Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[lennier1]

Transport fees, taxes, ...
It almost feels like the conflicts in the prequel trilogy are determined by the IRS!

But you have to feel sorry for Ahsoka. She's picking up way too many bad habits from Obi-Wan and Anakin.

 

[DarthPipes]

It was a good episode and the politics were interesting to see. I think this episode impressed me most on a visual level. The different (and beautiful) environments and moods really told the story wonderfully. If that makes sense.

Loved the design of the Seperatist Senate. I take it they were trying to go a little British in design there?

Good tension between Anakin and Padme here. The Padme/Ahsoka relationship has been a nice development and I got a laugh when Ahsoka talked about how much Anakin and Padme have in common.

Great new character designs for Anakin and Ahsoka.

 

[Mr Light]

Oh that reminds me, the ending where the lights go out in the Senate Building and the sirens run and everyone freaks out... while it's ridiculous that with futuristic SW tech taking out one generator would black out the entire area, that was a highly effective scene. Well made. Also good was the scene where the Decepticons mercilessly murder an entire room full of engineers.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ Reminiscent of the Rebel assault on the power generator in ROTJ, too. Also interesting was seeing Ahsoka specifically refer to her physical attractiveness while talking to the young man on the Separatist planet. It's not overly blatant, but it seems as though the series isn't completely ignoring sexuality after all.

 

[JD]

I liked this one, it actually gave us some pretty interesting insight into the non-military side of the Separatists. Really like the new character models, especially Ahsoka. I'm curious to see if Yoda, and Mace and the other recurring characters will look different next time we see them.

 

[Basill]

Oh that reminds me, the ending where the lights go out in the Senate Building and the sirens run and everyone freaks out... while it's ridiculous that with futuristic SW tech taking out one generator would black out the entire area, that was a highly effective scene. Well made. Also good was the scene where the Decepticons mercilessly murder an entire room full of engineers.

Well, it was pretty big explosion and even futuristic SW tech gets old (after all that was a long long time ago ). Still, haven't there been similar "cascading" black outs affecting huge regions from seemingly limited incidents here on Earth? The 2003 Black Out comes to mind. Perhaps this highlights the Republic's aged and weakened infrastructure and is yet another symptom of the downward spiral we are supposed to be witnessing.

Also, those droids were there for a good while weren't they? Are they the ones that planted bombs all about the Senate city area or was that some sort of surge overload thing and resulting fires/riots that happened afterward?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Playing catchup, I've finally made it to S3, and the dreaded "crappy" episodes I've heard so much about. After seeing the first two episodes of the season, I'd say they're one for two.

Clone Cadets - Clone-centric episodes are never very interesting for me, the clones just don't come alive as individual characters (little Boba Fett however is another story). The adult Jedi of Ahsoka's species who lectures the Kaminoan about morality, yeesh, how can the Jedi think that manufacturing humans as cannon fodder is anything but horrifically immoral?

The Republic and Separatists should switch roles, with the nasty Separatists being the ones using clones as cannon fodder and the Republic opting for a droid army so as to spare their citizens from the horrors of war (except for the Jedi, but they can handle themselves pretty well). Unless the intent is to depict the Republic as hypocritical and corrupt, which I've been watching for, but so far it seems like the intent is to portray the Republic as essentially noble with only a few understandable defects.

Arc Troopers - So those guys were supposed to be the same group as the guys on the moon in S1? That just goes to show how the clones' individual identities just don't stick in my mind, I had no idea I was seeing the backstory of characters I'd seen before, or why I should care.

But it was nice seeing some good strategy from Grevious/Ventress, using debris from a battle as a cover for an invasion, don't recall seeing that before. Once again, Obi-Wan demonstrates his perceptiveness (even though it didn't seem to help him later suss out the incipient Sith right under his nose, oh well). Nice battle sequences, the Anakin-Ventress fight was especially badass.

Next up...Jar Jar...ech, can I just skip that one?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

If it's any consolation, Jar Jar has nothing to do with "Supply Lines" being a terrible episode. Count up how much time is spent by characters either a) standing (or sitting) and repeating what has to get accomplished (that thar planet needs supplies!) or b) having a debate that is, essentially, negated a scene later.

