^^ No chance that Shmi was just too embarassed to tell her little boy about that one night stand with the Jedi (sorry, no time for love and commitment, duty calls)?
Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far
- Thread starter JediKnightButler
- Start date
I've often wondered if Anakin was the result of a drunken one night stand with a Jedi or a navigator on a spice freighter.
Except that it won't. You can't negate the fact that Anakin destroyed Palpatine and ensured the survival of the Jedi Order in the form of Luke. This was supposed to be a big deal before the PT even existed.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
So - the force is not taoist after all, it's not yin/yang, good/evil in balance.
The force in balance is the force being only 'good', and evil is the 'imbalance'.
This strikes me too as a revisionist interpretation of the force.
The force in balance is the force being only 'good', and evil is the 'imbalance'.
This strikes me too as a revisionist interpretation of the force.
I watched the new episode when it first aired here last night, and it was my favorite so far this season. Lots of awesome visuals, and some very interesting concepts with the Force and Anakin's destiny. Now, I was alittle confused about what Son and Daughter were supposed to be. Were they just really really powerful Force users, or were they actually supposed to be manifestations of the two sides of the Force?
Probably my favourate episode of the Clone Wars yet. Started out with a genuinely intriguing mystery which reminded me of Star Trek a bit. People in Star Wars always seemed to know what was what, and there was never much in the way of exploration - this filled that void brilliantly just in the first 5 minutes. It was interesting and somewhat freaky, the force genuinely seemed magical as opposed to some tool the Jedi use.
As for the rest, I agree what what everyone else has said above...was great seeing "grown up" Ahsoka, and seeing Qui Gon and Shmi, however briefly was something of an event. Brilliant brilliant ep.
As for the rest, I agree what what everyone else has said above...was great seeing "grown up" Ahsoka, and seeing Qui Gon and Shmi, however briefly was something of an event. Brilliant brilliant ep.
What makes you say that? There was even a yin/yang symbol featured in this episode.
That's not balance; that's the Potentium fallacy.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Set Harth
The fact that the prophecy 'bring balance' refers to Anakin either killing the jedi in ROTS, 'leaving the force in darkness' or killing the sith in ROTJ, leaving the force in 'light'.
In either case, if one considers the force taoist, Anakin leaves the force imbalanced - NOT balanced.
If the force would be taoist, the 'bring balance' prophecy would refer to Anakin staying in the force mystical land described in the episode and maintaining the balance of the force (or something similar).
But this interpretation of the prophecy is rejected. Yes, it was like this since before this episode; the episode merely evidentiates how the candidates for fulfilling the prophecy (ROTS, ROTJ) are incompatible with a taoist force by, ironically, presenting us a taoist variant of the fulfillment of the prophecy and how different it would be.
The fact that the prophecy 'bring balance' refers to Anakin either killing the jedi in ROTS, 'leaving the force in darkness' or killing the sith in ROTJ, leaving the force in 'light'.
In either case, if one considers the force taoist, Anakin leaves the force imbalanced - NOT balanced.
If the force would be taoist, the 'bring balance' prophecy would refer to Anakin staying in the force mystical land described in the episode and maintaining the balance of the force (or something similar).
But this interpretation of the prophecy is rejected. Yes, it was like this since before this episode; the episode merely evidentiates how the candidates for fulfilling the prophecy (ROTS, ROTJ) are incompatible with a taoist force by, ironically, presenting us a taoist variant of the fulfillment of the prophecy and how different it would be.
Holy crap! This episode is exactly what I wanted to see in the PT: they invent some crazy-ass world that is somehow "special" in regards to the Force. The world is full of all sorts of wonderful, spectacular mystical hooey that is both grandiose and non-specific enough to maintain the mystery. Anakin journeys there to learn Important Stuff about himself, the prophecy, and how it all relates to his fall to the Dark Side. He is given warnings, which of course he refuses to heed. This event is the fulcrum on which the story turns, and Anakin is now headed straight for Doom.
