Question: What is "real" Star Trek? Because if gore disqualifies it then I can (finally!) toss out TWOK as "real" Star Trek!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy General Discussion Thread
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If I like it it's Real Star Trek. If I don't it's Abrams Filth.
0KAY
Isn't that basically what the Marvel Cinematic Universe has done with Loki? In The Avengers, Kenneth Tigar compared him to Hitler ("There are always men like you,") but then later movies and the TV series redeemed two different versions of him and turned him into a lovable antihero both times. For that matter, DS9 was heading down that same route with Gul Dukat until they caught themselves, although they overcorrected and made him too cartoonishly evil to compensate. Oh, yes, and then there's Spike on Buffy. And probably a fair number of other characters.
That's the risk of casting someone charismatic to play an irredeemable villain and then finding out that audiences love them. Movies and shows want to cater to that popularity, so they make the villain redeemable after all and gloss over their past evils.
Anyway, I don't really blame the current Discovery producers for trying to redeem Emperor Georgiou. They're basically just trying to make the best of the bad decisions the season 1 showrunners made -- first killing off Michelle Yeoh's character in the first place, then bringing her back as the Emperor. Naturally if you have the chance to keep Michelle Yeoh around on your show, then you do that, but in this case they were dealt a bad hand and had to do what they could with it.
For what they were dealt they did well enough.
The better choice would have been not to bring back Georgiou at all and do something else with Yeoh but apparently that's just crazy talk or something. Yeoh is valuable or something like that.
Also, Star Trek has done this before with Dukat and Kor. Neither of those characters should be considered admirable yet audiences really glommed on to them, and Kor was brought back as a foil for Worf and with Jadzia. There is a fascination with these darker characters and getting past that is not going to happen, and Star Trek has not tried.
Also, Loki is a great example of this unfortunate effect. I loath that, especially with that line in the first Avengers film. It was so good and then Loki gets treated as the loveable scamp who's up to mischief again *cue laugh track as credits roll*
The better choice would have been not to bring back Georgiou at all and do something else with Yeoh but apparently that's just crazy talk or something. Yeoh is valuable or something like that.
Also, Star Trek has done this before with Dukat and Kor. Neither of those characters should be considered admirable yet audiences really glommed on to them, and Kor was brought back as a foil for Worf and with Jadzia. There is a fascination with these darker characters and getting past that is not going to happen, and Star Trek has not tried.
Also, Loki is a great example of this unfortunate effect. I loath that, especially with that line in the first Avengers film. It was so good and then Loki gets treated as the loveable scamp who's up to mischief again *cue laugh track as credits roll*
In Loki's defense, it's Marvel's official position that the Mind Stone was influencing him to be more evil that he otherwise would be. It's a very elegant ret-con.
In Loki's defense it still is ridiculous. "Oh, you were being amplified evil. Totally fine. And when you summoned Ice Giants to take over Asgard? Also totally fine."
Sorry, it's a retcon that lands about as well as Mjolnir.
^^^
And there you have a CLEAR example of intolerance and hypocrisy when the Federation/Picard states it doesn't judge or interfere with other cultures. As you said, what Worf did was 100% respected and allowed within Klingon culture. yes, Worf is also a member of Starfleet; but if part of said 'membership' is that he has to DISREGARD certain aspects of his own culture, or face consequences (such as a reprimand, or one of the many dressing downs he received from Picard) - the Federation and Starfleet IS being intolerant of and judging his culture. IF Worf did something similar against a Human citizen of the Federation, (and I state that because there are supposedly numerous alien cultures within the Federation, and who knows what their 'norms' of behavior are?) yes, THEN he should be subject to Human Federation laws and customs; but when acting against other Klingons, as long as he stays within the 'norms' of Klingon culture, Picard (and the Federation) should shut the hell up, OR admit that they routinely pass judgement and are intolerant of alien cultures when said culture's 'norms' of behavior differ from those of humanity.
If you watch TOS - Kirk comments on how he's visited many Federation worlds where there are forms of entertainment that make Roman Gladiatorial combat look like a folk dance. In the 23rd century, the Federation let their member world run their affairs and culture as they saw fit, with no judgement or interference, AS LONG AS what the world did, DIDN'T INTERFEDRE with its obligations to the Federation in general, or other member worlds.
^^^
Seems that level of freedom and tolerance isn't a part of the 24th century Federation, OR it's supposed 'best example' Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
But that wasn't his real plan, he was summoning them into a trap.
Oh yeah, production-wise I think they're fine. And the high-level of production is what gets me in the door.
Once I'm inside and look around... that's when it begins. That's when it becomes, "Yeah, this is just not my thing."
