Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS*****

[Christopher]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Babaganoosh said:
And as nasty as it was for Kruge to order David's death (actually I think it was Saavik who he was going to kill - David jumped in and was killed in her place), I gotta go back to one thing...at least it was quick. The guard stabbed David once and it was all over. It's not "okay" in that sense, but I still don't look at that as being torture. An execution, yes. Torture, no.

Oh, like that makes it all better...

News flash: Kruge was the bad guy. Klingons are not universally noble. They were originally conceived as ruthless, venal brutes who had no morals of any kind. Heck, the very first Klingon episode established them as using a "mind-sifter" or "mind-ripper" device that usually left its subjects severely brain-damaged -- there's no way that isn't torture.

TNG tried to sanitize the Klingons with this "honor" thing, but frankly that was kind of apologist, because they were still a bunch of warmongering thugs, and as we saw over the years, a lot of them just used the word "honor" as protective camouflage for all sorts of barbarism and brutality. Sure, there are a few relatively noble Klingons, like Worf and Martok (and I mean noble in the sense of genuinely honorable and decent, as opposed to born into upper-class families, which is usually just the opposite). But they've tended to be in the minority.

So I'm sure there are plenty of Klingons in the main Trek universe who'd have no problem with torture -- because they're individuals and don't all act the same -- and thus there's no reason to doubt there would be Klingons in a parallel timeline who would have no problem with torture.

I mean, hell, ten years ago, people would've thought it was grossly out of character to show Americans torturing people. Now, it's practically become our national sport! If our own administration and military can sink that low, how can you think it's impossible that Klingons are capable of the same?

 

[Rosalind]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Let's keep politics out of this thread please.

Thank you.

 

[JD]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

One other thing I'm wondering is, have we ever actually seen before how exactly Klingons treat crews of captured ship in our universe?

 

[David cgc]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Babaganoosh said:
And as nasty as it was for Kruge to order David's death (actually I think it was Saavik who he was going to kill - David jumped in and was killed in her place), I gotta go back to one thing...at least it was quick. The guard stabbed David once and it was all over. It's not "okay" in that sense, but I still don't look at that as being torture. An execution, yes. Torture, no. Torture would have been if the guard had individually ripped off David's arms or broken every bone in his body or something slow and agonizing like that.

The things that the Klingons on the Qu' did to the ship's original crew (particularly Beverly and Deanna), though...that's torture. Most of the Klingons we know, would never do that.

We only know a very few Klingons, and by definition, they're ones that get along well with Federation-types, and our touchy-feely bleeding-heart sympathies. Remember that episode of DS9 where a Klingons was bragging about how he butchered a Starfleet crew during their brief war?

"I was the first to board their starship. With one blow from my Bat'leth, I beheaded their helmsman. A Tellarite. The pig didn't even have time to raise his weapon. Then I turned my attention to the Captain. A Benzenite named Laporin. He put up a valiant struggle. But in the end, I ripped the breathing tubes from his head and—"

At which point Sisko politely explained his thoughts on Klingon boarding procedures.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

yeah, he punched the shekker.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

David cgc said:Remember that episode of DS9 where a Klingons was bragging about how he butchered a Starfleet crew during their brief war?

"I was the first to board their starship. With one blow from my Bat'leth, I beheaded their helmsman. A Tellarite. The pig didn't even have time to raise his weapon. "

Again, that was a (relatively) swift kill.

Then I turned my attention to the Captain. A Benzenite named Laporin. He put up a valiant struggle. But in the end, I ripped the breathing tubes from his head and—"

There it is: a valiant struggle. They fought hand to hand, in honorable combat. There's no indication that the Klingon boarding party actively tortured that ship's crew. They came aboard, they killed, end of story.

Look, I'm not saying all Klingons are nicey-nice. But most of the time they are not mindless barbarians. I don't care if they were originally conceived that way. They weren't *played* that way. Even in "Errand of Mercy".

 

[Christopher]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

^^And what does being "mindless barbarians" have to do with being willing to torture? Torture is not the act of a mindless savage. It's the act of a calculating mind seeking to gain a psychological advantage over another being.

You also keep forgetting that this is an alternate timeline. Why is it so impossible for you to believe that the Klingons in that alternate history have gone down a darker path than the Klingons you believe to exist in the main history?

 

[trampledamage]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Christopher said:
You also keep forgetting that this is an alternate timeline. Why is it so impossible for you to believe that the Klingons in that alternate history have gone down a darker path than the Klingons you believe to exist in the main history?

