it has been done so far; or to embrace the idea of being a kiddie show and discard the political metaphor, which is something that's intended for adults anyway. Even adults can enjoy a really well-made fairy tale about an epic conflict of Good vs. Evil. After all, that's what the OT was.

If I had to choose, I'd go for the second approach because it's consistent with the need to sell plastic crap at Toys R Us, and I know that motive will never vanish (making it hilariously hypocritical that Lucas thinks he can wag his finger at "greedy" corporations, what does he think he's running? :rommie:) but more importantly, it taps into what makes Star Wars unique. I'd also enjoy the Star Trek approach but it would be kinda sad to see Star Wars lose its identity and just become yet another Star Trek wannabee.

But it really does need to be one or the other. Both the PT and TCW suffer from having two conflicting agendas.

Maybe they should read "Cloak of Deception" and "Labyrinth of Evil". Those two book really add depth to the prequel trilogy explain a lot, and you will be able to understand a lot more.
Sorry, I've learned to ignore this kind of advice (and not just in the case of Star Wars) because 1) I invariably find out the fill-in-the-blank stories don't live up to their billing and 2) if something is an important part of a story, it should be in the story. Why should I read a book to understand a movie or TV show? All necessary elements should be in the movie or TV show. I'm not going to jump through a lot of hoops just because a writer is too lazy to rewrite his story until it actually works in the medium it's intended for.
Politics has been with Star Wars from the beginning. Or are we forgetting the back-and-forth arguments about the senate in the original movies?

Politics has existed at a subordinate level, but the core story of the OT was about the metaphysical story of what it means to be a Force user. The three OT movies at their core are: Luke learning to trust his ability to use the Force; Luke realizing that his blithe assumptions about the Force - that he can be an automatic good guy no matter what - are wrong, when he finds out that wasn't true for dear old dad either; and Luke learning to forgive his father and find the "true meaning" of the Force in greater wisdom. That's an intensely personal story, with all the space battles, swashbuckling and politics just serving as the backdrop.

Which is just a long winded way of saying that Star Wars works best when it is personal and not political. The PT should be the personal, interior story of Anakin the way the OT was the personal, interior story of Luke. Which is why above all I get frustrated when Anakin is mischaracterized (in the PT, as someone whose personal, interior story is too stupid to form the basis of any decent story) or characterized only on the surface (in TCW, where he is the kind of character whose interior story could be worthwhile, but we're really not getting that story).
 
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I really think you should check out the books and comics Temis, they get into alot of the kind of stuff you seem to be wanting.
 
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