I should dig up my posts ranting on the topic and see how well the Force World fits my prerequisites. Pretty well, I'd say. Kudos to the writers for once again following my psychic suggestions. If only all shows were as accommodating as this one!
Finally, I'm getting some solid answers about that dang Force stuff. Contrary to spoilery stuff I've heard, there's no "trinity" (which sounded too much of a Western, Christian concept.) The duality concept is preserved with the Brother and Sister representing both sides of the Force. Note the very prominent Yin/Yang symbol on the floor of the arena.
As I've suspected, both the Jedi and Sith have incomplete understandings of what the Force truly is. I think this episode is telling us that the Dark Side is far more neutral than Jedi propaganda would have us believe. At the very least, it's beyond their petty understanding.
The Dark Side is an essential part of the whole of the galaxy, which requires dualities to be in balance: order/chaos, creation/destruction, day/night, summer/winter. You wouldn't call winter "bad" - it's part of a cycle that overall is good, but only if it's in balance.
Both the Sith and Jedi are silly, petty and wrong-headed in their battles with each other. In a larger sense, perhaps they can be considered good, in that they remain in balance as long as they struggle. But the childish notion that balance means the eradication of the Dark Side of the Force has now been thrown in the trash, where it belongs.
However, as long as the good guys are likable, we can still root for them. Even if they understood that the Force wants the continual maintenance of balance between good and evil, a decent person is going to have a hard time accepting such a thing. I'm supposed to let the bad guys win, even if that results in injustice and suffering, because for every bit of justice in the galaxy, there must be an equal bit of injustice? I can see why the Jedi would simply reject that notion out of hand. It's cruel and horrible.
I think what's going on here is a grand, galactic tragedy. The Jedi live in a cosmos that will be a hellish nightmare until they adjust their thinking to truly remove all thoughts of attachment, even attachment to ideas like justice and mercy. Only a completely neutral, unattached mind can cope with a cosmos that demands as much evil as good. The Jedi need to follow their own rules - really follow them, so that they should be utterly unattached to the Republic, and not care if it is supplanted with an Empire (which is then supplanted with a Republic, then an Empire - yet another cycle which is in balance in the macro sense).
I should dig up my posts ranting on the topic and see how well the Force World fits my prerequisites. Pretty well, I'd say. Kudos to the writers for once again following my psychic suggestions. If only all shows were as accommodating as this one!
Finally, I'm getting some solid answers about that dang Force stuff. Contrary to spoilery stuff I've heard, there's no "trinity" (which sounded too much of a Western, Christian concept.) The duality concept is preserved with the Brother and Sister representing both sides of the Force. Note the very prominent Yin/Yang symbol on the floor of the arena.
As I've suspected, both the Jedi and Sith have incomplete understandings of what the Force truly is. I think this episode is telling us that the Dark Side is far more neutral than Jedi propaganda would have us believe. At the very least, it's beyond their petty understanding.
The Dark Side is an essential part of the whole of the galaxy, which requires dualities to be in balance: order/chaos, creation/destruction, day/night, summer/winter. You wouldn't call winter "bad" - it's part of a cycle that overall is good, but only if it's in balance.
Both the Sith and Jedi are silly, petty and wrong-headed in their battles with each other. In a larger sense, perhaps they can be considered good, in that they remain in balance as long as they struggle. But the childish notion that balance means the eradication of the Dark Side of the Force has now been thrown in the trash, where it belongs.
It certainly makes the characters, both good guys and bad guys, look like foolish little critters, scampering around the galaxy and desperately trying to achieve goals they think are "correct" yet are just perpetuating imbalance. Everyone is getting nowhere fast.
However, as long as the good guys are likable, we can still root for them. Even if they understood that the Force wants the continual maintenance of balance between good and evil, a decent person is going to have a hard time accepting such a thing. I'm supposed to let the bad guys win, even if that results in injustice and suffering, because for every bit of justice in the galaxy, there must be an equal bit of injustice? I can see why the Jedi would simply reject that notion out of hand. It's cruel and horrible.