He's not forgetting. The problem is that back on page 14 of this discussion KRAD said that these Klingons weren't intentionally more brutal than the ones we're used to.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

I'm juggling reading this, Sword of Damocles, Huckleberry Finn, and a book on Condoleezza Rice. Needless to say, I'm not advancing very far in any of them.

However, what I've read so far from Q&A is very good. I don't like Leybenzon, but it's a minor thing. The way that the story weaves in and out of the various Q appearances is great. (I have to admit, that every time I see "One day left until the end of the universe", for some reason the Law and Order *dun dun* sound is heard in my head. It makes reading this book all the more intriguing)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Vixen said:I have to admit, that every time I see "One day left until the end of the universe", for some reason the Law and Order *dun dun* sound is heard in my head.

Do you get that when you watch that TNG ep with Paul Sorvino?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Babaganoosh said:

Vixen said:I have to admit, that every time I see "One day left until the end of the universe", for some reason the Law and Order *dun dun* sound is heard in my head.

Do you get that when you watch that TNG ep with Paul Sorvino?

:thumbsup:

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Ironically, when that episode was shown, I had never seen L&O before. Now I can't look at it without seeing Phil Cerreta.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Babaganoosh said:
Ironically, when that episode was shown, I had never seen L&O before. Now I can't look at it without seeing Phil Cerreta.

Same here. I've been going back and watch a lot of Law & Order reruns on TNT, so I'm getting to know him better.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Well, KRAD...I don't know what to say.

Except thanks once again for a great Trek Lit entry, that is. So far, my reading this month has been, for the most part, positive, what with The Sky's The Limit, A Time to Heal, and now Q&A. (I'll not mention Resistance, which held so much promise...)

Overall, Q&A is a terrific romp through Q appearances. At times, it almost seemed like a Douglas Adams novel, and I meant that in a good way. I was skeptical at first about Q&A, especially so soon after being burned by the Book Which I Shall Not Name Again. And yet, it came through. I was shocked as all hell when it was revealed that Q's actions actually had a purpose!!! TEH ZOMFG!!! It was great, the way you had all these different events taking place in various locations in the Milky Way Galaxy, and tied them all together. And the way you had Gorsach IX (which, I have to agree with Q, is an ugly name) as the instigator of the end of the universe was intriguing. The Parallels replay was excellently done, with the multitude of possibilities.

I usually don't list Q among my favorite characters (in no particular order: Beverly Crusher, Deanna Troi, Kira Nerys, B'Elanna Torres, Christine Chapel, Jean-Luc Picard, Geordi La Forge, Data, McCoy, Spock, Sisko, Worf, and Bashir) yet in this case I think he deserves to be in the Vixen Pantheon. His appearances in here were all neatly tied together in a coherent, interesting way.

I'll have to reiterate that I don't like Leybenzon. It's just one of those things that I have an instinctual dislike to: Tomatoes, sea life with multiple legs, that annoying Aenar guy in The Good That Men Do. My dislike of him was not enough to ruin the story, and, in a perverse way that I'm definitely blaming you for, made me enjoy the reading even more.

(BTW, will we see a return of 'Them'?)

Kudos (or Kodos, whichever you may prefer) to you, KRAD. You've made these past few days (which have been considerably bleak) a whole lot brighter. :thumbsup:

 

[Elemental]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Vixen said:
(BTW, will we see a return of 'Them'?)

My guess would be no, just going by the nature of their involvement in the story. Feels to me they'd be best left as a one-time encounter. Of course nothing is preventing them from showing up again either.

 

[KRAD]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Thanks so much, Vixen! Glad you enjoyed it!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

It was an uplifting book. I've been experiencing a case of depression recently (long-term funk, if you will) and this, along with the other Trek books, have managed to get me out of it.

In fact, I've been inspired to go back and reread Federation again.

 

[KRAD]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

I'm glad to have been of some help. I'm quite familiar with the agonies of clinical depression, and I'm honored that I was in some small way helpful to you in dealing with it.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

All of the Trek books have made getting through the days easier. Which is why I was so ebullient about The Sky's The Limit, and now Q&A

 

[KRAD]

Re: Star Trek Q&A -- Appreciation Thread ****SPOILERS***

Ebullient is good. We like ebullient.



(Leaving aside any other considerations, it's a fun word to say. "Ebullient! Ebullient! Ebullient!")