STAR WARS PREQUELS - a love/hate relationship

[Kegg]

Then why call it Ryloth at all? Name it "Oobaboobooine" and say it's a Twi'lek colony world. Everybody wins.

Because they wanted to set it on the Twi'lek home world, clearly?

They could have called the homeworld Oobaboobooine if they wanted, sure, but they went with the EU name instead, a la Ryloth.

This is a series which began giving Anakin a padawan who had never been mentioned in the EU coverage of the Clone Wars. It was going to clash with the EU from the get-go, and the question simply was how much so.

First, you're thinking of AOTC, not TPM.

I was actually thinking of Sio Bibble's line from The Phanton Menace, but I misremembered how it contradicted the EU. The line is as follows: "There hasn't been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic."

The EU, obviously, has had a few wars in there - hell, there's a MMO coming out later this year whose basic premise is 'full-scale war involving the Republic'.

( Also, a canon completist type would tell you that later EU material constitutes a retcon of the Fett retcon

There's a lot of that out there. I remember the first canon reference to the Mandolarians, which ahd them as an extinct group whose armour Boba Fett happened to wear. I recall EU fans being incensed at the Clone Wars depictment of the Mandalorians but that was really just the latest retcon in a series of retcons about that group.

 

[Mach5]

Canon is the garrote used to strangle creativity.

QFT

I applaud you, sir.

 

[JarodRussell]

Canon is the garrote used to strangle creativity.

QFT

I applaud you, sir.

Disagree. Sticking to the canon actually forces you to be creative.

That's like saying the 45 minute format strangles creativity in TV shows.

 

[Mach5]

Disagree. Sticking to the canon actually forces you to be creative.

I guess THAT'S why EVERYTHING gets rebooted nowadays...

Unrelated to all this, the best Trek Lit stories I've read have mostly been the AU ones. Not to mention that the whole Enterprise relaunch series would be infinitely better if the writers didn't need to obey so much retarded shit from TOS, just because it's TEH CANON!!!

-.-

 

[Pauln6]

Disagree. Sticking to the canon actually forces you to be creative.

I guess THAT'S why EVERYTHING gets rebooted nowadays...

Unrelated to all this, the best Trek Lit stories I've read have mostly been the AU ones. Not to mention that the whole Enterprise relaunch series would be infinitely better if the writers didn't need to obey so much retarded shit from TOS, just because it's TEH CANON!!!

-.-

Enterprise got a lot more praise from fans when they started to adhere more to canon in its final series. I was really enjoying the orions and andorians when they cancelled it.

Reboots after decades can get the creative juices flowing again but I do think that the very recent tendency to reboot after just a few years is definitely down to finances and a lack of creativity.

The Spiderman franchise was rebooted when there was a ton of creative potential because the director didn't agree with the producers about the creative direction (in spite of a widespread view that their overruling him in 3 was one of the reasons the movie didn't quite work). Now we can get a creative retelling of the origin story. Yay.

Superman Returns was a good movie (and a definite improvement on 3 & 4) but not a massive financial success so in spite of huge ongoing potential, we get a reboot just so they can retell his origin (in a more creative way one assumes). Yay.

The Batman franchise started to become less popular because, instead of sticking to the gothic tone of the original, they made it camper. I liked both versions but I don't see canon as stifling the creativity of either team.

I will bitch-slap someone if they reboot the X-men.

 

[Mach5]

Enterprise got a lot more praise from fans when they started to adhere more to canon in its final series. I was really enjoying the orions and andorians when they cancelled it.

Missing the point. First Contact defied TOS canon and ended up being the only really good TNG movie.

On the other hand, the canon established in "Balance of terror" pretty much ruins any possibility of a good Romulan war story, which showed in the last relaunch novel where the author did his best to obey TOS and it ended up looking ridiculous.

My point, it's ok to obey canon, but not AT ALL costs.

