Star Trek VI.....not that good

[Jolantru]

As some of you know, I've been going back and rewatching all of the old films. Some of these films, I've not seen in several years. The last time I watched Star Trek VI, was probably when it came out on Video Cassette back in the early 1990's.

When I first watched Star Trek VI, I thought it was a fine send off and one of the better films of the franchise. Watching it now, I just find that the movie does not have the long lasting quality that TWOK, or some other Trek movies have.

To make the comparison, when I started the thread, "Could Star Trek V be salvaged?", I said that Star Trek V had a great idea wrapped in poor execution. By contrast, TUC is a wonderfully executed mediocre story.

The big problem I see watching it all these years later, is rather than focusing on the characters we all have come to love, the story is completly focused on the Klingons and the peace summit. The trio of Kirk, Spock and Bones, are separated through most of the movie, and DeForrest Kelly in his last appearance as the character McCoy was literally given nothing to do, except for fail to save a Klingon from cardiac arrest, and getting taken prisoner....oh and loading a special gas sensing torpedo, because Doctors do that alot you know?

I was extremely upset because, I relly remember enjoying this movie in the theaters. I saw it my Junior year in college, and remember how excited I was. This was before all the internet spoiler rumors, so I had no idea what to expect. Was Captain Kirk going to die? (which they hinted at in the trailers).

I think this film suffers from what all of the TNG movies suffer from, and that is from a self indulgent gratification of trekkies. All the lame cameos, including Christian Slater (who was the Zach Efrom of the early 90's) walking in to wake up Captain Sulu.

The worst part of all, is I thought several of the actors, (most notably Doohan and Nichols) were almost caricatures of themselves. Trying to show their prejudices, it felt contrived. Like when Scotty says, "they don't feel compassion like we do." Funny that he says that line to Spock who supresses his emotions.

My feeling before watching the movies again, was that TUC was better than TSFS. However, after reviewing the films, I'd have to say that TSFS was a better film, because I can rewatch it, and it feels the same.

I will also say that the film score is one of the worst in Trek lore, only trailing Generations, in that department. The score is something that should be heard in a film like Aliens, not Star Trek.

 

[balls]

As some of you know, I've been going back and rewatching all of the old films. Some of these films, I've not seen in several years. The last time I watched Star Trek VI, was probably when it came out on Video Cassette back in the early 1990's.

When I first watched Star Trek VI, I thought it was a fine send off and one of the better films of the franchise. Watching it now, I just find that the movie does not have the long lasting quality that TWOK, or some other Trek movies have.

To make the comparison, when I started the thread, "Could Star Trek V be salvaged?", I said that Star Trek V had a great idea wrapped in poor execution. By contrast, TUC is a wonderfully executed mediocre story.

The big problem I see watching it all these years later, is rather than focusing on the characters we all have come to love, the story is completly focused on the Klingons and the peace summit. The trio of Kirk, Spock and Bones, are separated through most of the movie, and DeForrest Kelly in his last appearance as the character McCoy was literally given nothing to do, except for fail to save a Klingon from cardiac arrest, and getting taken prisoner....oh and loading a special gas sensing torpedo, because Doctors do that alot you know?

I was extremely upset because, I relly remember enjoying this movie in the theaters. I saw it my Junior year in college, and remember how excited I was. This was before all the internet spoiler rumors, so I had no idea what to expect. Was Captain Kirk going to die? (which they hinted at in the trailers).

I think this film suffers from what all of the TNG movies suffer from, and that is from a self indulgent gratification of trekkies. All the lame cameos, including Christian Slater (who was the Zach Efrom of the early 90's) walking in to wake up Captain Sulu.

The worst part of all, is I thought several of the actors, (most notably Doohan and Nichols) were almost caricatures of themselves. Trying to show their prejudices, it felt contrived. Like when Scotty says, "they don't feel compassion like we do." Funny that he says that line to Spock who supresses his emotions.

My feeling before watching the movies again, was that TUC was better than TSFS. However, after reviewing the films, I'd have to say that TSFS was a better film, because I can rewatch it, and it feels the same.

