Could Star Trek V been saved?
- Thread starter tim0122
- Start date
I don't think it could have been saved. The fatal flaws are too many antagonists and the complete lack of resolution. Sybok (antagonist #1) takes everyone to "God" (antagonist #2 and has been trapped for he knows how long) who gets frustrated in just a few minutes with a single question. This all powerful being is then taken out with a single disruptor blast - so about as powerful as a shuttlecraft, and somehow (off camera) Kordd convinces antagonist #3, Klaa to not only stop chasing Kirk, but to allow Spock sit in the shootin' chair.
I do appreciate the artistic value of what you are saying. I did not really like Kirk cheating on a test and having a son he had mostly avoided much either, but over time came to accept that as part of the story.
I think the reason that I'm not fond of the idea of McCoy having an affair, partly to do with the second post I quoted here. For quick, obvious, show-stopping drama, an affair on the part of a main character would fit the bill, and drive an episode around it. It does however, run the risk of being cliche in the sense that it is a very obvious reason for divorce. Some other reason might be more interesting if the theme is to be spread over seasons and seasons of episodes for motivation, and slowly explained. Or, for compromise, the idea that McCoy was cheated on allows for the same types of themes without adding a major flaw to a main character.
None of this is to suggest your timeline is wrong or not valuable. Your reasons make sense, it just would not be the version version of the character I'd want to see.
I had forgotten about that this part of the writer's guide. Which version (from which season) is that from? Was it part of McCoy's character from the beginning?
Building of the idea of including the explanation given in the 2009 film, maybe there was no cheating and his wife just left him to take his money? (I mean, since they don't use money, his planet and his stuff lol!)
How about M113 was actually a McCoy property, and she took it and left with Crater? There are private areas of Montana being used for dinosaur digs hoping there might be money in what was found. Maybe even though she used him he still thinks fondly of the time they had? That sound interesting for an ongoing theme in episodes to me
This post reminds me of how utterly pointless Klaa and his BoP are to the story. They literally exist only so that Spock can have a dramatic moment shooting God, because Kirk isn’t afraid of dying as long as his buddies are around to save his ass. Of course, Scotty could have easily done that in orbit on the Enterprise, but apparent Scotty isn’t as buddy buddy to Kirk as Spock is.
Probably because of the perception of needed Star Trek elements for the recipe:
- Captain Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE
- Unknown alien.
- Klingons.
Then profits will flow as the spice does.
It just set up pointless drama. About 2 seconds of "they just blew up our transporters but we'll just ask nicely if we can borrow theirs through the power of friendship" or something.
Just that subplot is dumb. Klaa's mission wasn't "sanctioned" but he's all of a sudden deferential to authority?
Hmmmm....
TMP:
- Admiral Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE
- Unknown alien: V'Ger
- Klingons. (Electricuted in the intro)
- Admiral Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE
- Unknown alien: Khaaaaan/Earworms?
- Klingons (Simulated in the intro)
- Captain Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE
- Unknown alien: Rapidly Aging Spock
- Klingons (Exploded, Mordored)
- Admiral and Captain Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE-A!
- Unknown alien: Whale Detector
- Klingons (The Ambassador)
- Captain Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE-A!
- Unknown alien: God
- Klingons (Pointless)
- Captain Kirk, and crew.
- The USS ENTERPRISE-A!
- Unknown alien. (Sexy Shapeshifter)
- Klingons. (Quoting Shakespeare)
To be fair, STIII sets up the idea that Klingons are just flying aimlessly around in their BoPs, picking fights whenever they feel like it, and answering to no one. STV just continued with that premise, to a lesser degree.
True - they were a little like pirates in the 80s, before TNG made them to be a biker gang.
I don’t buy into the idea that Kirk not succumbing to Sybok’s influence was about Shatner trying to make Kirk look awesome.
1. Go back and watch TOS. Kirk was often the only one to not succumb to some influence. Look at This Side of Paradise, he’s the only person in the entire crew who breaks the spores hold on his own. Look at Naked Time where again, he is able to fight through the infection where even Spock could not do so on his own. He’s the last person to lose consciousness on the bridge in Space Seed. He’s the last person to lose consciousness as part of the landing party in Return of the Archons. He’s the one to remain in control during the events of Day of the Dove, while Spock and Scotty almost pummel each other. He overcomes the magic tears of Elaan of Troyius even though they are said to have no cure.
2. Kirk doesn’t do anything special or particularly heroic with Sybok. He has an opportunity, unlike most of the others in the command crew, to witness Sybok’s technique being used on McCoy and Spock and he sees it for what it is, and he simply says “nah…not today bro.” It’s not as if Sybok used the mind meld technique on Kirk and he alone was superhero enough to resist. The dialogue where Sybok says “This is who they are….didn't you know that?” And Kirk quietly replies with “No I didn’t” sets that whole idea up. He doesn’t want anything to do with it.
3. Spock is actually the only one who truly resists the technique. He simply brushes it off when Sybok invites him and McCoy to join him as they prepare to enter the barrier.
