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"Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" or "Star Trek: Generations"?

Which is better?

  • Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

    Votes: 41 51.9%
  • Star Trek: Generations

    Votes: 38 48.1%

  • Total voters
    79
But, that's not what Kirk says. He tells McCoy the purpose of his pain and unwillingness to just give it up. It's not just Sybok he's resisting.
I guess my point is that Kirk refuses not because he's "Superman Kirk and Shatner has an ego" but because it's true to character. Kirk sees McCoy and Spock go through the "give me your pain" scheme, and simply decides he wants nothing to do with it. He wants to stay in his own reality. It's fairly consistent with his character, always rejecting the idea of paradise or taking the easy path. Heck, even in GEN he brushes off the highly addictive properties of the Nexus when he realizes it's just another con of sorts.

I think Kirk's dialogue in that moment is spot-on...one of the defining moments for the character.
 
I guess my point is that Kirk refuses not because he's "Superman Kirk and Shatner has an ego" but because it's true to character. Kirk sees McCoy and Spock go through the "give me your pain" scheme, and simply decides he wants nothing to do with it. He wants to stay in his own reality. It's fairly consistent with his character, always rejecting the idea of paradise or taking the easy path. Heck, even in GEN he brushes off the highly addictive properties of the Nexus when he realizes it's just another con of sorts.

I think Kirk's dialogue in that moment is spot-on...one of the defining moments for the character.
But by having McCoy and Spock and almost everyone else take the cheap and easy way out that Sybok offers and get suckered into joining Sybok's army of Shiny Happy People while Kirk alone stands up to Sybok and says, "Thanks, but no thanks," (and then snaps Spock and McCoy out of it) is exceptionalism.

It's like if they'd all gone to Jim Jones's commune and some people drank the Kool-Aid willingly while Spock and McCoy said, "We know this Kool-Aid is a trick because we're smart people, and we're going to drink it anyway even though there's no reason why we should," only to suffer the same fate as everyone else, while Kirk alone said, "Nah, I'm fine without any Kool-Aid."

The movie makes Kirk look good at the expense of making almost everyone else look bad by comparison.
 
I hope this is appropriate because I did not want to start a whole thread on this topic:

When Picard meets Kirk in the nexus, in Kirks time when is this suppose to take place? Between Star Trek V-VI?
 
I hope this is appropriate because I did not want to start a whole thread on this topic:

When Picard meets Kirk in the nexus, in Kirks time when is this suppose to take place? Between Star Trek V-VI?
You're asking about when Kirk's nexus fantasy is supposed to be set, at least when Picard first finds him? That would be between TMP and TWOK per Memory Alpha. 2282.
 
I think these movies and reactions to them particularly make the point that no, actually most movies don't get reappraised even decades later, if they generate pretty strong reactions there generally tends to be continuing same reactions to the same disliked elements, maybe one or two always-less-noticed/reacted to elements (some say for funny Data, Sybok) gets some people arguing it's not that bad, it's kind of interesting, but the main elements tend to get same reactions no, really not good idea and/or execution.
 
Another great scene in V that I'd forgotten about is some neat espionage worthy of TOS: When the big three are in the observation lounge (aka "mini ten forward"), they bring up the emergency communications system. The Klingons intercept the transmission and Vixis impersonates Starfleet Command. Usually in TOS, albeit a rarity as far as plot tropes goes, it's Kirk or Spock who dresses up as the other side, but in TFF it's the other way around and done quite nicely.
 
The Enterprise saucer crash is definitely one of the highlights of the film and one of the last great examples of amazing motion control miniature work in Trek before the switch to all CGI. However, I still think destroying the D was a bad decision overall.

It looked great and I'd swear the during-crash sequence had more scenes of the saucer in the stratosphere that got removed for the home video releases, but the shattering glass - dramatic as it was - also made no sense (transparent aluminum thanks to the clown comedy act of TVH, which did more to harm the franchise than TFF had but I digress.) The reuse of 'Yesterday's Enterprise" for script content and direction (which was great) was also impossible to not notice. But with all the scripts being worked on for season 7, DS9, this film, etc, it's easier to see why.

Using the "D" design as the "E" would have been cool, though the need to build a new design with new interior sets made sense. The "E" is a melding of the "A" and "D" and exemplifies a lot in terms of nice curves let down by the lack of "Why is this bit here?" as the aft of the "E" has what looks like a shuttle bay door but isn't. Cargo bay for where they can't beam stuff in, perhaps? And apparently longer, thinner nacelles fix the warp 5 conundrum. Sure does look great on screen, regardless.

The cinematography in TFF is gorgeous. For all the grief Shatner gets, I think he was far and away a better film director than Nimoy. He shot TFF like a movie. TSFS and TVH feel too much like TV episodes to me in the way they are shot. Even the supporting cast members, never known to have an abundance of nice things to say about Shatner, have commented on what a good director he was.

Nimoy was solid, but Shatner definitely used the camera aperture and aspect ratio to better effect.

Ironically, TFF feels like a "60s episode on the big screen but without the florid 60s colors".

Seconded, re: the cast complimenting his direction.

The budget changes, schedule issues, lack of f/x team as they were busy on the biggest films of the year all cobbled this story as much as the demand for more TVH-style humor, except "fish out of water" just did not work when they're all back in their habitat again. The 78 decks whatever, in the opposite order, is one of the cringiest examples. Shatner's direction in this scene is not merely shrewdly done with fast angle changes to up the suspense and situation, it's fantastic. It's the misplaced attempt at comedy (script level) with the deck numbering count is what lets it down. And other scenes in the film really sell suspense and the necessary emotions quite well.

Honestly, the need for the comedy, which feels unnatural way too often, did far more to this film. A film that is exploring metaphysical concepts as well as another brilliant idea of "if the big three empires came together to build something, what might happen as a result?" - except that idea also got lost along the way. The movie is almost trying to do too much and all the elements are diluted as a result.


You know, this is an interesting point. I think most people would say that the TNG cast is made up of better actors than the TOS cast overall. Yet, I agree with your assessment. The TOS cast had a special magic on the big screen that just worked. For as legendary as the TNG cast became on TV, and in spite of the fact that they are all good friends in real life, they just didn't translate as well to the big screen. Not bad, just lacking the magic that the TOS cast had.

The movie scripts are the thing; TOS was always more action-oriented while having a flair of brainy stuff (as a result of "The Cage" being rejected.) This translates to the big screen far better. The TNG movies didn't need to do a loose string-along arc the way 1982-1991 had with the Klingons as many movie series with sequels didn't and didn't need to do that. But the translating of the TNG style from small to big definitely lost a few ingredients, and making Picard a big action figure with catchphrases definitely did not help.
 
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