 

[DarthPipes]

I always found the clones to be very compelling and the ethical implications are fascinating. I agree that creating a clone army for cannon fodder is immoral.

Also, in Season 1, a clone admits that he betrayed his brother because he wanted freedom. I really thought that would have struck a chord with Anakin, who was a slave. The fact that they haven't had Anakin in the least bit concerned about this is a gigantic missed opportunity so far.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I always found the clones to be very compelling and the ethical implications are fascinating. I agree that creating a clone army for cannon fodder is immoral.

Also, in Season 1, a clone admits that he betrayed his brother because he wanted freedom. I really thought that would have struck a chord with Anakin, who was a slave. The fact that they haven't had Anakin in the least bit concerned about this is a gigantic missed opportunity so far.

I'd find the clones a lot more interesting if I thought there was any chance these ideas would be followed up on, but I'm now thinking that this is just too radical of an upending of the Star Wars universe and it'll never happen. The Jedi and the Republic are intended to be depicted as morally upstanding and correct, with only minor deficiencies. So every time I see one of those dagnabit clones, I get frustrated and annoyed all over again! If their story is never going to be pursued to any interesting conclusion, I wish they would just stay in the background and not even talk.

(And I also find it creepy that a story so morally autistic is intended primarily for children - ewgh! What kind of message are they getting with all this violence and unexamined disrespect for human rights?)

Because of this, I found Boba Fett in those late-S2 episodes to be very sympathetic (maybe moreso than was intended). He's wrong to be angry only at Mace Windu - the larger system is to blame for his father's death, the way the Jedi are allowed to orphan children and just walk away from the situation. The kid was left to be raised by bounty hunters, what did the Jedi think would happen? Hopefully they'll take steps to correct their mistake now, and not just toss Boba into kiddie prison.

And speaking of that, when Master Plo tells the bartender in the "underworld" bar how much the Jedi cares about the common citizens of the Republic, I wanted the guy to slug him or at least try. Hah, I'll bet they care. When was the last time some high and mighty Jedi deigned to visit the underworld? They show up when it suits their agenda but it's out of sight, out of mind otherwise.

There was never any need for Order 66 or brainwashed clones in this story. The way the Jedi are depicted as being out of touch with the common folk of the Republic, off pursuing their own agendas and oblivious to the chaos they create, I'd readily believe that Palps could have turned the whole society against the Jedi, including a military made up of normal, unbrainwashed people. That would have been a far more compelling story, and less contrived.

I really thought that would have struck a chord with Anakin, who was a slave.

As of this point, Anakin seems to be interested only in power. That's the only common thread I can discern in his motivations. He fights for the Republic and then he fights for the Empire, so he doesn't actually care about the politics of either. He doesn't care about ethics, since he was willing to kill the Zilo Beast in defiance of legitimate Jedi ethics, for the good of maintaining Republic power.

He may rant about politics, but to him politics is just whatever gets him the most power - ideology doesn't factor into it. So his arguments with Padme, who does have ideological beliefs, is just apples and oranges.

I don't mind this, since I've long thought that the best way to get Anakin's story to work is to jettison all other motives and make him someone who loves power and freedom of action. He loves to fly, fight, improvise, defy orders and defy authority unless he realizes that authority will get him more power. The minute he realizes that, he suddenly becomes a lot more obedient than you'd expect from someone who is otherwise disinclined to play by anyone's rules but his own.

That's the only way to explain how someone who routinely thumbs his nose at the Jedi Council so quickly falls under Palps' spell (unless the motivation is egotism and love of flattery, combined with sheer stupidity but that's too petty and contemptible so I sure hope it isn't that - also he hasn't shown susceptibility to flattery or lack of intelligence in other ways, so it's also not plausible.) None of this is necessarily related to his fear of loss or his inability to squelch attachment to people. His real problem is an inability to squelch attachment to power, but I wonder if all the Jedi have that problem.

