Star Trek's Sexist Legacy

[The Wormhole]

The problem with the Aerobic (?) scene isn't what they are doing. It is that this is the only "friendship" scene between them, and all they talk about is men, while male friends talk about women, but also about a wide range of other stuff.

Although, amusingly, DS9 tried a similar thing with Kira and Dax in The Way of the Warrior, which being the episode that introduced Worf can arguably be described as the episode where they were trying to bait the TNG audience to watch. In that episode, we have a scene in which Kira and Dax are wearing bikinis on the holodeck in a spa, chatting about men. The only time we have such a scene between these characters. Well, there is a scene later in the episode where we see them exiting the holodeck in renaissance costumes, once again talking about men in an attempt to make the earlier scene look organic, but otherwise no other episode before or after show's this side of them.

So, apparently the DS9 writers thought they needed their female characters being sexy and gossipy in order to lure in the TNG audience.

 

[Jayson1]

I don't think they were wearing bikinis but just bathing suits. I actually remember one of the writers talking about how it was hard to do sexual things on Trek because of the show being family friendly and this was one of the reasons why the Risa episode of DS9 didn't work that well. It's hard to be sexy when your show is rated PG.

I think when you think about it this might be a reason why the catsuit became so popular. You can't really write overt sexual stuff in these shows so the easiest way to sale sex which is what tv and movies have been doing for ages is to simply go for the most simple answer and that is tight and or revealing clothing without calling attention to how sexual it is. I think this also explains why you have seen so many female doctors and lawyers on shows wearing mini-skirts or showing cleveage when in reality you just don't see that in most professional settings. Maybe skirts but not the kind you see the ladies wearing on tv. All McBeal would never dress like Ally McBeal in real life if All McBeal was a real person.

I also don't think it's a accident that this kind of clothing gave way when the golden age of tv started and shows could be more edgy and push the envelope more so you didn't have to rely on cheap tricks like a catsuit to sale sex. Now you can show nudity or steamy sex scenes instead.


Jason

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Although, amusingly, DS9 tried a similar thing with Kira and Dax in The Way of the Warrior, which being the episode that introduced Worf can arguably be described as the episode where they were trying to bait the TNG audience to watch. In that episode, we have a scene in which Kira and Dax are wearing bikinis on the holodeck in a spa, chatting about men. The only time we have such a scene between these characters. Well, there is a scene later in the episode where we see them exiting the holodeck in renaissance costumes, once again talking about men in an attempt to make the earlier scene look organic, but otherwise no other episode before or after show's this side of them.

So, apparently the DS9 writers thought they needed their female characters being sexy and gossipy in order to lure in the TNG audience.

Yeah, or maybe they were not as progressive as I'd like them to be... Really, passing a simple Bechdel test is not a terribly high bar...

I always wondered why Dax thought Kira would enjoy this pseudo-medieval setting... Coming to think of it, I can't imagine even Dax liking it (provied they played female characters, which they did).

 

[eschaton]

Dax would talk about sex with anyone...so I'm not sure the fact that it was Kira was all that important.

 

[The Wormhole]

Really, passing a simple Bechdel test is not a terribly high bar...

The Bechdel test itself is rather flawed, since a female centred movie like Gravity actually fails it but a movie that is otherwise sexist garbage can theoretically pass just by having two female characters spend ten minutes on a conversation about shoes.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The Bechdel test itself is rather flawed, since a female centred movie like Gravity actually fails it but a movie that is otherwise sexist garbage can theoretically pass just by having two female characters spend ten minutes on a conversation about shoes.

Yeah, Bechdel is just a quick assessment technique that allows one to get started on analyzing how women characters are treated and portrayed. Moreover, it can fail in some circumstances. What happens when Jadzia or Ezri are talking about a past host? How about if it is a conversation with Lenara Kahn? What if the conversation is happening in a professional context, like when Troi or Crusher discusses patients?

 

[Qonundrum]

Yeah, or maybe they were not as progressive as I'd like them to be... Really, passing a simple Bechdel test is not a terribly high bar...

I always wondered why Dax thought Kira would enjoy this pseudo-medieval setting... Coming to think of it, I can't imagine even Dax liking it (provied they played female characters, which they did).

Neither is human but they must have seen enough about human past to romanticize the Renaissance era in the way any of us might go to RenFest, such as to listen to the bawdy bloke in the center of 'town' yelling at everyone to have some beer and try out his nuts while they're at it... and the kiosks that say "take no photos" as they're selling mock-ups of hats of things from shows like Star Trek, which seems odd. How many humans would take interest in another alien species' past, romanticized on top of all that, while ignore the games that squirrels, frogs, and feral cats play instead of reenacting those. Unless you count what happens in certain singles bars bathrooms, as I walked in one once and at just the wrong moment... eww...

But I digress. Playing mid-13th century would be more fun than the far bigger sappy soppy cliche of playing late-20th century. And a lot more appreciated in a sci-fi show as well. Everyone says "Why do they bother liking (20th century whatever) when there's so much more?" So we finally got an answer... even if it wasn't in one of the best episodes...