 

[Pauln6]

Yep, I agree. I hate betazoid telepathy as shown in TNG so I revamped it for my own photostory, making it more like a radio transmitter and receiver with overtones of the nebulous, unreliable telepathy in B5. Job done.

 

[Kegg]

Canon is the garrote used to strangle creativity.

QFT

I applaud you, sir.

Disagree. Sticking to the canon actually forces you to be creative.

In fairness the Clone Wars is sticking to how canon works in the Star Wars franchise.

Nobody's ever expected the Star Trek TV series or films to obey the precedent given in Star Trek novels or comics because those are absolutely non-canon. You might like how Diane Duane handles the Rihannsu, but that's not a blueprint the takes of the Romulans in J.J. Abrams' Star Trek or Star Trek: Nemesis needed to take into consideration.

The big difference, obviously, is that Star Wars works on gradations of canon. Those comics and books and so on are canon, but the Star Wars movies - and the new cartoon series - are more canon. Which means where-ever they contradict, the films or TV show are correct by default because they have a higher canon level. That might be understandably frustrating for fans of the EU, but these rules have given the EU more legitimacy than the Star Trek equivalent has ever enjoyed.

 

[Mach5]

but these rules have given the EU more legitimacy than the Star Trek equivalent has ever enjoyed.

To my understanding, the prequels "undid" dozens of EU books (Boba Fett stories, the whose issue of Jedi celibacy etc.). Can we really call this "legitimacy"?

BTW, why are the Trek lit writers so harshly obligated to obey canon, when their novels are de facto no more than licensed fan fiction?

 

[Kegg]

To my understanding, the prequels "undid" dozens of EU books (Boba Fett stories, the whose issue of Jedi celibacy etc.). Can we really call this "legitimacy"?

Yes, because before those books were contradicted they were canon, and those that haven't been contradicted are still canon. This is quite different from never being canon, but without requiring the makes of the films or the new TV show to adhere to them.

 

[Broccoli]

Well, this explains a lot.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BMgegut3UM[/yt]

 

[Yevetha]

Disagree. Sticking to the canon actually forces you to be creative.

I guess THAT'S why EVERYTHING gets rebooted nowadays...

Unrelated to all this, the best Trek Lit stories I've read have mostly been the AU ones. Not to mention that the whole Enterprise relaunch series would be infinitely better if the writers didn't need to obey so much retarded shit from TOS, just because it's TEH CANON!!!

-.-

"
I guess THAT'S why EVERYTHING gets rebooted nowadays..."

SW wont need a reboot.

There are plenty of empty areas in SW chronolgy where the universe can be reshaped.

 

[Sean Aaron]

I really think we need to work Jar Jar into the last three films. Just feels empty without him...

 

[Set Harth]

There's always the "Wesa free!" guy...

 

[Whofan]

As I understand it, the conflicting Boba Fett origins were reconciled by having Fett adopt the Jaster Mereel name as a pseudonym-he still was a journeyman protector at some point between AOTC and ESB (Specifically, the Legacy of the Force novels mainly establish this). Even the throway reference in DARK EMPIRE to Boba once being an Imperial Stormtrooper actually makes sense in the context with what we know.

BTW anybody read the MAKING OF STAR WARS hardcover where Lucas has a sort of 'story bible' for the EU? Interesting EU elements such as C-3PO being a century old, Han being an Imperial pilot, and various other elements are in there. One curious element sticks to Leia's original story, that she was the biological daughter of Bail Organa and had brothers who died when the Death Star destoyed Alderaan.

As for the Republic thousand years thing, the Darth Bane novels have attempted to reconcile that by stating that after the Sith War which all but eliminated both orders, the Jedi and Republic underwent massive changes and a reorganization, mainly by having the Jedi be peacekeepers instead of soldiers and disarming the Republic fleet.


Perhaps the most problematic continuity issues are those with the Clone Wars. The comics/novels for that era have been largely contradicted by the events in the series.

 

[Set Harth]

Even the throway reference in DARK EMPIRE to Boba once being an Imperial Stormtrooper actually makes sense in the context with what we know.