 

[DarthPipes]

About the Zilo beast, the idea of bring it to Coruscant was a complete disaster. I don't even know what Palpatine was thinking on that one. How he thought that would benefit him (the man who ordered the beast to be brought to Coruscant) is an idea I find baffling. I see what you're saying about the Jedi committment to life but that beast had to be put down once it broke loose on Coruscant. It should never have been on Coruscant in the first place.

I suspect Boba managed to evade the Jedi on Geonosis. You are right though that the Jedi should have made an effort to help him. Jango put himself into the battle on Geonois and Mace cut him down. Completely legitimate.

Mace telling Boba "tough" when they threw him into jail seemed unsympathetic to me but then again Boba tried to kill him and a few others. Got at least one clone killed too.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I see what you're saying about the Jedi committment to life but that beast had to be put down once it broke loose on Coruscant. It should never have been on Coruscant in the first place.

Mace did have some planet in mind where it could be allowed to live in freedom, which seemed an overly convenient solution. Would the Zilo Beast fit into the ecosystem of the new planet? It appears to be a carnivore - what the heck was it eating underground all those years? What would happen when it was separated from its natural food supply?

Anyway, before it was taken to Coruscant, there was an ethical solution, however unlikely. Presumably Palps took it to Coruscant because he didn't trust scientists anywhere else.

And if Palps weren't considered a disasterously incompetent old fool before, he certainly should be after that incident, getting who knows how many people killed! Why aren't the Jedi agitating for his removal? Maybe they don't like to meddle in politics, but Palps' apparent stupidity is simply beyond endurance. Everyone should be after him now.

 

[cylkoth]

Clone Cadets - Clone-centric episodes are never very interesting for me, the clones just don't come alive as individual characters (little Boba Fett however is another story). The adult Jedi of Ahsoka's species who lectures the Kaminoan about morality, yeesh, how can the Jedi think that manufacturing humans as cannon fodder is anything but horrifically immoral?

This. A recent showing of The (movie) Clone Wars, where Obi Wan gets the grand tour of the cloning facility, reminded me that they aren't just clones, but are genetically altered to be docile. I'd forgotten about that, since it's never ben brought up in the series. So, not only are they cooking up batches of sentient beings for use as cannon fodder in a war they aren't allowed to decide if they even want to participate in, they're made to be subservient to the 'normals' who made them.
And yet, we're supposed to cheer for the Jedi/Republic?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

they aren't just clones, but are genetically altered to be docile.

By docile, I assume you mean obedient/not as prone to think for themselves rather than nonviolent? Yeah I figured something like that might be going on. Can't recall if it were stated in AOTC.

It's also creepy that the cloning is riddled with imperfection, so that it's expected that some batches will come out "wrong," and when that happens, the "defective products" are relegated to menial tasks. Hey I guess we should be happy they aren't just dumped in the ocean.

The defective clones must think that living in a tin can on a miserable, rain-soaked world is normal for everyone in the galaxy, or at least all they deserve, being subhuman and all. Where would they ever learn that there were any other options, even if anyone were inclined to give them options, which doesn't seem to be the case. Being used for cannon fodder is apparently a privilege reserved only for the elite, and a situation to be envied. Good lord, could this be any more frakked up? What, if anything, have the Sith ever done that's as sickening as this?

The creepiest part is how this is all presented in a matter of fact way, like the audience can't possibly see anything objectionable in this arrangement.

I'd love to see the story changed so that Palps doesn't put Order 66 into the clones' brains. He doesn't need to. He just removes the docility component and allows them to think and react as normal people, who will of course overthrow the oppressive and corrupt Jedi who have been responsible for such a moral outrage for years. If I were one of those clones, I'd shoot a Jedi in the back and do a victory dance on their corpse.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

By docile, I assume you mean obedient/not as prone to think for themselves rather than nonviolent? Yeah I figured something like that might be going on. Can't recall if it were stated in AOTC.

It's definitely in AOTC. The Kaminoan says something like "You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host." She even uses the word "docile" at one point to describe how the clones are different from Boba Fett.

As for the implications ... I do like how they've given the clones distinct personalities, but that also makes the premise all that much more creepy. Yeah, they've got personalities, but they are genetically obedient. You'd think that, at some point, someone in the series would object to this -- even if it were a Separatist pointing out the "morality" of leaving the Republic.