Also, yes, if by "Space Hitler" you mean Mirror Universe Philippa, then yeah, I didn't really care for her either. But I don't really care for the Mirror Universe concept at all anyway. I liked her formal title: Her Most Imperial Majesty, Mother of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Qo'noS, Regina Andor, Philippa Georgiou Augustus Iaponius Centarius. That I thought was fun, but Mirror Universe on the whole... nah.
Once they brought her back over though, I liked her. I like how she plays off of Michael, I think they're great together. I liked Michael and Captain Georgiou better, but that ended after two episodes, so yeah.
On the "real" Star Trek thing... all of it is of course real Star Trek. It's just different ways of doing Star Trek. 60s style, 90s style, 2020s style (or 2009 or 2017 and up style or whatever). But I know what you're talking about.
I haven't done one of these, but...
My opinions:
Quality, complete series:
∃!: TOS
Quality: incomplete series:
∃!: DIS
Most liked (so far):
DIS>TOS
(And in math, "∃!" means there exists exactly one. Like V'Latak from Discovery season one, I'm a logic extremist. And I'm not getting graded on this, so I can use that symbol however I want.)
The internet is fun.
Not at all, because he wasn't in his culture at that time. He was acting as an officer of the Federation Starfleet and had taken an oath to obey its regulations as long as he wore the uniform. When you join an organization, you agree to abide by its rules while you're acting on its behalf. That's not hypocrisy, it's just that different institutions have different rules. For instance, someone might be a nudist in their personal life, and that's perfectly fine, but if they get a job teaching elementary school, then they don't practice their nudism while they're on the job. There is a difference between personal choices and professional obligations. That is not intolerance, it's responsibility.
I don't think the DS9 team had to catch themselves. Because Dukat was well written and charismatically performed by Marc Alaimo, fans glommed onto him and a subset of fans felt that in some ways he was right or heroic, etc. I don't think you can put that on the show creators. They specifically wrote "Waltz" to call out the ridiculousness of that support. And I agree, they went to far with the episode "Covenant" but I didn't totally dislike his ending (it just wasn't as good as it could have been).
For what they were dealt they did well enough.
The better choice would have been not to bring back Georgiou at all and do something else with Yeoh but apparently that's just crazy talk or something. Yeoh is valuable or something like that.
Also, Star Trek has done this before with Dukat and Kor. Neither of those characters should be considered admirable yet audiences really glommed on to them, and Kor was brought back as a foil for Worf and with Jadzia. There is a fascination with these darker characters and getting past that is not going to happen, and Star Trek has not tried.
Also, Loki is a great example of this unfortunate effect. I loath that, especially with that line in the first Avengers film. It was so good and then Loki gets treated as the loveable scamp who's up to mischief again *cue laugh track as credits roll*
I agree. They should have skipped using Mirror Georgiou and just used Prime Georgiou, or moved on to someone else. Mirror Georgiou is a disaster zone.
I don't see Kor being of the same level. He appeared in, what, two episodes prior to his "revamping" in DS9 (one being a TAS episode)? He just played a foil to our heros in the military governor of Organia, and while his reign might be harsh by Federation standards, he simply doesn't equate to a genocidal-level character.
So, Picard should be accepting that an officer of his, who is a citizen of the Federation and sworn to whatever oath Starfleet officers are beholden to, can just up and leave their post, beam over to an alien ship and kill someone? Did Worf ask for leave? Did he take (another) vacation? Did he even clock out? Nope, just left and killed a dude.
Also, I guess that the Federation/Starfleet/Picard was so inflexible/intolerant of this alien culture that they put him in the stockade, or maybe just kicked him out of Starfleet, or even gave him a demotion? No, he just got a reprimand? So, Picard gave him a talking to saying he can honor his culture, but must also do his duty to the Federation. That is not what I would call hypocritical. If Worf was a civilian, even the partner of an officer, I don't see Picard caring one bit. But Worf dropped his duties, didn't even tell anyone involved in K'Ehleyr's murder investigation what he was doing, and killed one of the two most politically powerful people in a neighboring, allied nation. I think Picard should have something to say about that. Come to think of it, it is a lot like when Worf ignored his duty in "Change of Heart". But there at least, the reprimand was likely to prevent Worf from getting his own command.
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About "yeah, this is not my thing": i can understand that, though it doesn't happen for me because Trek is my favorite entertainment property of all time and so I consider it all of one bag (minus the Kelvin Timeline, which is fun, but doesn't really count).
And as for the Mirror Universe, I like about 3 episodes of it: "Mirror, Mirror", "Crossover", and "Despite Yourself". All three of those felt new and interesting and like they had something to say about it all. All the rest feel to me like over the top, campy, just mean/evil for meanness/evil sake, or just plain bad. I get that the productions and casts may have had fun with the cosplay and playing different/evil characters, but to me all the later episodes (including "in a mirror darkly") didn't have much new to say about it and didn't use it as a mirror for our heroes or the prime universe, they just used it as a fun diversion (which is not too bad, just quickly got boring).
