Star Trek's Sexist Legacy

[Bry_Sinclair]

^ Would be an interesting take for a series lead, to have someone who isn't a fighter but a thinker, so they could be trying to pull everyone's asses out of the fire while the rest of the team are firing phasers all around.

Take it a step further and make them a pacifist/conscientious objector at heart.

 

[Jayson1]

I think I might start off with them as a pacifist but eventually they would half to kill because when it comes to combat it's just something that is going to happen sooner or later but then that would make for good drama. Maybe they go down a dark spiral but then come out of it. But not in cliche way. What if she couldn't live with what she did so she used tech to erase her memories of the murder and even though she has memory she starts to feel these feelings of depression and guilt and she doesn't know where it's coming from. Her body can feel she did something bad even if her memories of it aren't there.

I would also love to bring her mother onto the show and deal with her issues with her. Maybe her mom is a kind of serious minded person and the reason they don't get along is not because some soap opera type of thing. It's just because they have such different personalities they just don't really get each other. They are cordial and aren't overly mean and it's mostly normal but they just aren't close which is what hurts Tilly the most. There is no big reason they don't get along. It's just because they never found away to connect and her mom isn't even mean so it's hard to even hate her.


Jason

 

[Orphalesion]

I think I might start off with them as a pacifist but eventually they would half to kill because when it comes to combat it's just something that is going to happen sooner or later but then that would make for good drama. Maybe they go down a dark spiral but then come out of it. But not in cliche way. What if she couldn't live with what she did so she used tech to erase her memories of the murder and even though she has memory she starts to feel these feelings of depression and guilt and she doesn't know where it's coming from. Her body can feel she did something bad even if her memories of it aren't there.

I think having a character learn that saving/helping others is more important than your principles is not a bad story. Imho the biggest cop-out of Avatar: the Legend of Aang is that they didn't force his character through having to come to terms that he has to lay down his pacifism and battle/possibly kill Osai. Instead they drew out some BS alternative out of nowhere in the second to last episode...

ANd it has precedence in Trek, with Sisko having to abandon some of his Starfleet principles to see the Federation through the Dominion War.

 

[Jayson1]

For me she would never regain her memories of the murder but it would be more tragic. She would meet the loved ones of the person she killed. She would have to face the shame and feelings over something she will never fully understand what really went down so it brings of the idea of trying to make amends not just for the murder which in itself would have been a accident or a situation where she had no choice, but for making the wrong choice in trying to erase it from her mind to escape the guilt.


Jason

 

[eschaton]

I mean, imagine DS9 if every single episode was from the perspective of Sisko. No other characters ever got "focus episodes." In fact, we never even saw scenes between supporting characters unless they were absolutely needed to move the plot forward. It would get pretty tiresome having Bajorans tell The Emissary how awesome he was all the time, and seeing Sisko single-handedly resolve every crisis of the week.

I guess a fairer comparison would be to a show like Highlander, MacGuyver, or Xena? Heroic lead, with everyone else clearly playing supporting roles. However, I don't recall the same amount of character shilling in series - where everyone either talked up how amazing the main character was, was jealous of the main character, or was secretly in love with them. The mains got to save the day almost every week, but the wider character world was often indifferent or hostile to them.

Keep in mind, I'm just talking about Season 1 of Discovery here. Season 2 had its issues, but it handled Michael much, much better. More show, less tell.

 

[SolarisOne]

Keep in mind, I'm just talking about Season 1 of Discovery here. Season 2 had its issues, but it handled Michael much, much better. More show, less tell.

This. So much this. Besides a (somewhat) more coherent plot, they handled Michael much better than in Season One.

 

[Orphalesion]

Which to me is one of the reason the show would be so much better with Tilly as the lead.

Oh I will definitely say that I like Tilly better than Michael, there's a bunch of characters in Disc (Original Georgiou, Tilly, Stamets) that I would have preferred as leads. But I often prefer side characters over the lead of a series.

 

[Jayson1]

I could see Tilly maybe getting spin-off for Trek's first live action comedy. Especially if Lower Decks proves to be popular. Set it in a slightly alternate timeline and bring Edward from the Tribble short Trek in and then a serious person to be a straight man for them to be funny off. Maybe a dour and super serious Vulcan.


Jason

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The article makes some rather glaring errors.

Yep, I noticed those, too. The editor was clearly asleep at the wheel there.

I always find that an odd decision on Michelle Forbes part, who would say 'no' to a regular paycheck on a popular and successful show playing a role that had lots of potential to show her range and abilities?

Someone who wanted to be working regularly in movies.

Forbes thought she was going to be a movie star. She had already won a daytime Emmy for a soap. I think the only movie people know her from though is Kaliforna were she was nominated for Saturn award.

