Star Trek VI.....not that good

[Praetor]

It was stupid that the some Feds and Klingons would work together so they can still be enemies. That MAKES NO SENSE. Also, why was the Romulan ambassador involved?

I think it would have been neat (and cleared up a lot) if it turned out the Romulan ambassador was the one pulling the strings and neither the Feds nor the Klingons knew of each other in the conspiracy.

There also seemed to be some needless character assassination. Uhura, for example, needing the translation books so we can have a comic interlude. The prejudice stuff didn't bother me. I could see it happening, honestly.

I like your suggestion of the Romulan ambassador manipulating both sides. Perhaps each side would independently be conspiring against the other, and the Romulans would be, sort of, "coordinating" that their efforts worked out?

And while I can live with the Uhura-book thing due to the "universal translator would be recognized" bit, it was a tad unnecessary, and not that funny.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I was under the impression that Cartwright (acting either alone, as part of S31 or under a sooper-secret Federation sanctioned order (my vote's on #2) was the one who manipulated both sides.

The Romulan ambassador would have been involved due to the rising threat of conflict between Qo'nos and Romulus. The Klingon Empire was weak... to see the Federation steamroll the Klingons most likely would have gladdened the Romulans.

To Chang... he struck me as a batshit madman who lives for the fight. He didn't seem to care much about the political situation... only that the life he knew... the Klingons v the Federation...

He may have even known that the conspiracy may fail on some level and that Kirk would make it end the end. He seemed eager - chomping at the bit as it were to face Kirk and he fought him to test his skill as a warrior - to let himself know he was still alive. Makes "to be or not to be" totally badass.

The Federation would stand to benefit most here. I had always imagined the Romulans being heavily exploited in the late 23rd/early 24th century by the other 2 powers during the 3-way cold war, eventually culminating in the Federation totally boning things up and causing the Tomed Incident (my own speculation).

 

[Praetor]

That seems like a fair assessment, Jitty. In that light, it might make more sense. But just how were the Romulans manipulated? Did they agree to side with the Federation, or did they lie and agree to side with both sides? It seems that an alliance is the only way they would have been involved.

"Klingon Academy" gives more insight into Chang and most fundamental Klingons. It posits that these Klingons believe the Federation subverts and conquers cultures by homogenizing and assimilating them for their resources,"empowering" the weak through diplomacy, and generally engaging in Orwellian operations which the Klingons view as dishonorable and against their warriors' code. (The Klingons also view the Romulans as an Empire in decline, and see their sneakiness as a "contagion" for which they should avoid contact.)

Chang basically believes that war is inevitable with the Federation because of their conflicting philosophies. Yes, he lives for battle, but he's not really batshit crazy per se. He's just convinced he's right, in every way.

 

[trevanian]

Overall, I like the film, but it is riddled with plot holes and a shaky structure.

It was stupid that the some Feds and Klingons would work together so they can still be enemies. That MAKES NO SENSE. Also, why was the Romulan ambassador involved?

it all makes perfect sense as long as you pretend these people are contemporary. Nothing matters as much as perpetuating what keeps you in power, and in this case, arms and armaments are a big part of that. Change is their enemy.

The TUC script made mention of a major arms broker being present for the operation retrieve meeting, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the film (due to GR?)

Try watching THE PACKAGE, which came out pre-TUC. You have Russians and Americans conspiring to kill Gorbachev during a US visit. They even manage to wrap an Oswald-like patsy into the plot, it is pretty adroit, not the mystery with huge terrible plot holes that fills most of TUC.

 

[Praetor]

I shall have to watch "The Package." Sounds interesting.

 

[Bones2]

I probably can't add much to the discussion, but out of the Trek films, there are three that I love: V, VI, and VII. TWOK is probably my favourite, but these three touch me in a special way (I know that sounds bad, but I can't find a better way of phrasing it).

