Guys, political discussions belong in The Neutral Zone. Maybe you can take it there. Please.
Star Trek Publicity Myths
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
- Start date
Christopher is not an outrageous or flakey person, and I don't need to fight with him. I'm willing to let it drop with the assumed understanding that he does not endorse my position.
Thank you, Zap.
Yes, thank you Harvey!
I still say, in my opinion, that while the order was immediate execution, that most of the security people wouldn't have carried it out, but we are arguing something that can never be resolved. It wasn't a great episode and there's lots to debate in what would have happened.
My biggest complaint is why did Dr. McCoy's test show the same results as from the previous years? That's just crazy.
I still say, in my opinion, that while the order was immediate execution, that most of the security people wouldn't have carried it out, but we are arguing something that can never be resolved. It wasn't a great episode and there's lots to debate in what would have happened.
My biggest complaint is why did Dr. McCoy's test show the same results as from the previous years? That's just crazy.
Yes, that is a HUGE inconsistency that makes no sense whatsoever. McCoy was ready to relieve Matt Decker on the spot and yet Lester/Kirk passes with flying colours?
No fucking way.
Part of me has always wondered whether "Turnabout Intruder" was simply just a big FU by Roddenberry to—I don't know—whomever, the world at large, everybody. It's just a betrayal of so much that came before in TOS and on many levels. 
I don't think it was a big FU. I think it was Roddenberry doing what he always does. Grabbing for every last dollar he can get his hands on. He was probably aware that his name wasn't the best in the business and his chances of getting another series on the air were slim. So he grabbed for whatever quick bucks he could get.
Makes sense. The shoddiness of the story then, that was just because the show was wrapping and quality wasn't really an issue anymore, e.g. for the purposes of maintaining viewer interest?
I think "shoddy" is a little strong, by television standards of the period. For instance, I've read that a lot of Mission: Impossible plots were deliberately convoluted to disguise the fact that they made no sense. Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Lost in Space both had some plots that make "The Turnabout Intruder" seem airtight by comparison.
And "The Mark of Gideon" had a pretty bad plot hole in the supposed need for, and implausible exactness of, the Enterprise replica.
"Turnabout" just had some relatively minor issues:
- The medical test showing no emotional changes from the prior year.
- Starfleet Security guards supposedly willing to execute anybody. I agree with Timo: they were stalling, and didn't want to lay their careers on the line until the moment of truth.
- Spock unable to think up simple questions that Janice Lester could never answer. Same problem in "Whom Gods Destroy." He could ask Kirk to recall recent, unlogged little events aboard ship, and real Kirk would trounce fake Kirk.
But overall, the episode is pretty good on motivations and story logic.
I really don't think so.
You left out the hideous misogyny.
This goes back to Star Trek's orginal sin: GR lying to Majel that NBC refused to have a woman near the top, and then having to uphold that baloney throughout the series.
If the big three had been Kirk, Spock, and a senior woman heroine (whether ship's doctor or not), then having a bad woman like Janice Lester would not be a problem. She'd be balanced off. Still a clunker of a character, but not "misogyny."
A similar thing happened in TNG "The Drumhead." They had this terrible woman admiral, and the regular women hadn't been put in such strong roles, so again it seemed pretty bad.
Have you ever read Gene Roddenberry's original story outline? Not only is it dripping with misogyny (he takes care to note that Janice goes "female-hysterical"), but it's also incredibly self-congratulatory. Roddenberry actually calls out in the text what a great story idea it is.
^Yep, I'm familiar with it. What we ended up with isn't quite as bad as what's in the outline and script.
Which is partly contradicted by McCoy in "Metamorphosis": "Maybe you're a soldier so often that you forget you're also trained to be a diplomat. Why not try a carrot instead of a stick?"
^Not really a contradiction, since that line of Kirk's in "Errand" could've been one of those cases where he forgot. 
Yes, it would have been clumsy--probably coming off like parodies of the bad FX in Ed Wood movies.
You are not kidding. sometimes, a LiS plot was nothing more than Smith screaming like a child, and Don yelling, "Smith!"
Yeah, that was a cheap plot contrivance that made no sense at all. It;s not as though the author was unaware of previous episodes to refer to.
Heck, Sulu and Chekov made their own nod to series continuity:
Lee Meriwether was a solid actress; she would have been an interesting addition to TOS.
But they agree about the part that's important to this discussion...that Kirk was seen as a soldier, vs. the "Starfleet is not a military organization" conceit of the TNG era.
Chekov got the Order number wrong, which was probably straight up "last show of the series, nobody gives a crap" writing.
And I don't envision Spock harkening back to prior episodes for something the audience knows about. I would have him say, "We discussed a minor problem at our working breakfast on Tuesday."
Real Kirk would then say, "Yes, Crewman So-and-So had a personality conflict on the Impulse Deck." Garth of Izar and Janice Lester weren't there, don't know.
There's no contradiction whatsoever between "Metamorphosis" and "Errand of Mercy."
On Organia, Kirk thought he was speaking to primitives. He probably thought it was easier to be more straightforward and to speak in simple terms. Kirk is a member of Starfleet and not a diplomat like Ambassador Fox, so in broad strokes he was being truthful.
McCoy is just being Kirk's doctor by reminding Kirk that because of all his primary duties he forgets about his training as a diplomat, perhaps because he seldom gets to exercise it.
On Organia, Kirk thought he was speaking to primitives. He probably thought it was easier to be more straightforward and to speak in simple terms. Kirk is a member of Starfleet and not a diplomat like Ambassador Fox, so in broad strokes he was being truthful.
McCoy is just being Kirk's doctor by reminding Kirk that because of all his primary duties he forgets about his training as a diplomat, perhaps because he seldom gets to exercise it.
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