How? As far as I know, Boba was never a stormtrooper. He was cloned from the same template as the original batch of stormtroopers. That doesn't cut it. If I have a twin brother and he gets elected president, I can't go around saying I got elected president.

As for the Republic thousand years thing, the Darth Bane novels have attempted to reconcile that by stating that after the Sith War which all but eliminated both orders, the Jedi and Republic underwent massive changes and a reorganization, mainly by having the Jedi be peacekeepers instead of soldiers and disarming the Republic fleet.

It's important to evaluate Palpatine's full line of dialogue in its own context.
"I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two." What happens if mass secession goes ahead unchallenged and the Republic is in fact split in two as he describes? You've still got something called the Republic, only somewhat smaller - yet in the implied terminology of the first part of the quote, it no longer stands. In this light we see that Palpatine's dialogue does not preclude the existence of something called the Republic for much longer than a thousand years.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Canon is the garrote used to strangle creativity.

QFT

I applaud you, sir.

Disagree. Sticking to the canon actually forces you to be creative.

That's like saying the 45 minute format strangles creativity in TV shows.

You're both wrong. The trick is to distinguish between canon that should be kept, and canon that should be given the boot. Just because something has been done on screen does not mean it should have been. Conversely, sometimes the work of previous writers is good and deserves respect.

For example, almost all of Star Trek's on-screen canon is perfectly good and should be respected. So to clear the playing field for a new TOS-era movie franchise where anything can happen, you need to establish a new parallel reality. To do a reboot would have been disrespectful.

But the PT contains a large number of elements that were never worthwhile, and can safely be rebooted, which is what The Clone Wars is busy doing. If they're trampling on the EU as well, I don't really care, being entirely unfamiliar with it.

Enterprise got a lot more praise from fans when they started to adhere more to canon in its final series. I was really enjoying the orions and andorians when they cancelled it.

The praise came more from the fact that Berman and Braga had turned over the reins to Manny Coto, who at long last brought in a fresh new approach, replacing the rehashed TNG and VOY scripts of S1 and S2, and the lame attempt to ape DS9's arc-based-war-story approach that characterized S3. The fact that Coto might have been also interested in exploring the origins of TOS era characters was just incidental. He could have done stories with all new elements, and as long as they were also creatively fresh, those stories would have been praiseworthy as well.

 

[Set Harth]

You're both wrong. The trick is to distinguish between canon that should be kept, and canon that should be given the boot. Just because something has been done on screen does not mean it should have been. Conversely, sometimes the work of previous writers is good and deserves respect.

And who decides which is which? You? Great system, clearly not having anything to do with the aggrandizement of personal opinion.

But the PT contains a large number of elements that were never worthwhile, and can safely be rebooted, which is what The Clone Wars is busy doing.

Such as? The Clone Wars is not conceived as an alternate universe PT reboot, even though haters seem to insist that it must be. It hasn't rebooted anything from the PT ( other than the understandable impression, unstated in the PT, that Anakin never had a padawan, which apparently was "never worthwhile" ).

If they're trampling on the EU as well, I don't really care, being entirely unfamiliar with it.

And what if the OT is right there under the bus along with the EU?

 

[Professor Zoom]

You're both wrong. The trick is to distinguish between canon that should be kept, and canon that should be given the boot. Just because something has been done on screen does not mean it should have been. Conversely, sometimes the work of previous writers is good and deserves respect.

And who decides which is which? You? Great system, clearly not having anything to do with the aggrandizement of personal opinion.

Who ever is the show runner gets to make those decisions. You can like them or not, but that person is the one who gets to decide. They are paid to do it, and they should exercise that right.

 

[Mach5]

You're both wrong. The trick is to distinguish between canon that should be kept, and canon that should be given the boot. Just because something has been done on screen does not mean it should have been. Conversely, sometimes the work of previous writers is good and deserves respect.

How does this contradict anything I said?

I agree with you 101%.