 

[lennier1]

One thing that doesn't make much sense is why the Mandalorians aren't more torn over this. After all, the Republic is burning through cloned Mandalorians like there's no tomorrow.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I do like how they've given the clones distinct personalities, but that also makes the premise all that much more creepy. Yeah, they've got personalities, but they are genetically obedient.

The personalities are all within a very narrow range, and nothing that would interfere with their military or maintenance duties, so it's not really a mitigating factor for me. They all must be very genetically manipulated to come out so similar and only rarely with the idea that there might be more to life than giving their lives for the greater glory of the Republic.
However, this might not all be genetics - or even chiefly - since they are also socialized from birth to believe that they have only one option in life.

This is a big reason why I instantly liked Boba - he was so distinctly unlike the rest of the clones, because he hadn't been genetically manipulated or socialized like the others.

A free clone, yay! I was really rooting for the kid. But then he got captured by the evil Jedi, boo! Well, I'm sure someone as smart and resourceful as he is, will quickly break free from the Jedi kiddie prison where he is being held (they're probably trying to brainwash him to be a good little clone, but he won't crack!) and continue to be a thorn in their side.

One thing that doesn't make much sense is why the Mandalorians aren't more torn over this. After all, the Republic is burning through cloned Mandalorians like there's no tomorrow.

Wow, good idea! Why the heck isn't Obi-Wan's old girlfriend up in arms about this? Boba should hightail it to Mandalore or that moon where they exiled the soldiers, since the Mandalorians per se are too pacifist to be worthwhile in the fight.

Forget hanging around with bounty hunters, he needs more powerful allies now. If anyone should be joining the Separatist cause, it's Boba.

 

[Christopher]

The Republic and Separatists should switch roles, with the nasty Separatists being the ones using clones as cannon fodder and the Republic opting for a droid army so as to spare their citizens from the horrors of war (except for the Jedi, but they can handle themselves pretty well). Unless the intent is to depict the Republic as hypocritical and corrupt, which I've been watching for, but so far it seems like the intent is to portray the Republic as essentially noble with only a few understandable defects.

Well, the Separatists using droids and the Republic using clones was established in the movies, so that's where we need to look to address questions of intent.

The intent behind giving the bad guys droid soldiers was the same as the intent behind having the Imperial Stormtroopers wear face-concealing, identical armor in the original trilogy: to dehumanize the enemy so that the good guys don't look any less good for killing them in mass numbers. With all the enemy soldiers being just dumb robots, the heroes aren't really hurting anyone and it can be nice and neat and morally simple.

The intent behind the Republic having clone soldiers is less straightforward. Basically, the important thing to remember is that the clones were Palpatine's idea. The entire Clone Wars were orchestrated by Palpatine/Sidious, who played both sides against one another in order to tear down the Republic and make himself Emperor. First he (as Sidious) encouraged the Trade Federation and the Separatists to take actions against the Republic so that he (as Palpatine) could exploit the crisis to manipulate the Senate into giving him greater and greater "emergency" powers. Then he contracted groups on both sides to build huge armies -- the Geonosians churning out the droids and the Kaminoans churning out the clones, unaware that they were both working for the same guy. The Republic probably wouldn't have approved the creation of the clones had they known, but Palps had it done in secret and then revealed them just when the Republic was desperate enough not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

See, it wasn't enough to create a powerful threat against the Republic so that he could gain power. He needed a powerful defense force that he could command, since he wouldn't gain much if he destroyed the very civilization he was trying to take over from within. And he needed that defense force to be absolutely loyal to him, so that he could make them turn against the Republic and the Jedi when it was time for him to make his move.

So the intent behind the clone army isn't to portray the entire Republic as corrupt, unless you choose to see Palpatine's evil as a symptom of societal corruption. The sad fact that tends to get overlooked is that the whole war came about because one power-hungry Sith Lord made chumps of everyone in the galaxy. Regardless of being on opposite sides, both the droids and the clones were created by Palpatine as playing pieces on his personal chess -- err, dejarik board.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The intent behind giving the bad guys droid soldiers was the same as the intent behind having the Imperial Stormtroopers wear face-concealing, identical armor in the original trilogy: to dehumanize the enemy so that the good guys don't look any less good for killing them in mass numbers. With all the enemy soldiers being just dumb robots, the heroes aren't really hurting anyone and it can be nice and neat and morally simple.