Considering that her star was on the rise at the time, and she did a movie with popular actors Brad Pitt and David Duchovny, not an unreasonable assumption.

Only by 1996 she would be back to tv with Homicide.

And thank God for THAT! Julianna Cox ROCKS!

Well, there is a scene later in the episode where we see them exiting the holodeck in renaissance costumes, once again talking about men in an attempt to make the earlier scene look organic, but otherwise no other episode before or after show's this side of them.

I think Dax berating Kira for punching out Lancelot was pretty amusing. That definitely wasn't a scene you'd have with Crusher and Troi.

The Bechdel test itself is rather flawed, since a female centred movie like Gravity actually fails it but a movie that is otherwise sexist garbage can theoretically pass just by having two female characters spend ten minutes on a conversation about shoes.

Yeah, Bechdel is just a quick assessment technique that allows one to get started on analyzing how women characters are treated and portrayed.

Well, it never was meant as a foolproof test in the first place. It started out as just a half-joke, but with the intent to get people thinking about the issue.. Which, I suppose, it does.

Oh, I'd say it was a total joke, considering that it was originally done for a comic strip. It certainly had some truth in it, but yeah, some people use it as more of a litmus test than it was intended to be.

I just found Burnham to be a very unlikable character and as the star of the show that was one of the things that put me off.

She lacks the warmth and "sass" of Janeway in Caretaker, the bearing of Picard in EaF, and the passion of Sisko from Emissary--they all had something to them that brought them to life and endeared me to them by the end of their respective pilots.

Wow, I can't say that I ever found Janeway either warm or sassy in the least. On the contrary, I found her cold in the extreme. But then, her character never really clicked for me.

But that's what makes horse races, I guess.

 

[Jayson1]

Kaliforna came out in 1993 so it could have been the project she choose over DS9 which came out in 1993 as well.

Jason

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I've got a comment in the "worst line of dialogue" thread that applies here too.

As to Janeway, I liked her. Then again, I was one of the two people who actually liked Mrs. Columbo. Mulgrew herself hated it, and she was the star.

 

[eschaton]

Kaliforna came out in 1993 so it could have been the project she choose over DS9 which came out in 1993 as well.

Jason

Keep in mind they loved Forbes so much that after she turned down the role that turned into Kira, they offered her another role on VOY - which is why she "went Maquis" in the final season of TNG.

That role turned into Torres.

 

[fireproof78]

Keep in mind they loved Forbes so much that after she turned down the role that turned into Kira, they offered her another role on VOY - which is why she "went Maquis" in the final season of TNG.

That role turned into Torres.

And now I'm sad.

 

[Jayson1]

Keep in mind they loved Forbes so much that after she turned down the role that turned into Kira, they offered her another role on VOY - which is why she "went Maquis" in the final season of TNG.

That role turned into Torres.

I like Torres a lot so much like with Kira I kind of liked who they ended up with in the end but I do wish she had returned to Trek at some point. Maybe she could come back on Picard. What's interesting is just one year later she would be back on tv on Homicide and they never really used her that well. Still it was a high profile show liked by more critics so I doubt one could say it was a bad career move.

Jason

 

[JoseNoodles]

That article was an eye-opener. So much BS from Berman, as if he needed to give us another reason to dislike him.

 

[eschaton]

I like Torres a lot so much like with Kira I kind of liked who they ended up with in the end but I do wish she had returned to Trek at some point. Maybe she could come back on Picard. What's interesting is just one year later she would be back on tv on Homicide and they never really used her that well. Still it was a high profile show liked by more critics so I doubt one could say it was a bad career move.

Jason

As I pointed out in the past, the way Raffi was constructed it could have just as easily been Ro. Same age, same long history with Picard, same attitude, same falling out.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

As to Janeway, I liked her.

So do I. I think it has a lot to do with Mulgrew's portrayal. I still thik some of her decisions were very questionable (and no, I don't mean Tuvix).

A couple of weeks ago, someone on this board posted a wonderful sentence about Janeway, which unfortunately I cannot find anymore. It was along the lines of, she was often badly written which is a shame, because she actually embodied the best traits of Kirk and Picard. (It was much better worded.)

 

[fireproof78]

As I pointed out in the past, the way Raffi was constructed it could have just as easily been Ro. Same age, same long history with Picard, same attitude, same falling out.

True...

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Keep in mind they loved Forbes so much that after she turned down the role that turned into Kira, they offered her another role on VOY - which is why she "went Maquis" in the final season of TNG.

That role turned into Torres.

And now I'm sad.

I'm not. Any universe where Forbes doesn't end up on Homicide is one that I wouldn't want to live in.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not. Any universe where Forbes doesn't end up on Homicide is one that I wouldn't want to live in.

Ro is one of my favorite characters.