Star Wars Episode 3: Was there as epic as this?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
- Start date
That was not really a duel more a embarrassment 
Doctorwhovian
Fleet Captain
Funny about the high ground thing, Luke does a similar thing in ROTJ (The scene where he says "I feel the good in you, the conflict"). Except Vader just throws the saber at him this time (Which also cuts the platform down) instead of making the jump that cost him so much in ROTS.
The Mace/Palpatine/Anakin duel also has similarities to the whole Luke/Vader/Palpatine thing in ROTJ, with Vader making the choice to go dark side in a similar fashion to how he eventually "Returns" to the light side. Also the way Mace is holding his saber over Palpatine is very similar to that shot of Vader in ESB when he's saying "You are beaten".
Not really defending the films, just stating some visual similarities that might have intentional or not.
The Mace/Palpatine/Anakin duel also has similarities to the whole Luke/Vader/Palpatine thing in ROTJ, with Vader making the choice to go dark side in a similar fashion to how he eventually "Returns" to the light side. Also the way Mace is holding his saber over Palpatine is very similar to that shot of Vader in ESB when he's saying "You are beaten".
Not really defending the films, just stating some visual similarities that might have intentional or not.
The major difference between the two scenes in that Luke gave up fighting Vader except in defense. The real similarity in ROTJ and ROTS is that Palpatine was testing both Luke and Anakin while pretending to hold back.
And Vader wasn't going to kill Luke, but Mace was certainly going to kill Palpatine, However Anakin cuts offf Mace's hand just like he did to Luke.
Despite the galactic changes, the characters in that movie never really sell to me on the epicness of what just happened. Yoda just leaves from the fight-yes, I know the reasons, but it doesn't feel like it meant something to the character, in a way that shapes him in to Yoda in Episode V.
The epic nature, for me, comes from how it impacts the characters. And, I just don't feel any impact to the characters in ROTS.
ROTJ feels more epic because it feels like a last stand for the Rebels. The battle at the beginning does not feel like the Republic fighting for it's survival, or the Jedi fighting for their survival. It feels like it is inevitable that they will fail. There is no opportunity for them to succeed.
Contrast that with ROTJ where the Empire actually has the upper hand and is close to winning.
Like I said, it just doesn't feel epic to me. It feels inevitable.
I'm absolutely certain that all similarities, however minor they might be, are intentional. Lucas knows Star Wars better than anyone else, and he absolutely knows what he's doing (he just does it in a way I personally don't like).
Stupid high ground
Also, as much respect as I have for Lucas, I don't think he cares as much in calling back from one series to another. There are so many details that get focused on while others get lost. I hate to nitpick (but I'm on a Star Trek forum so why not?) but he had to be reminded that Luke got Anakin's lightsaber in Episode 4 and shot a pick up of Obi-Wan getting it.
Also, despite all the talk, we never get an explanation of the Force Ghost, Dagobah's history and other details.
As much fun as the prequels are, they are not very satisfying for me.
I've always believed that wasn't "damage" from the lightening. Rather, it was Palpatine revealing his true form. In ROTJ, the image of the Emperor is that of someone who has been fighting the *loooong* (read: thousands of years) fight against the Jedi. In the first trilogy, we realize this creature has been hiding amongst the sheep, awaiting the right time to strike.
I admit I know nothing of the EU, but isn't the dialogue at the opera between Palpatine and Anakin in ROTS meant to suggest that he (Palpatine) is Darth Plageuis?
While I will admit that I am not the most versed in the EU, I have read the ROTS novelization and Palpatine says that only his master knew how to prevent death.
Also, it is implied that Palpatine killed his master before Plageuis could reveal the secret.
Like I said, I am not versed in the EU, but everything I have seen treats him as a different individual. Also, he has his own action figure: http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig24/10240141a.jpg
Also, while I don't like the prequels, I do understand that it is near and dear to people. So, while I think Lucas has a different view of the OT than I do and made the prequels to his tastes, I know that others have an appreciation for these films.
"Wars not make one great."
It's in the script. It's possible that they simply didn't get to it during principal photography.
??? This is bad? Surely it would be worse if he hadn't.