 

[Nyotarules]

The thing about Mary Sue is that the definition has swayed from how it was originally intended. I think Burnham falls a bit under that original meaning but not so much the new one. There probably needs to be a new term for the newer meaning (and maybe the old) that is applicable to a character regardless of gender.

Mary Sue's do not mutiny, start wars with Klingons, nor rescue dictators from Mirror worlds. Wish folks would stop spouting that crap

I guess I was in that demographic when the 90s show were airing but I never found making those characters look "sexier" actually made them sexier. I always appreciated ladies like Sarah Connor, Ripley, Commander Ivanova, Shane Vansen, Delenn, Samantha Carter. They were smart, capable and took no shit. It's weird to me this idea of trying to pander to males in the complete opposite of what I want and I wonder if it worked or not.
If anything, with Seven I loved seeing her in the Borg suit in flashbacks or alternate versions but I get not doing that makeup every episode. I liked seeing her in the science uniform in Relativity.

The producers were catering to the fantasy they had as young males, plus some males in the audience would have that mindset , it was the 80's and 90's, still the 20th century.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Mary Sue's do not mutiny, start wars with Klingons, nor rescue dictators from Mirror worlds. Wish folks would stop spouting

Isn't there a secondary meaning that is more applicable: female lead character, probably POC, who for irrational reasons make me feel insecurity and rage?

 

[1001001]

Isn't there a secondary meaning that is more applicable: female lead character, probably POC, who for irrational reasons make me feel insecurity and rage?

"...and probably wouldn't have sex with me!"

 

[fireproof78]

"...and probably wouldn't have sex with me!"

Good grief...if I had that attitude that's like 99.99999999999999% of the female population for me

 

[1001001]

I wanted to give the Incel Wing of the Mary Sue Club their due....

 

[Orphalesion]

Mary Sue's do not mutiny, start wars with Klingons, nor rescue dictators from Mirror worlds.

First I agree that Michael is not a Mary-Sue, I think she's about on the same level of prominence and "specialness" as the other leads of the various Star Trek shows.And I enjoy her character.

But technically a Mary-Sue could very much do those things (mutiny, start wars, rescue Mirror Georgiou) the difference is how a Mary-Sue character would go about doing those things, how she'd be treated by the universe and other characters and how the creators would expect the audience to relate to the character.

The whole problem with the whole Mary-Sue thing (aside from it being gendered, when there's just as many male Mary-Sues running about) is that it's very difficult to really pin down what makes a character a Sue, aside from poor writing.
I guess the most universal definition is a character who bends the laws of the universe itself to always be the centre of attention and always be in the right and special to the point that they can break the laws of the universe and logic to get their way. More often than not it's also a character somebody in the creative team uses as a wish-fulfillment character.
Like two professionally written Sues I could name right now are Phoebe in the later seasons of Charmed, when Alyssa Milano could pretty much do whatever she wanted and Bronn from the last couple seasons of GoT when D&D made him their wishful-fulfillment self-insert.
Michael as portrayed on Discovery is far, far away from those levels of BS.

 

[at Quark's]

The Bechdel test itself is rather flawed, since a female centred movie like Gravity actually fails it but a movie that is otherwise sexist garbage can theoretically pass just by having two female characters spend ten minutes on a conversation about shoes.

Well, it never was meant as a foolproof test in the first place. It started out as just a half-joke, but with the intent to get people thinking about the issue.. Which, I suppose, it does.

 

[jaime]

I think the DS9 was also much more serious and professional on set.


I agree a wider range of female characters would have been great. Just like they have with male characters.
The problem with the Aerobic (?) scene isn't what they are doing. It is that this is the only "friendship" scene between them, and all they talk about is men, while male friends talk about women, but also about a wide range of other stuff.
Ugh, my keyboard.

Hmm, isn’t there the famously screen capped ‘Troi and Beverly are clearly on a date here’ moment in ten forward?
Tbh, we hardly ever see anyone doing ‘friend stuff’ in pairs on TNG except occasionally Data and LaForge (the geeks) and the established ‘couples that aren’t really’. There’s the poker games too of course. All other friendships are sort of inferred...we know O’Brien, Keiko and Data are buddies for instance, because the plot of an episode needed them to be.

I feel it’s a bit of a reach tbh...it’s just as logical for Troi and Crusher to be friends because they work closely together, being the heads of medical departments on board ship. (Basically, same reason the geek pair are mates. Probably also why Riker and Worf have their abortive jock relationship...bonding over Klingon food and holodeck exercise routines. Spose that’s a couple more for the ‘ocassional matey things’ list.) They get a fair amount of mileage out of the ‘girly chats’ scenes too, but it really didn’t seem unnatural for TV at the time. If anything, it’s a step forwards, because TNG would have been seen as ‘teenage boys stuff’ but all Trek managed to not live up to that (or down to that) until Enterprise started taking its cues from Stargate.