I will also say that the film score is one of the worst in Trek lore, only trailing Generations, in that department. The score is something that should be heard in a film like Aliens, not Star Trek.

I posted a similar view about a year ago and I want to warn you to be prepared for the backlash that you may receive because of your views. I'm with you 100% on this one. I agree that TSFS is superior in its characters and story. "Right standard rudder"? Are you kidding me? Phasers in the galley. Books on the bridge. I get the Cold War coming to an end analogy. I just don't have it on the top of my Trek films list. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and I hope that the responses you get generate a thoughtful discussion.

 

[Gary Sebben]

Yeah, long lasting like TWOK and Khan's platinum blond mullet.

But joking aside, I disagree with you on most of what your saying. This movie gives depth to these characters by giving them a prejudice that makes lots of sense, but that we never really expected. A prejudice so strong that it splits Kirk and Spock apart. And the fact that they all can get over it by the end shows a growth we've never really seen in these archetypal characters. This is Trek at its best.

And actually, Scotty said, "They don't care about life the way we do". Which would apply to Vulcans.

 

[Jolantru]

Yeah, long lasting like TWOK and Khan's platinum blond mullet.

But joking aside, I disagree with you on most of what your saying. This movie gives depth to these characters by giving them a prejudice that makes lots of sense, but that we never really expected. A prejudice so strong that it splits Kirk and Spock apart. And the fact that they all can get over it by the end shows a growth we've never really seen in these archetypal characters. This is Trek at its best.

And actually, Scotty said, "They don't care about life the way we do". Which would apply to Vulcans.

I agree that them being prejudice makes sense, and it works with Kirk. It just didn't work with Scotty, Uhura and some of the others. As I said Doohan came off as more of a caricature of himself.

 

[Jolantru]

I posted a similar view about a year ago and I want to warn you to be prepared for the backlash that you may receive because of your views. I'm with you 100% on this one. I agree that TSFS is superior in its characters and story. "Right standard rudder"? Are you kidding me? Phasers in the galley. Books on the bridge. I get the Cold War coming to an end analogy. I just don't have it on the top of my Trek films list. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and I hope that the responses you get generate a thoughtful discussion.

Yeah the books thing kills me. I realize that Enterprise, was made well after this movie came out, but I even remember an episode where Hoshi had to self translate, in some language that wasn't known to anyone, and she didn't have to resort to pulling out a copy of Strong's English-Klingon third edition.

 

[Gary Sebben]

I don't understand how Scotty and Uhura were any weaker than usual. I think it makes sense that if Kirk is prejudice then there's really no hope for the rest of the crew. In fact, knowing how much of a good old southern bigot McCoy could be in the series its shocking that he's the only one with a level head. But seriously, expecting Scotty and Uhura to be fleshed out more than they were is silly. Previous movies didn't give them much more to do and TOS is really only about the big three no matter what the other actors may wish.

 

[Jolantru]

I don't understand how Scotty and Uhura were any weaker than usual. I think it makes sense that if Kirk is prejudice then there's really no hope for the rest of the crew. In fact, knowing how much of a good old southern bigot McCoy could be in the series its shocking that he's the only one with a level head. But seriously, expecting Scotty and Uhura to be fleshed out more than they were is silly. Previous movies didn't give them much more to do and TOS is really only about the big three no matter what the other actors may wish.

I'm not expecting that. I'm expecting that they give their usual performance, when I think it was probably among their worst. Especially for Nichols, who probably had her best performance in TSFS.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I've said some of the same things. Good to see at least one person agrees with me. I usually get nothing but arguments about this movie. I like the beginning and end portions with all the nice character moments as the crew is together...what ruined it for me was the middle section with Kirk and McCoy in prison. I don't like them being separated from the crew, and I don't think they're given anything interesting to do while they are separated. It's because of the weak middle that I consider this movie inferior to "Star Trek II" and "Star Trek IV" which are much more consistent overall (although "IV" starts a little slow and sputters out a bit towards the end).

 

[Admiral Pike]

I agree 100%.

TUC is definitely second worst of the TOS movies, right next to ST:V.