We get enough explanation of Force Ghosts to give some context to their appearances in other movies; i.e.
etc. etc. Actually it's surprising how well that exchange at the end of ROTS explains things ... considering that we're already talking about an ill-defined mystic "Force" that (in-universe) tries to overwrite people's notions of God, life and death, morality, free will, and random chance. And possibly genetics. All at the same time.
Apart from setting a whole movie on Dagobah, what would you want? An onscreen explanation for the Vader Cave, why Yoda chose that particular place, etc.? I know there are novels that get into the details, but onscreen these are not unanswered questions. Yoda hid out on the most obscure craphole planet he could find. When training Luke, he sent him to a cave that he knew would have odd effects on the mind to give him some insight -- if he didn't create the effects himself. No other explanations needed for Dagobah.
Otherwise:
- It's wet.
- It's misty.
- It's hard on technology.
- It's a slimy mudhole. <yoda> "HEY!" <yoda>
I have to agree with you in general, but I give credit to ROTS for hitting all the checklist items that a prequel needs to hit. (If nothing else.) Anakin turns to the dark side? Check. Anakin is horribly burned and puts on the armor? Check. Republic falls, Empire rises, Jedi wiped out? Check. The Skywalker twins are born and sent into hiding? Check. Obi-Wan gets hold of Anakin's lightsaber and saves it for Luke? Check. Explanation for apparent inconsistencies of Force Ghosts? Check. Explanation for why Threepio doesn't recognize all this stuff during ANH? Check.
Truly, was there ever a checklist as epic as this?
No, it's meant to suggest that Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's Master. The EU confirms this.
Well, I will counter that with another Yoda quote.
"Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor."
Clearly, there is still a battle to be fought, but Yoda opts out, without another strategy?
We understand it, as fans, because we have seen the rest of the movies. However, in that moment, he goes from feeling a need to defeat the Emperor to just giving up, both on Anakin and on defeating Palpatine. If the Sith are such an evil force, than we really should have more of a plan than "Failed, I have. Into exile I must go." To the novelization's credit, it is much better explained.Which, will bring me to my next point:
??? This is bad? Surely it would be worse if he hadn't.
We get enough explanation of Force Ghosts to give some context to their appearances in other movies; i.e.
etc. etc. Actually it's surprising how well that exchange at the end of ROTS explains things ... considering that we're already talking about an ill-defined mystic "Force" that (in-universe) tries to overwrite people's notions of God, life and death, morality, free will, and random chance. And possibly genetics. All at the same time.
Apart from setting a whole movie on Dagobah, what would you want? An onscreen explanation for the Vader Cave, why Yoda chose that particular place, etc.? I know there are novels that get into the details, but onscreen these are not unanswered questions. Yoda hid out on the most obscure craphole planet he could find. When training Luke, he sent him to a cave that he knew would have odd effects on the mind to give him some insight -- if he didn't create the effects himself. No other explanations needed for Dagobah.
Otherwise:
Nothing to see here, move along.
- It's wet.
- It's misty.
- It's hard on technology.
- It's a slimy mudhole. <yoda> "HEY!" <yoda>
I have to agree with you in general, but I give credit to ROTS for hitting all the checklist items that a prequel needs to hit. (If nothing else.) Anakin turns to the dark side? Check. Anakin is horribly burned and puts on the armor? Check. Republic falls, Empire rises, Jedi wiped out? Check. The Skywalker twins are born and sent into hiding? Check. Obi-Wan gets hold of Anakin's lightsaber and saves it for Luke? Check. Explanation for apparent inconsistencies of Force Ghosts? Check. Explanation for why Threepio doesn't recognize all this stuff during ANH? Check.
Truly, was there ever a checklist as epic as this?
No, it isn't bad that Lucas forgot. It is that it had to be shot in a pick up, because they suddenly realized Obi-Wan needed Anakin's lightsaber.
What do I want? Well, why that planet? See, my problem with ROTS is that there is too much packed in there, when it could have very easily been spread out more over the entire prequel trilogy. There are several loose threads that are left hanging that are expected to be picked up by novels?