I think what's going on here is a grand, galactic tragedy. The Jedi live in a cosmos that will be a hellish nightmare until they adjust their thinking to truly remove all thoughts of attachment, even attachment to ideas like justice and mercy. Only a completely neutral, unattached mind can cope with a cosmos that demands as much evil as good. The Jedi need to follow their own rules - really follow them, so that they should be utterly unattached to the Republic, and not care if it is supplanted with an Empire (which is then supplanted with a Republic, then an Empire - yet another cycle which is in balance in the macro sense).
Anakin bringing balance to the Force is a nice double sided issue.
At the start of the PT, there's a thousand Jedi and only two Sith. Imbalance.
At the end of ROTS, there's two Sith (Sidious and Vader) and (for the purposes of the movie, not the EU) two Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan). Balance.
The light side ruled the galaxy, now the dark side rules.
At the end of ROTJ, the dark side rule of the galaxy is extinguished. Balance.
At the start of the PT, there's a thousand Jedi and only two Sith. Imbalance.
At the end of ROTS, there's two Sith (Sidious and Vader) and (for the purposes of the movie, not the EU) two Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan). Balance.
The light side ruled the galaxy, now the dark side rules.
At the end of ROTJ, the dark side rule of the galaxy is extinguished. Balance.
Other than the mystical stuff, I also noticed some interesting change in the depiction of Anakin's psychology. In the PT, we had the formula that his fear of losing attachments was what drove him to the Dark Side. That makes sense, since fear of losing what you cling to isn't something that comes from love.
But in this episode, Anakin's angst over not saving his mother wasn't fear but guilt. Fear is forward looking - worry about future pain. Guilt is backward looking - regret over past pain, which continues into the present. So they are two very different emotions.
Most importantly, guilt requires love because it can't exist without a sense of responsibility towards others. If you lose something that you were selfishly clinging to because of psychological support, you don't feel guilty. You move on to finding something else to use as a crutch. Only if you truly love what you've lost do you feel guilt about it, because guilt comes from disappointment at yourself that you didn't live up to your obligations to others.
So guilt is completely incompatible with the Sith notion of total selfishness. As such, guilt cannot be the reason for Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. If anything, it's a barrier to that happening. Was Anakin frantic about his visions of Padme's death because he was selfishly clinging to her (fear) or because he didn't want to fail in his responsibility to her (guilt)? Since her death was always set up as parallel to Schmi's, looks like it must have been guilt. So they still have a lot of work to do, to make the fall happen in a psychologically credible way.
But the mystical side of the equation is also being changed so completely that I see no way they can carry this story to its conclusion without replaying the events of ROTS, in completely different ways. They need to just re-do ROTS so that it synchs up with this story, because TCW and ROTS are diverging more and more with every episode and are now completely incompatible.
The story that now makes sense is that Anakin realizes that the Dark Side isn't the terrible thing the Jedi have told him it is - because they are objectively wrong about that. When Anakin decides to become a Sith, he is correct and the Jedi are wrong.
ROTS would have us believe that Anakin was the one who was wrong, and in fact, he was just flat-out insane, or stupid, or stupid and insane. Now his psychology has changed so that he's too smart and sane for that angle to work, and the mystical angle has also changed to leave open the possibility of re-running ROTS with the audience backing Anakin's actions, or at least not condemning them utterly.
The effects aren't immediately obvious, because the cycle is immense and changes can't be perceived on a human level so quickly. But as the only two known Force users in the galaxy, I could see how the Force might glom onto the two siblings to play out the metaphor of the Brother and Sister on a human scale.
With the taoist idea of balance, the Star Wars story can never end. Any seeming ending is merely temporary, and if one side "wins," you definitely know it's temporary. This is a radical departure from Western ideas of how stories should go. There should be an ENDING when the good guys win. Well, maybe not in this case. It's cool to see something different from the norm.
But in this episode, Anakin's angst over not saving his mother wasn't fear but guilt. Fear is forward looking - worry about future pain. Guilt is backward looking - regret over past pain, which continues into the present. So they are two very different emotions.