Hell, I think I would've preferred if ST:V was the last of the TOS movies, at least that one had some good character moments.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Here's what I wrote about TUC in the ratings thread...

"The only really bad TOS film. They twisted the characters to suit the story, the Enterprise crew were bigots all of a sudden. Meyer's martial Hornblower tendencies went over the top in this film, very Diane Carey. It's ridden with plot holes to a mind numbing extent, and the whole glasnost perestroika allegory means that this film has dated like none of the others."

Fun at the time, now it's just bad.

 

[spaceballone]

I've said some of the same things. Good to see at least one person agrees with me. I usually get nothing but arguments about this movie. I like the beginning and end portions with all the nice character moments as the crew is together...what ruined it for me was the middle section with Kirk and McCoy in prison. I don't like them being separated from the crew, and I don't think they're given anything interesting to do while they are separated. It's because of the weak middle that I consider this movie inferior to "Star Trek II" and "Star Trek IV" which are much more consistent overall (although "IV" starts a little slow and sputters out a bit towards the end).

My favorite part of the movie is the trial and the prison scenes. I think there is some great material with Kirk and Bones in Rure Penthe. I think TUC is one of the better films in the series Right behind First Contact and TWOK for me. I thought the movie was strong from start to finish and had some great character moments.

 

[Kirby]

I also loved the move when it came out but really don't care for it now. There were so many things that just bother me:
- Crewman Dax with his weird feet - why didn't anyone say something like "hey, that guy can't wear those boots." before they confronted him (I know, it was a comedic moment, but still).
- The Scooby Doo ending with Colonel West.
- The aforementioned books on the bridge.
- The aforementioned phasers in the galley.
- The shakey set piece when Valeris slides down the pole - ever hear of doing another take?
- Why was there a pole in the galley?
- Scotty's line "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her father!"
- The horrible hung over acting by the crew after the dinner.
- Kim Catrall can't act.
- WTF is wrong with Walter Koenig's make up throughout the whole movie.
- Christian Slater - was that necessary?
- UFP President Red Foreman - Not a knock on the movie, but whenever I see it now, I really want to hear him say he's going to put his foot up someone's ass.

There were some good parts too, Christopher Plummer was awesome, the bridge looked great, nice to see Sulu as a Captain, the story concept was good, I liked the Klingon prison camp.

 

[Myasishchev]

I love TUC, but the central conceit of the story, that Starfleet and Klingons hardliners would work together to keep their cold war going, is hard to swallow. I wish they'd just chosen on or the other--Starfleet's side seems there mainly to give Spock something to do.

 

[spaceballone]

I love TUC, but the central conceit of the story, that Starfleet and Klingons hardliners would work together to keep their cold war going, is hard to swallow. I wish they'd just chosen on or the other--Starfleet's side seems there mainly to give Spock something to do.

Why is that hard to swallow? People do fear change, There is alot of hate and bad blood on both sides and it's not hard to imagine that people on both sides who didn't want this peace to happen would go to any length to make sure it didn't happen. There are many real life examples in our own earths history of things like this happening.

 

[Praetor]

I enjoy TUC, and while I can see where many of you are coming from, I disagree that it's a bad movie. The characters' bigotry towards the Klingons is plausible to me, and I think an excellent dramatic twist that these ostensibly highly evolved and open minded people are still subject to the base human(oid) problems.

Like Myasischev says, the only thing that I really had a hard time swallowing was that Starfleet and the Klingons would actually conspire together. I mean, how did that start exactly?

 

[Jolantru]

I love TUC, but the central conceit of the story, that Starfleet and Klingons hardliners would work together to keep their cold war going, is hard to swallow. I wish they'd just chosen on or the other--Starfleet's side seems there mainly to give Spock something to do.

Why is that hard to swallow? People do fear change, There is alot of hate and bad blood on both sides and it's not hard to imagine that people on both sides who didn't want this peace to happen would go to any length to make sure it didn't happen. There are many real life examples in our own earths history of things like this happening.

Because it is completely contradictory in nature. "yeah we hate you guys, and we don't trust you to have a peace agreement, but hey we can agree to conspire together and destroy this peace treaty!"