Secondly, as I said before, the characters are not people I am invested in. Anakin is too whiny and not a hero. I would compare him to an angsty teenager, who, instead of being mad at his parents, he is made at the Jedi Order. He rebels, not because of any other reason than the plot demands it.
Also, the Jedi are basically treated as pretentious jerks who deserve everything that they get. And they are the good guys, yet we see them doing sneaky, underhanded things, lying, and generally being arrogant know-it-alls who can't spot a Dark Lord of the Sith in the same room!
Force Ghosts-explained via contextual deduction is not the same as an explanation. Again, the novel does this quite well. Too bad it couldn't be worked in to the script
Dagobah-yes, why that planet? Can't even get a description by Yoda as to why he picks that planet to go in to exile. Again, maybe a small throw-away line but something that shows it more than just an assumption that Yoda ends up there.
Ugh, the prequels are very frustrating to me, because there is just a sense of inevitability that all the new characters will die, so I don't care about them. And I want to! That's the thing. I want to care that all the Jedi I meet are just going to buy it by the end of the series.
Finally, the characters do not work for me. If they work for you, great, and I am happy for you. It doesn't work for me because there is no connection, no way that I care about them.
ROTS may have hit the checklist, but it isn't in a satisfying way.
For further thoughts on this, I recommend the friendsinyourhead.com podcast discussing the prequels (warning: harsh language).
No, I agree with almost everything you said and the characters don't work for me either. I'm only giving credit to ROTS because it hits the "prequel" notes better than, say, ENT does for the rest of Trek. I don't give it credit any other way.
It's only that your Dagobah and Force Ghost examples happened to be things I'm okay with. Just luck.
Obi-Wan: "In my experience there's no such thing as luck."
Silvercrest: "In your experience you managed to mentor the guy who wiped out your entire order and killed most of your friends. And in your experience you heard a prophecy that told you it was all going to happen, meaning someone at very high cosmic levels had it in for you. And you still never saw any of it coming! You should try luck sometime; the odds are better."
It's only that your Dagobah and Force Ghost examples happened to be things I'm okay with. Just luck.
Obi-Wan: "In my experience there's no such thing as luck."
Silvercrest: "In your experience you managed to mentor the guy who wiped out your entire order and killed most of your friends. And in your experience you heard a prophecy that told you it was all going to happen, meaning someone at very high cosmic levels had it in for you. And you still never saw any of it coming! You should try luck sometime; the odds are better."
Fair point, I can see where you are coming from.
Interesting interpretation too. The Force Ghost, in my opinion was better served without anything in the prequel, because it leaves the question of why only the main character Jedi go ghosty
but, I won't quibble. Like I said, I can accept it better because the novel goes so much deeper in to it.Beyond that, I have nothing else to add beyond my enjoyment of the prequels as really expensive fan art.
fireproof78 said:
I guess you could call "get shot by stormtroopers" a strategy, but I don't know that I would call it a good one.
fireproof78 said:
ANH Vader couldn't spot his own child in the same room. Perhaps the Force simply doesn't work that way.
fireproof78 said:
In that moment he gives up on Anakin? I don't think so. At that moment Anakin was already dueling Obi-Wan. And he doesn't wholly give up on defeating Palpatine after that point, he just shifts his focus to Anakin's children.
fireproof78 said:
There's a scene in the script which is nearly identical to the presentation in the novel, it just didn't make it into the released film. We might ask why not, but arguably at least one reason is that it doesn't serve the plot of the film it's in. Name-dropping the Whills is great fanwank but it's not really necessary. What is explained in the film is enough: Qui-Gon has discovered a path to immortality.
fireproof78 said:
No, ROTS explains that: Qui-Gon learned it first, then Yoda and Obi-Wan learned it from Qui-Gon.
fireproof78 said:
You're missing the point, or simply not listening. "Lucas forgot"/"they suddenly realized" is not necesssarily what took place, despite the fact that people assert it to be true on the internet. For all we know they had planned to do it all along.
fireproof78 said:
By definition they are nothing of the sort. "Fan" usually means "someone who is not George Lucas".
Last edited:
I can think of several options that would not involve being shot. In addition, Yoda has certainly demonstrated that clones are not an issue.