 

[KimMH]

Kirk and Bones in prison on Rura Penthe was stupid - they were too far past their primes to have survived there. The idea of the end of the Cold War is what gives this one resonance for me. My husband was stationed in Germany when the Berlin Wall came down and everyone was euphoric. It felt like the dawning of a new day. I know it sounds cliched but walking down the street you could smell hope. Kirk's understanding that a new order has arrived is hope that even old dogs learn new tricks. Spock's determination to wage Peace when it may seem most advantageous to wage war is completely characteristic of him and only one that makes him such an admirable, emulatable person.

 

[Admiral Pike]

It think it has finally dawned on me what a pile of shit this movie really is. For the longest of time I tried to stand by the the uncritical fan view that this is among the great trek gems. But with the outdated political allegories, the many plot holes, and the horrible character assassinations of the big three, it really looks a lot more like a "Nemesis" than a "Khan".

There's just so many awful moments, and virtually no redeeming value whatsoever (unlike STV), that I have to call it for what it is: the worst of the worst.

And finally, what really settles it for me, is that as I'm about to watch the TOS movies again, I realize that this is the only one I have ZERO interest in rewatching.

 

[Myasishchev]

I love TUC, but the central conceit of the story, that Starfleet and Klingons hardliners would work together to keep their cold war going, is hard to swallow. I wish they'd just chosen on or the other--Starfleet's side seems there mainly to give Spock something to do.

Why is that hard to swallow? People do fear change, There is alot of hate and bad blood on both sides and it's not hard to imagine that people on both sides who didn't want this peace to happen would go to any length to make sure it didn't happen. There are many real life examples in our own earths history of things like this happening.

Name one. I am unfamiliar with any situation where elements on two sides of a war have clandestinely assisted one another in keeping that war ongoing merely for its own sake. You might bring up condottieri, who as mercenaries are not analogous in the slightest; Alcibiades held no allegiance to anyone except himself, and didn't care about the war per se.

The closest analogue might be communists who purposefully sabotaged less extreme elements of the leftist movement in order to magnify the "contradictions inherent in a capitalist system" and hasten its downfall and the promised utopia to come afterward. But they didn't work directly with establishment forces.

The Romulan ambassador would have been involved due to the rising threat of conflict between Qo'nos and Romulus. The Klingon Empire was weak... to see the Federation steamroll the Klingons most likely would have gladdened the Romulans.

Why? The Chinese would have been appalled to see the Americans steamroll their rival the Soviet Union, just as responsible decisionmakers in Britain were appalled to see Prussia steamroll their ancient enemy France, and decided to assist the latter the next two times the former came to call. If Romulan statesmanship has any rational basis, they'd have been giving massive assistance to the Klingons to prevent their collapse before any Federation invasion.

 

[Praetor]

...unless the Romulans had come to see the Klingons as a worse threat.

 

[Data Holmes]

...unless the Romulans had come to see the Klingons as a worse threat.

I always saw the romulians as playing the chess board.

This whole thing was a power grab by them.

I see them as having spies on vulcan so they would have known about spock's work with Gorkon and sarek's influence. This gave them a tie to Kirk, with whom the klingons already had bad blood (remember trek IV "There shall be no peace, as long as kirk lives). Now, you have a romulan/Federation friendship at this point, no doubt from the work by the romulian and federation ambassadors at nimbus 3.

So, the romulian ambassader gets chummy with Cartwright and he gets him "into the room" with the president. So, while natules is working as intermedatry for the hardliners in SF to talk to the hard liners in the KDF (both were fearing the end of their jobs... some no doubt saw their jobs as their life) He was also working to become the "counter voice" against sarak with the fed president.


You see, if the klingons and the Federation were at war it would place the romulians in a prime position to hit both after they bleed each other down and take them both out.

 

[Praetor]

^Exactly. The Klingons might have been a more immediate threat to the Romulans, given their more aggressive stance, but both of them were adversaries. What better than to let them slug it out and play both sides for what they could, then sweep up in the ensuing vacuum?

 

[Myasishchev]

...unless the Romulans had come to see the Klingons as a worse threat.

Are we talking about an actual Fed-Kling war here? The only way the Klings would be considered the more dire threat was if they were on the verge of destroying/dealing a major blow to the Federation.