Most importantly, guilt requires love because it can't exist without a sense of responsibility towards others. If you lose something that you were selfishly clinging to because of psychological support, you don't feel guilty. You move on to finding something else to use as a crutch. Only if you truly love what you've lost do you feel guilt about it, because guilt comes from disappointment at yourself that you didn't live up to your obligations to others.
So guilt is completely incompatible with the Sith notion of total selfishness. As such, guilt cannot be the reason for Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. If anything, it's a barrier to that happening. Was Anakin frantic about his visions of Padme's death because he was selfishly clinging to her (fear) or because he didn't want to fail in his responsibility to her (guilt)? Since her death was always set up as parallel to Schmi's, looks like it must have been guilt. So they still have a lot of work to do, to make the fall happen in a psychologically credible way.
But the mystical side of the equation is also being changed so completely that I see no way they can carry this story to its conclusion without replaying the events of ROTS, in completely different ways. They need to just re-do ROTS so that it synchs up with this story, because TCW and ROTS are diverging more and more with every episode and are now completely incompatible.
The story that now makes sense is that Anakin realizes that the Dark Side isn't the terrible thing the Jedi have told him it is - because they are objectively wrong about that. When Anakin decides to become a Sith, he is correct and the Jedi are wrong.
ROTS would have us believe that Anakin was the one who was wrong, and in fact, he was just flat-out insane, or stupid, or stupid and insane. Now his psychology has changed so that he's too smart and sane for that angle to work, and the mystical angle has also changed to leave open the possibility of re-running ROTS with the audience backing Anakin's actions, or at least not condemning them utterly.
Simple: ROTJ isn't the end of the story. Balance means a cycle that never ends. Anakin was "right" in ROTS, and the Force was brought into balance. By redeeming Anakin, Luke unbalances the Force in ROTJ.
The effects aren't immediately obvious, because the cycle is immense and changes can't be perceived on a human level so quickly. But as the only two known Force users in the galaxy, I could see how the Force might glom onto the two siblings to play out the metaphor of the Brother and Sister on a human scale.
With the taoist idea of balance, the Star Wars story can never end. Any seeming ending is merely temporary, and if one side "wins," you definitely know it's temporary. This is a radical departure from Western ideas of how stories should go. There should be an ENDING when the good guys win. Well, maybe not in this case. It's cool to see something different from the norm.
Until the wheel swings around and the dark side rules again. Any victory for either side is temporary and the story has no ending.
Mr Light said:
This is not correct.
"Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness." Imbalance.
It's not a head count.
Destroying the Sith in ROTJ leaves the Force balanced according to Lucas. This is not inconsistent with the "taoist" depiction because the Force is still dualistic. The Sith are what is destroyed, not the dark side itself. As this episode goes to the trouble of showing, the dark side is a fundamental part of the Force which the Sith seek to exploit.
Temis the Vorta said:
That is the exact opposite of what actually happens in canon.
Temis the Vorta said:
Not at all. The apparent intent of TCW is to synch up with the existing ROTS.
Temis the Vorta said:
The Jedi are objectively right about the dark side. In the end, Anakin doesn't prove to be the mythical Nietzschean/Vergereian superman character who can use the dark side without falling to evil; he falls. "Becoming a Sith is correct" has no part in the story Lucas is telling; it's the exact opposite of his message.
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And then there was his often-overlooked sponsorship of Vader-Os cereal, part of this balanced breakfast.
^ LOL.
Im pretty sure, tho its unlikely anyone else actually agrees, Anakin was NOT the chosen one. Luke was.
Luke brought about this taoist "balance", not Anakin.
Another thought about Anakin: if he were always intended to serve as the person who literally balances the Light and Dark Sides, being able to bring both to heel, doesn't that mean he must contain both Light and Dark Sides within himself?
That means he couldn't make a good Jedi or a good Sith. Those roles are too limited for him. Obviously, he's not a good Jedi - too much darkness. But he didn't seem to be a very "good" Sith, either. If he had recruited Luke successfully, I don't think that would have been a case where both parties had to watch their backs.