This is a possibility, but the Jedi keep saying that they sense the power of the Dark Side, both in Dooku, as well as surrounding the Chancellor. So, there is some wiggle room there that still feels like a contrivance than good story telling to me,
But, that isn't a plan. The greatest evil the galaxy has ever known is about to take over the Republic, and one fight decides it all? I'm sorry, but if this is a clash between good and evil, especially with the emphasis on Jedi being similar to samurai, Yoda should be figuring out the next strike, or left for dead, not imposing an exile with the fate of the galaxy at stake.
Explained it how? That Qui-Gon learned it? From who? How does it work? Why don't all Jedi ghosty?
Also, while I know the novel explains it in detail, the novel is not canon. Lucas does not get credit for having things explained in the book but not in the film.
I normally don't have a problem with that, but it is lazy screen writing to say it will be explained and then snap your fingers and say that the character figured it out. It might be enough for you, and that's fine, but it isn't enough for me.
Let me illustrate this with a similar issue that has come up with Star Trek (2009). Many fans have complained that Nero's story and motivation makes no sense. However, as some have pointed out, we get the full details of his story in a comic that came out before release. However, as much as I enjoy Star Trek comics, I should not have to read more backstory in order to understand a movie. In other words, if it is not in the movie, I should not have to do research in order to understand a film. Now, I have no issue with Nero's story as presented in the film, so the comic is irrelevant to my enjoyment of Star Trek.
However, ROTS is not satisfying to me in terms of the ghost explanation because it is hand-waved away. Regardless of expanded universe material, the films are treated as a level of canon unto themselves, by Lucas. So, I will have to take that with a certain level of authority.
Not based on what I have read in the making of book. Much of what ended up on screen was same-day changes that Lucas just came up with. From what I read, it does not feel like a coherent plan. Sorry, I don't buy that.
This is true. However, I am referring to the production design, clones, Jedi, starships and planets. I think that the movies are beautiful to look at but the story and characters are not satisfying, especially in light of how satisfying the original trilogy is from start to finish.
In addition, many of the production designers, artists and actors had a great love for the Star Wars saga. That is why Liam Neeson came on board, why Samuel L Jackson made a special request to be in it, why Terrence Stamp was in it and why Ian McDirmid came back. There is a draw to Star Wars and that shows in the design of these films.
It isn't that I want the prequels to be perfect and I know the originals had their flaws. It is just that I don't feel any connections to the characters and feel no sympathy towards them or their plight. I know that they are going to die, and that frustrates me. The Jedi are painted as arrogant jerks who get what they deserve. I shouldn't feel that way!
Even reading the novel, the bad guys come off as having a point, and being in the right. They are not painted as evil, but as people who are trying to do the right thing, but perhaps by the wrong methods.
Anyway, that's just my point of view. I have read many reviews, books and materials but the prequels, especially ROTS, just are not satisfying to me.
However, that is just my opinion.
You could look at it this way. Yoda just had it pounded into him that his judgment was wrong, that his wisdom and experience were of no use, that he had been outmaneuvered and out-thought from the beginning, and that his way of doing things was not going to resolve the situation. One fight didn't decide it all, but that last fight finally made it all sink in.
Under the circumstances, escaping and spending a long time thinking about what the hell to do next is a pretty good idea. Yes, the fate of the galaxy is at stake. But it's better that the galaxy suffer under Palpatine for a few years before Yoda figures out a way to unseat him -- as opposed to guaranteeing that the galaxy remains oppressed for centuries because Yoda blew it by getting himself killed.
It's not that I approve of the writing, you understand. Portraying the Jedi as arrogant jackasses who deserved to get killed is an idiocy all its own. And the writing that had the heroes outwitted from the beginning and never gave them a chance is another story still. So again, I don't primarily disagree with you.
Yoda went on a long and arduous spiritual journey right before "Revenge of the Sith" where he learned the futility of the Clone Wars and the current path of the Jedi. That's why when he couldn't beat Sidious in a duel he ran away. He finally realized that they had completely lost because they were fighting the wrong war all along.
Similar threads