What would have been a more plausible story would be to have Admiral Cartwright play more of a major role, and have him be the sole villian of the film. Then it would almost be like a plot twist on 24, or something.

I loved the film when I saw it in the theater, but now I realize it was purely based on nostalgia. This is just not a good movie, or a believable story.

There are some good....no great performances (most notably Christopher Plummer), but it's just a piss poor story.

 

[Praetor]

I've always had a suspicion that having the Starfleet officers and Klingons conspire together was meant to be ironic and suggest how irrational they both were - they refused to agree to a treaty, yet were willing to conspire to drive each other to war so each could defeat the other, because each group of extremists was convinced that "of course" they would win.

My problem is more logistic in nature. Who approached who? And how? Surely Donald Cartwright wasn't hanging out with Chang at a bar or anything.

Also, the plot of the game "Klingon Academy" which I admit into my personal canon enhances my appreciation for the film.

 

[spaceballone]

I love TUC, but the central conceit of the story, that Starfleet and Klingons hardliners would work together to keep their cold war going, is hard to swallow. I wish they'd just chosen on or the other--Starfleet's side seems there mainly to give Spock something to do.

Why is that hard to swallow? People do fear change, There is alot of hate and bad blood on both sides and it's not hard to imagine that people on both sides who didn't want this peace to happen would go to any length to make sure it didn't happen. There are many real life examples in our own earths history of things like this happening.

Because it is completely contradictory in nature. "yeah we hate you guys, and we don't trust you to have a peace agreement, but hey we can agree to conspire together and destroy this peace treaty!"

What would have been a more plausible story would be to have Admiral Cartwright play more of a major role, and have him be the sole villian of the film. Then it would almost be like a plot twist on 24, or something.

I loved the film when I saw it in the theater, but now I realize it was purely based on nostalgia. This is just not a good movie, or a believable story.

There are some good....no great performances (most notably Christopher Plummer), but it's just a piss poor story.

Pay attention to history! I understand if you don't like the film but to say it is not plausible that these races would conspire together ignores centuries of world history. I could fill up several pages with real cases of similar things that HAVE happened. It's not implausible because it Has happened in history many times. This is not my opinion, it is a fact.

In the movie this peace treaty would have had a major effect on the Romulans Federation and Klingons. There were powerful people of each race who had big reasons why they did not want this to happen and would have done anything to prevent it.

 

[GalaxyX]

I've always had a suspicion that having the Starfleet officers and Klingons conspire together was meant to be ironic and suggest how irrational they both were - they refused to agree to a treaty, yet were willing to conspire to drive each other to war so each could defeat the other, because each group of extremists was convinced that "of course" they would win.

I loved how deliciously ironic that was.

Personally I loved the movie. It's my favorite TOS movie. I can see how it would bother the canonistas that couldn't accept that Kirk and company had a little bit of bigot in them, but come on, the Klingons have spent decades in a sort of cold war with the Federation, and THEY are the ones who kept poking and poking, hoping to incite the Federation to war.

I don't find it surprising that most humans and even some vulcans were sick and tired of their shit.

 

[Broccoli]

Overall, I like the film, but it is riddled with plot holes and a shaky structure.

It was stupid that the some Feds and Klingons would work together so they can still be enemies. That MAKES NO SENSE. Also, why was the Romulan ambassador involved?

I think it would have been neat (and cleared up a lot) if it turned out the Romulan ambassador was the one pulling the strings and neither the Feds nor the Klingons knew of each other in the conspiracy.

There also seemed to be some needless character assassination. Uhura, for example, needing the translation books so we can have a comic interlude. The prejudice stuff didn't bother me. I could see it happening, honestly.

I think ST6 had a good story and decent execution, but it dropped the ball in so many other ways. Still, it was a good tale for TOS to go out on.

Pay attention to history! I understand if you don't like the film but to say it is not plausible that these races would conspire together ignores centuries of world history. I could fill up several pages with real cases of similar things that HAVE happened. It's not implausible because it Has happened in history many times. This is not my opinion, it is a fact.

My memory of all things historical is a little fuzzy. Can you cite an example?