In a non-ideological context, any given power is playing what is effectively a zero-sum game in which they seek to increase their own power and deny power to others.

Sure, in the short term the Roms would gain relative to their adversaries, being at peace themselves as the Feds and Klings sapped the strength of the other. But in the long term, presumably the victor of the war would turn the balance of power in their favor--either directly, by exploiting the resource base of the vanquished, or indirectly, by being able to concentrate all their forces against the single remaining foe.

Now, if we're just talking about the Romulans inciting Fed-Kling war, sure, I can get behind that.

Incidentally, I didn't mind the Klingon-dictionary-translating either, but it made no sense that it wasn't at least done by computerized search. I get that a UT-generated response to the Klingon computers could've been recognized as artificial, but did they have to do it by book?

 

[clint g]

You see, if the klingons and the Federation were at war it would place the romulians in a prime position to hit both after they bleed each other down and take them both out.

Which is exactly what they try to do in TNG, so it shouldn't be too shocking that it is how things worked in TOS times

 

[Broccoli]

Try watching THE PACKAGE, which came out pre-TUC. You have Russians and Americans conspiring to kill Gorbachev during a US visit. They even manage to wrap an Oswald-like patsy into the plot, it is pretty adroit, not the mystery with huge terrible plot holes that fills most of TUC.

Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, why were the Russians in that movie wanting Gorbachev dead?

See, I can see the enemies working together to take down what they believe is a bigger enemy. However, I just find it hard to swallow that two enemies would work together for the sheer purpose of wanting to continue to fight one another. I'm not saying it can't happen. I just find it hard to believe.

 

[Praetor]

...unless the Romulans had come to see the Klingons as a worse threat.

Are we talking about an actual Fed-Kling war here? The only way the Klings would be considered the more dire threat was if they were on the verge of destroying/dealing a major blow to the Federation.

In a non-ideological context, any given power is playing what is effectively a zero-sum game in which they seek to increase their own power and deny power to others.

Sure, in the short term the Roms would gain relative to their adversaries, being at peace themselves as the Feds and Klings sapped the strength of the other. But in the long term, presumably the victor of the war would turn the balance of power in their favor--either directly, by exploiting the resource base of the vanquished, or indirectly, by being able to concentrate all their forces against the single remaining foe.

Now, if we're just talking about the Romulans inciting Fed-Kling war, sure, I can get behind that.

I was thinking that the Romulans might see the Klingons as more of a threat since the Klingons are openly aggressive and more unpredictable than the Federation, the Klingons perhaps even moreso if they have a "cornered animal" thing going on. It's my inference that the Romulans probably buddied up to the Federation after their alliance with the Klingons was kaput because they believed they had bitten off more than they could chew by provoking the Klingons.

The Klingons and Romulans probably saw each other as vaguely kindred spirits at first - honor-bound and Federation-hating - but things probably soured the more they learned about each other. I think it's practically a foregone conclusion that this alliance was one of convenience to start with, and that each group probably thought they were using the other, at least a little. Both Empires were apparently resource-poor compared to the Federation, who they probably saw as the cool kids who were very good at keeping all the good stuff from them, and so they pooled their resources to mount a formidable threat against them and anyone else who got in their way. Some have said that the Romulans offered the Klingons their new and improved cloaks and other tech, and the Klingons offered the Romulans ships and materiel. This works for me, since the Romulans seem likely to have comparitive advances in tech and the Klingons seem likely to have comparitive advances in production.

For my money, the Romulans eventually saw the Klingons as really, really stupid, and therefore likely to foolishly commit resources into a conflict for the sake of "glory" even if it meant that they would drive themselves to extinction in the process. The Klingons in turn came to see the Romulans as dishonorable because they are chess-players rather than quick to aggressive action, and no doubt saw the Romulans' reticence to engage in open conflicts against their mutual enemies as cowardly and a betrayal of honor. No doubt, big stuff like this led to little conflicts and eventual skirmishes, which in turn accelerated the dissolution of their alliance.