Since TCW Anakin is being portrayed as someone capable of true love, not selfish clinging, I don't see why he would have ever stabbed Luke in the back (a Sith Luke might have stabbed him in the back, however). And it all synchs up with his decision to give up power, and his life, in order to save Luke in ROTJ.
Both Jedi and Sith wanted Anakin on their side, but he shouldn't have accepted either side. The Force World was always the right place for him, but of course, that's too far beyond his mentality. He can't just give up Padme, all his Jedi friends, being a Jedi, feelings of responsibility for the outcome of the war, etc.
Maybe the Jedi interfered with the natural order of things by finding Anakin in the first place. They were never supposed to find him. Maybe he was intended to be called somehow to the Force World, direct from Tatooine, when he was old enough? Something really got frakked up there.
That means he couldn't make a good Jedi or a good Sith. Those roles are too limited for him. Obviously, he's not a good Jedi - too much darkness. But he didn't seem to be a very "good" Sith, either. If he had recruited Luke successfully, I don't think that would have been a case where both parties had to watch their backs.
Since TCW Anakin is being portrayed as someone capable of true love, not selfish clinging, I don't see why he would have ever stabbed Luke in the back (a Sith Luke might have stabbed him in the back, however). And it all synchs up with his decision to give up power, and his life, in order to save Luke in ROTJ.
Both Jedi and Sith wanted Anakin on their side, but he shouldn't have accepted either side. The Force World was always the right place for him, but of course, that's too far beyond his mentality. He can't just give up Padme, all his Jedi friends, being a Jedi, feelings of responsibility for the outcome of the war, etc.
Maybe the Jedi interfered with the natural order of things by finding Anakin in the first place. They were never supposed to find him. Maybe he was intended to be called somehow to the Force World, direct from Tatooine, when he was old enough? Something really got frakked up there.
Anakin was never meant to be found by the Jedi. If you listen carefully to the story of Darth Plaegus the wise, Palpatine mentions that he had the ability to create life itself.
I believe that Anakin was created within the womb of a lowly slave in the outer rim as a way for Plageus to grow himself a new apprentice, one strong with the force, far outside the Republic, and the meddling eyes of the Jedi, as well as away from an apprentice who was getting too big for his britches.
Palpatine simply killed his master and was unable to either find the boy, or was at the time unaware that Plaegus had begun creation of the new apprentice.
The will of the Force is what brought Qui Gon and Obi Wan to Tattooine.
I believe that Anakin was created within the womb of a lowly slave in the outer rim as a way for Plageus to grow himself a new apprentice, one strong with the force, far outside the Republic, and the meddling eyes of the Jedi, as well as away from an apprentice who was getting too big for his britches.
Palpatine simply killed his master and was unable to either find the boy, or was at the time unaware that Plaegus had begun creation of the new apprentice.
The will of the Force is what brought Qui Gon and Obi Wan to Tattooine.
So the Force World family were wrong about Anakin? They were actually waiting for Luke?
I did find it interesting that the Force World Father has a son and daughter (twins?) Is this supposed to have relevance for Anakin's kids to be born in the not too distant future?
Did Force World dad think, "too bad Anakin wouldn't stick around, well there's more than one way to skin a womp-rat, I'll just use him to make me another Chosen One..."
But how could Plaegus' story synch up with Force World Father, who was apparently expecting Anakin? Was Plaegus also being manipulated? And why would the Force direct Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to find Anakin and frak everything up?
Also, I have to commend any "kiddie show" that would use the word "anchorite" correctly in a sentence.
Im tempted to think that "father" "son" and "daughter" are more just incarnations of the force than any real physical beings. Also, an allegory to a godhead trinity, as well as Anakin himself with his own twin children to come.
We may learn more in time to come, but for now, I dont think it actually fits in with the story as we know it.
We may learn more in time to come, but for now, I dont think it actually fits in with the story as we know it.
It's interesting because I think they introduced Choice into the whole Destiny thing.
Anakin chose to not stay (ie, fulfill his destiny) so, it fell to Luke.
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