4. The overarching theme in TFF is that the friendship between these men is the real power. This is actually woven throughout the whole film and stated explicitly more than once. It’s not about Kirk being awesome, it’s about the Trio being awesome.
5. There are plenty of moments of vulnerability where Kirk isn’t awesome. These are pointed out above.
And in fairness, at the end of the day, Kirk is the fucking star. He’s always driving the action, leading the way, rising above and solving the problems. This isn’t a new phenomenon. Starship captains are actually supposed to be superhuman. They represent the very best of the best of humanity.
I don’t find anything* about Kirk’s behaviors or capabilities in this film to be out of character with what has been established.
*Climbing El Captain is absolutely ridiculous though….THAT I will absolutely concede.
1. Go back and watch TOS. Kirk was often the only one to not succumb to some influence. Look at This Side of Paradise, he’s the only person in the entire crew who breaks the spores hold on his own. Look at Naked Time where again, he is able to fight through the infection where even Spock could not do so on his own. He’s the last person to lose consciousness on the bridge in Space Seed. He’s the last person to lose consciousness as part of the landing party in Return of the Archons. He’s the one to remain in control during the events of Day of the Dove, while Spock and Scotty almost pummel each other. He overcomes the magic tears of Elaan of Troyius even though they are said to have no cure.
2. Kirk doesn’t do anything special or particularly heroic with Sybok. He has an opportunity, unlike most of the others in the command crew, to witness Sybok’s technique being used on McCoy and Spock and he sees it for what it is, and he simply says “nah…not today bro.” It’s not as if Sybok used the mind meld technique on Kirk and he alone was superhero enough to resist. The dialogue where Sybok says “This is who they are….didn't you know that?” And Kirk quietly replies with “No I didn’t” sets that whole idea up. He doesn’t want anything to do with it.
3. Spock is actually the only one who truly resists the technique. He simply brushes it off when Sybok invites him and McCoy to join him as they prepare to enter the barrier.
4. The overarching theme in TFF is that the friendship between these men is the real power. This is actually woven throughout the whole film and stated explicitly more than once. It’s not about Kirk being awesome, it’s about the Trio being awesome.
5. There are plenty of moments of vulnerability where Kirk isn’t awesome. These are pointed out above.
And in fairness, at the end of the day, Kirk is the fucking star. He’s always driving the action, leading the way, rising above and solving the problems. This isn’t a new phenomenon. Starship captains are actually supposed to be superhuman. They represent the very best of the best of humanity.
I don’t find anything* about Kirk’s behaviors or capabilities in this film to be out of character with what has been established.
*Climbing El Captain is absolutely ridiculous though….THAT I will absolutely concede.
Actually, McCoy resists as well. He is emotionally overwhelmed for a moment, but he quickly stands with his friends. No one does anything to "release" him from Sybok's hold, but he still chooses to stay with Kirk and Spock.
You are welcome to interpret the film any way you like. I've made my feelings about TFF very clear and don't feel the need to defend them further.
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I don't mind infidelity being a reason for the breakup of the McCoy marriage, but why does Bones need to be the one cheating? Why cast him in that light? That doesn't make him "interesting." That makes him a shit to a large segment of the audience.
Besides, Gene Roddenberry wouldn't make that a negative reason for them. It would make them "free" as a couple. Much like when he married Majel. "We have our own agreement."
Well, the angry ones who weren't interested in peace anyways. Kruge was on his own mission to get the Genesis information and did state he was acting "for the preservation of our race." That was also a fear they had in TUC. And Star Trek IV had made it clear that "there will be no peace as long as Kirk lives." They probably put a price on his head at that point, which they should have carried over into TFF. At least that would have given Klaa something of a stronger reason to go after Kirk, other than He's The Greatest Warrior Of The Federation.
Other than Gorkon and his daughter, I doubt any Klingons wanted peace with the Federation.
The problem with the Klingons, and Romulans for that matter, is that we saw only one small segment of their societies: representatives of the active military. Thats a very small segment of a civilization as a whole. And as such thats likely not truly representative of much of the people.
If we use human societies as a basic template then we know for a fact that an entire species doesn’t think and feel exactly the same way, about pretty much anything. So there are countless Klingons, and Romulans, for whom we have no idea how they feel about humans and the Federation. Billions of people going about their lives with likely little knowledge or understanding of whats happening beyond their world or even within their own government.
If we use human societies as a basic template then we know for a fact that an entire species doesn’t think and feel exactly the same way, about pretty much anything. So there are countless Klingons, and Romulans, for whom we have no idea how they feel about humans and the Federation. Billions of people going about their lives with likely little knowledge or understanding of whats happening beyond their world or even within their own government.
Only two out of billions? Statistically unlikely.
Statistics only work with real people. The Klingons are a fake alien race subject to the whims of scriptwriters.
Which makes arguing any opinion or decision made by the characters in the stories moot.
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