In turn, the Klingons probably feared appearing weak because of this before the Federation and took a more aggressive stance. The Romulans, naturally, decided that this was the time to butter up the UFP, if not for making real advances, if only to keep them from befriending the Klingons, and in turn maybe make the Klingons that much more reluctant to negotiate with the UFP and more willing to fling themselves futilely at the Federation in an act of "honor."

But Romulans inciting a Klingon-Federation war? Yeah, that too. Nanclus was definitely begging for the two of them to clean their clocks. "There will never be a better time." Pragmatic, indeed. Reminds me why I like them.

The Khitomer Accords were probably the worst thing the Romulans could have predicted - suddenly, my two worst enemies are allies. No wonder there was a Tomed Incident.

 

[Myasishchev]

I like that analysis of the Rom-Kling alliance. I can see it falling apart just like that.

I like to think the Klingon battlecruisers were better ships than what the Romulans had on hand, but not so much out of technology but resource poverty. I figure the Romulan D7s were powered by Klingon antimatter, a step up from the fusion-powered BoP. But then they went back to alternative fuels after the alliance went kaput.

But are the Klingons really terrible technologists? It appears so in TNG--the Klingon educational system looks almost nonexistent and geared largely toward hitting people with dull swords--but they have some things the Romulans don't have until later in TOS.

I wonder if the Klingon mind probe, seen in Errand of Mercy (although the Feds also seemed to have similar technology in early TOS) was their invention, which they gave to the Romulans, or the other way around. I think it must've been a Klingon innovation, as a mind probe would've come in very handy for the Romulan commander in The Enterprise Incident. I wouldn't mind vetting my potential mates with one.

Actually, and this just occurred to me, given the huge lead time on building a battlecruiser, we have to assume that some kind of Romulan-Klingon understanding far predates the Where No Man Has Gone Before, and perhaps even predates The Cage!

 

[Praetor]

I like that analysis of the Rom-Kling alliance. I can see it falling apart just like that.

Thank you! Coming from you, that means a lot.

Alas, I cannot take all credit. A lot of my interpolations were based on assertions from the "Klingon Academy" video game manual, which besides being an awesome game offers some insights on the matter from the Klingon perspective. Insights that, I must say, ring very true coming from such a "stupid" people, particularly in regard to the Federation's Orwellianism. Example: the Klingons compare the Federation Diplomatic Service to the Tal Shiar and their own intelligence forces.

I like to think the Klingon battlecruisers were better ships than what the Romulans had on hand, but not so much out of technology but resource poverty. I figure the Romulan D7s were powered by Klingon antimatter, a step up from the fusion-powered BoP. But then they went back to alternative fuels after the alliance went kaput.

I agree with that assessment. Based on the apparent longevity of the D7 spaceframe (the basic shape of which the KA manual suggests had been in service for over 100 years as of 2290, even before ENT made that accidentally canon) I would say the Klingons design their ships with a certain ruggedness that is difficult to beat. I imagine that they Romulans might have experimented with M/AM a bit before, then got their hands on some specs if not functional copies form the Klingons (the KA manual suggests that both sides gave each other outdated schematics), and eventually decided that their lack of access to antimatter or antimatter generation capablities mandated they develop even more exotic power generation methods. (In this context, the ginormous mining ship Narada makes a bit of sense, doesn't it?)

Fight smarter, not harder.

But are the Klingons really terrible technologists? It appears so in TNG--the Klingon educational system looks almost nonexistent and geared largely toward hitting people with dull swords--but they have some things the Romulans don't have until later in TOS.

Funny you mention that, as KA addreses this a bit too. The titular Academy in question is not so much a Starfleet Academy, as it is a school for training starship commanders, founded only a few years before because General Chang (among others) realized basically that they didn't have enough competent starship commanders and their attrition rates were too high. (In other words, their opponents were apparently far better trained than they were, which seems to validate your theory.)

It would appear that the Klingons have no regular Academy, which makes a lot of sense given that it would be expected that any "real" Klingon would already be a proficient warrior. Therefore, most of their "army" would simply be enlistees who had already learned what they had learned from their families or perhaps private tutors. I can see there being private "warrior schools" rather than a public education system in the Klingon Empire. Clearly, DS9 suggests that aristocracy and family connections played a big role in advancement in the KDF.