Allowing the good guys an excuse to commit mayhem is almost as creepy as the clone thing, especially because I know it's an excuse to sanitize violence for children. If you're going to make a movie series that has WAR in the title, you should be at least somewhat honest about the results of violence, not hide from it. And why is it such an issue now? When Luke blew up the Death Star, I don't recall complaints about all those poor Stormtroopers who were probably just dumbass conscripts from backwater worlds too stupid and naive to know that serving the Empire is wrong. Maybe they were just in it for the paycheck.

The intent behind the Republic having clone soldiers is less straightforward. Basically, the important thing to remember is that the clones were Palpatine's idea.... The Republic probably wouldn't have approved the creation of the clones had they known

Why should it being Palps' idea make any difference? They should disapprove because it is morally wrong. Of course they'd disapprove if they knew it was all a conspiracy against them, but that has nothing to do with morality. Their approval perversely validates Palps' conspiracy against them by proving that they're as contemptuous of individual rights as any Sith, and although it would be interesting if that had been Lucas' intent, I know it's not, so it's all just sloppy writing (and absurdly convoluted, I hope you didn't give yourself carpal tunnel syndrome typing all that out).

the Republic was desperate enough not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

If the Republic was supposed to be desperate, they needed to do a better job of conveying that, because I didn't see that at all. Was the Republic unable to recruit soldiers from its own population because it had already burned through billions slaughtered in an unending war, and faced a popular uprising of an exhausted populace? The war hadn't gone on long enough for that (it hadn't even started), and it wasn't depicted as being nearly that destructive. Why was there no dialogue among the Jedi discussing what a reprehensible thing they were doing but how they had no choice if they didn't want the Republic to fall and be replaced by something worse?

Just once, I would love some Jedi to admit that cloning people for cannon fodder is a horrible thing to do and proves that all their yammering about ethics is hypocritical horseshit. Maybe Mace Windu can be the one to say it. He was all up in arms about the Zilo Beast and he didn't even know if the dang thing was intelligent!

Practically everything about modern-day Star Wars creeps me out. I think that's part of why I like it - I'll be honest, the OT seems so vanilla to me now - even if I know what I like about it is an accident of sloppy writing and lack of thinking this stuff through.

See, it wasn't enough to create a powerful threat against the Republic so that he could gain power. He needed a powerful defense force that he could command, since he wouldn't gain much if he destroyed the very civilization he was trying to take over from within.

Considering the way the Jedi act, it wouldn't have been too hard for Palps to channel popular resentment against them into a force that would help him overthrow their elitist asses. I can particularly see a military of normal folks, with a proud longstanding tradition, being hugely resentful of having to take orders from a bunch of lightsaber wielding clowns just because they can jump around all fancy-like and throw things with their minds. Palps could have had a military on his side that he didn't need to manufacture or brainwash if he was really as clever as he was supposed to be, and more importantly, the story would have been far less convoluted and contrived.

The sad fact that tends to get overlooked is that the whole war came about because one power-hungry Sith Lord made chumps of everyone in the galaxy.

I don't overlook it that all. That's the main reason I dislike the PT - because it's a dumb story. Palps is way ahead of everyone from first to last. The good guys never even come close to beating him or even realize what game they're playing. A good story should have much more dramatic tension and give and take between the two sides so you are always wondering who's going to win (even in cases like this, where you know the outcome in advance). The PT is like watching a tennis match between a tennis pro and a toddler. Not my idea of entertainment.

Regardless of being on opposite sides, both the droids and the clones were created by Palpatine as playing pieces on his personal chess -- err, dejarik board.

Well there's a better analogy. The PT is like watching one guy play chess.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Well there's a better analogy. The PT is like watching one guy play chess.

Supreme Chancellor Palpatine aka Darth Sidious aka Dark Lord of the Sith aka the most powerful person in the universe:

Spoiler: Picture