For me, what is "real Trek" just has to be 1) optimistic about humanity's future, 2) show us trying to be better, and 3) try to say or explore something interesting about existence. We don't always have to succeed at these, but we have to try. It also helps if there is some kind of coherent plan for the show's direction, which parts of Voyager, ENT, DIS, and PIC all seem (to me) to screw up at one point or another.
That's literally what he was willing to do with the Organians, as well as torture and break Spock's mind. He is the exact same level as Georgiou.
It's also an action/adventure platform to tell a variety of stories in. And Georgiou is prime example of becoming better. I think current Trek does well, even though it can be dark, it never loses sight that humans can become better.
That doesn't make it any better or him less evil. He's a terrible character and unenjoyable as a protagonist in his own show.
No - he wasn't acting a a Starfleet officer while on a Klingon ship. he came on board, confronted Duras NOT as a Starfleet officer (I didn't see or hear any dialogue where Worf was attempting to arrest Duras on behalf of Starfleet or the Federation; or acting on behalf of the Federation. Worf also DIDN'T confront Duras on the Enterprise), but a mate of a person Duras killed. In fact once he stated such, the Klingons blocking him got out of his way, and even Duras ACKNOLWLEGDED and accepted the challenge and the entered into legal Klingon combat and he won, and was allowed to return to the 1701-D. Also, since we don't know Worf's duty schedule, you're supposing he derelicted his duty. For all we know, he was off duty when he went to Duras' ship to challenge him. Worf was fully in a Klingon setting for all the actions taken against Duras.
Picard was (and in his new series still is) a hypocrite and intolerant of other alien cultures who don't conform to human cultural norms. He displayed these traits often during TNGs run.
Maybe I need to go back and watch "Errand of Mercy" again, but a Klingon officer occupying a planet, responsible for ordering (but presumably not achieving) the deaths of a couple hundred civilians is a bad guy, but not on the order of an empress who wipes out entire races and tortures hundreds of people continuously for more than a year. You just cannot equate the two.
I like that they did try to get Georgiou to be better. But they just didn't spend enough time/effort on it; to me it just feels like they are paying lip service to the idea: "thus, she is redeemed" as opposed to earning it (like how Damar turns in DS9 - he changes, slowly, and isn't suddenly treated like a good guy by our heroes, but does work back to the "good" side by the end). Again, maybe I should go back and rewatch the goodbye scene in Terra Firma p2, but I have it in my mind that they were lauding her a pretty good person/friend as opposed to simply saying goodbye to a bad person they happened to spend a few months stranded with.
I find the two perfectly equitable. One simply did not go as far but was willing to do so. Same with Dukat who was an ally of the heroes for a time.
Mileage will vary. One thing I have learned with working with different groups of people is if even if a person is considered a bastard by all rights there is still a measure of "but they are our bastard." It's not as a friendship but a comrade in arms who have a shared pain, rather than a friend. Again, its a distinction that is important in the emotion. I don't think Georgiou was blessed with redemption so much as it demonstrated that she was on the right path. She was evolving and becoming better, which is something I think is a powerful message that Star Trek often championed. The idea that humanity can improved and it isn't just for future people who will eventually learn, but even people who are terrible.
Otherwise, the prospect of an evolving humanity is worthless to current humanity.
In my opinion.
Worf, the head of security for the Enterprise, finds his dying girlfriend/Federation envoy who names her killer. He leaves the crime scene, doesn't tell his commander (Riker) or Captain where he is going or what he is doing, takes off his sash and combadge, beams over to another ship, and kills the man responsible. So, his duty shift happened to just end somewhere around the time K'Ehleyr dies and it is totally fine for him, the head of security, to just leave the crime scene with no notice given to anyone and just, what, go on a 10-minute vacation to stab some dude? Seems on the up and up. Picard probably is the type of guy to expect his helmsman to just continue to pilot the ship until his relief showed up and not crash into the nearest star? I mean that guy had a time reserved on the holodeck and everything.
Hmm, I will rewatch "Errand", but I just cannot equate Mirror Georgiou and Kor.
And, I agree about the "our bastard" - that is why we sometimes can (but probably shouldn't) work with bad guys (both in Trek and real life).
As for working with Dukat as an ally - I think the only time we did that was when the Klingons had "illegally" invaded Cardassia playing right into the Dominion's plans. And even then, nobody welcomed Dukat as anything more than a representative of an attacked nation - unless I am forgetting something.
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