I wonder if the Klingon mind probe, seen in Errand of Mercy (although the Feds also seemed to have similar technology in early TOS) was their invention, which they gave to the Romulans, or the other way around. I think it must've been a Klingon innovation, as a mind probe would've come in very handy for the Romulan commander in The Enterprise Incident. I wouldn't mind vetting my potential mates with one.

The mind probe does seem more Romulan. It might be nice to attribute it to the Romulans, but of course the real reason it seems so misplaced is the "honor transplant" that took place between the Romulans and Klingons between TOS and TNG. I could go either way. We have that techie Klingon that Vaughn Armstrong played in "Endgame" so we might conceive that there's always been an element of Klingon civilization that might be less honorable than the mainstream would have us believe. Then again, the Federation seemed to have it too, so maybe the Klingons stole it or copied them.

Actually, and this just occurred to me, given the huge lead time on building a battlecruiser, we have to assume that some kind of Romulan-Klingon understanding far predates the Where No Man Has Gone Before, and perhaps even predates The Cage!

Okay, you've made me pull out the manual. The manual speculates:

ROMULAN

The Romulan Star Empire was first encountered by Klingon vessels in 1600 IR [2225 AD, so well before "The Cage."] Up until 1643 [2268] little was known of the Romulans, other than they are treacherous and fight dishonorably from the shadows. This changed when we entered into an alliance and technical exchange program with the Romulans. The alliance formed as a response to the ever-burgeoning political and economic strengh of the Federation - ushered in an era of relative peace between our two Empires.

We learned much from our new allies, as did they, and that has beecome the source of politicla strain on the alliance. The Romulans are a proud people who are in the same situation as we. Sorely lacking resources, they must expand or perish. Often, their need to expand has resulted in armed incursions into Klingon space. This has led to many clashes even after the alliance was formed, yet the overriding threat of the Federation has prevented escalation of hostilities and the alliance remains tenuously intact. Their need to expand, compounded by their devios, secretive, and dishonorable nature, has led to mistrust between our two governments. Agents of the Klingon Imperial Intelligence monitoring the Romulans have recently reported the Romulans are running dangerously low on dilithium. More ominous still, the Romulan Imperial Navy has conducted numerous secret research projects in violation of the technology exchange treaty between both Empires. Imperial Intelligence has yet to discover the exact nature of these projects, but efforts to do so continue.

Obviously alluding to the quantum singularity technology at the end, there. The writeup goes on to mention that Romulan technology is similar, but that they have slightly inferior warp drive capability "as an intended result of out-dated schematics and data given to them in the technological exchange."

This might imply that the Romulans did not, as was often thought by many, have warp drive prior to the exchange. I choose to interpret it to mean that the Klingons just had better warp drive, likely because they had access to more resources. This, again, makes the apparent Romulan "Fight smarter, not harder" mantra make more sense. It also mentions that Romulans tend to forsake strong shields in favor of hull strength and maneuverability to make hit-and-run cloak attacks more feasible. Perhaps power and shields are the primary Klingon technological advantage? The manual does indeed suggest the Klingons had no cloaks before the alliance with the Romulans.

In any case, I certainly don't adhere to this as a bible, but I've always been of the opinion that battlecruisers probably don't take all that long to build, and that the Klingons probably handed off a few partially complete spaceframes to the Romulans, which the Romulans in turn fitted out with their own weapons and the latest cloaks, and of course painted, which were then immediately rushed to the Federation border as a tactic to produce the reaction of "Holy shit, the Romulans and the Klingons are working together!"

 

[Brady]

I'm glad I have never really cared for Wrath of Khan and therefore do not fall into the "It sucks because it is not exactly like Wrath of Khan." category of Star Trek fans.

 

[Praetor]

I wouldn't call that a completely fair statement. For many people, TWOK is the high water mark, yes, but "Nemesis" was almost exactly like "Wrath of Khan" yet it is almost universally reviled.