For me the jury is well and truly out. We already ran over a lot of this in the defunct TNG progressive thread too. It’s way too complex when taking into account what was ‘normal’ at the times these things were made, or the trends and symbolism at the time. (Miniskirts...catsuits...seen differently now. And how often can a dashing Male captain end up with a ripped shirt or in alien bondage gear? And how tight is spandex precisely?)

 

[jaime]

First I agree that Michael is not a Mary-Sue, I think she's about on the same level of prominence and "specialness" as the other leads of the various Star Trek shows.And I enjoy her character.

But technically a Mary-Sue could very much do those things (mutiny, start wars, rescue Mirror Georgiou) the difference is how a Mary-Sue character would go about doing those things, how she'd be treated by the universe and other characters and how the creators would expect the audience to relate to the character.

The whole problem with the whole Mary-Sue thing (aside from it being gendered, when there's just as many male Mary-Sues running about) is that it's very difficult to really pin down what makes a character a Sue, aside from poor writing.
I guess the most universal definition is a character who bends the laws of the universe itself to always be the centre of attention and always be in the right and special to the point that they can break the laws of the universe and logic to get their way. More often than not it's also a character somebody in the creative team uses as a wish-fulfillment character.
Like two professionally written Sues I could name right now are Phoebe in the later seasons of Charmed, when Alyssa Milano could pretty much do whatever she wanted and Bronn from the last couple seasons of GoT when D&D made him their wishful-fulfillment self-insert.
Michael as portrayed on Discovery is far, far away from those levels of BS.

The attachment to Spock is the lynchpin that makes it a hard call. The rest is just the mistake of focusing too tightly on one character for more traditional Trek tastes. I think the actress is great...I think the DSC writing is...not as great.

 

[eschaton]

It's a bit off topic, but the trope that Michael is the closest to is a Creator's Pet. At least in the first season.

The main characteristic of the Creator's Pet is that the writers' focus on him is detrimental to the show. It's not that the parts featuring this character necessarily suck more than the rest, but that so much effort is being directed to him that it detracts from the quality of the series as a whole. It's as if the writers think that there's nothing more important than browbeating the viewers into falling in love with this one character. And it never works. In fact, shilling a character excessively can cause other characters to be drawn into the hatred.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Forbes thought she was going to be a movie star. She had already won a daytime Emmy for a soap. I think the only movie people know her from though is Kaliforna were she was nominated for Saturn award. Well bit roles also in Escape from LA and Hunger Games. I think "Love Bites" which she choose over DS9 is seen as a cult hit. At the time I guess it seemed smart. Only by 1996 she would be back to tv with Homicide.


Jason

Also, according to actors, SciFi was a big no-no for any aspiring young actor at the time; Nana Visitor recenly shared that her agent strongly advised her not to tak that role, even though she was supposed to be the female lead! I'm sure that has changed quite abit.

The DS9 crew were all very friendly but they did form off in cliques. TNG was more like a family but a kind of high society serious family. Like a Sci Fi version of the Royal Tenenbaums.

I just realized you meant the fictional crews, so please ignore my first reply which was about the casts!

 

[Orphalesion]

The attachment to Spock is the lynchpin that makes it a hard call. The rest is just the mistake of focusing too tightly on one character for more traditional Trek tastes. I think the actress is great...I think the DSC writing is...not as great.

But was Michael really that much more focused on than Kirk was in TOS?(he was the focus character most of the time,he was usually in the right, always won and all the positive characters either loved him or learned a lesson about how mistaken they were not to love him) And I mean on DS9 Sisko was the Emissary and eventually revealed to be the literal Christ Child of the Prophets, hand crafted to be the savior of Bajor and the whole Alpha/Beta quadrant, imho that's not any less "super-special" than the revelations about Michael.

I agree that the DISC writing sometimes quite bad, especially in Season 1 (especially because I'm really tired of 'Mystery Box' shows) but even with Michael being the lead, characters like Saru, Stamets, Tilly and Pike were given their prominence and triumphs and allowed to have their lives and interests outside of Michael.

 

[Jayson1]

The difference with Kirk and Burnham is Kirk is just more interesting to follow. Bigger than life persona, no doubt enhanced by Shatner playing him. Has two great characters to play off in Spock and Bones. He can do drama, action and be funny and is kind of a cad. Has a little devil in him so even though he is basically treated as always being right you know he's got a naughty side to him or maybe a cowboy side due to the time in which the character was created. Plus many of the stories are not about him. He is just the person trying to solve a problem.

Burnham though doesn't really have two characters that work nearly as well as Spock and Bones. The stories tend to be about her and not just having her solve a problem which means we get access to her inner self but her inner self is boring new agey trite voiceovers and her not so convincing childhood as Spock's sister that never feels like true canon and instead more like fan fiction. The actress isn't as much fun as Shatner. She isn't bigger than life and she doesn't chew up the scenery. Also the stories just lack the intellectual weight of TOS because they have not been about anything. The show has tapped dance around things like Trumpism and for 5 seconds it looked like it would be about religion and while the show is told from a feminist gaze it doesn't really seem to have much to offer even on that front, more better shows have done.

Jason