Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x08 - "Mercy"

[fireproof78]

They showed traditional lead -acid batteries. It is kind of insulting actually because a lot of Trek fans actually understand tech. I mean real tech, not fake Trek tech.

Insulting? Really?

I am sympathetic to many perspectives but being insulted by media is one that I cannot fathom.

 

[jackoverfull]

They showed traditional lead -acid batteries.

You sure about that?
This is a li-ion starter battery, straight out of a google search, it doesn’t really look any different from a lead acid one from the outside.

And no the world would not transition to all Li-Ion starting batteries in 2 years for traditional ICE cars. That would be a waste as we are trying to phase them out entirely and need the Lithium for electric car batteries and all the other battery powered tech.

as I wrote, this is definitely not going to happen by 2024 in the teams world. But manned missions to Jupiter ain’t either.

 

[NCC-73515]

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I have to wonder how extensive the Vulcan presence on Earth actually was. A survey mission or two? Or did they have hidden bases from which to observe humanity? Was there a directive from High Command to prevent other warp species from contaminating Earth?

Hmm...

Also...huge coincidence they were nearby to detect the warp field of the Phoenix...

That's what I mean with flesh it out. Needed or not.

 

[Mr Awe]

I am not calling you out specifically. I did not call anyone out specifically. I stating my observations of the fan response. You took the teen comment very personally which was not the intention.
The lack of comprehension feels two sided at this point.

No, I understand your point of view entirely. I didn't take it personally, but I am calling you out on it. Saying something reminds you of "teenage mood swings" is putting others down regardless of your rationalizations. Capiche?

 

[fireproof78]

No, I understand your point of view entirely. I didn't take it personally, but I am calling you out on it. Saying something reminds you of "teenage mood swings" is putting others down regardless of your rationalizations. Capiche?

Apologies at this point to whomever I may have offended.

The shift from "best ever" to "filler" is odd to me in terms of the intensity of that opinion shift.

 

[Sci]

Everything in 2024 so far took place in the span of two days.

Yes.

During this time Soong got his license revoked, made a donation to NASA to get on the board of the Europa Mission, and now has a private army? And not just any army, all ex SF!

I think it's pretty clear that the Europa mission is being launched by I Can't Believe It's Not SpaceX, not NASA. Also, there is nothing implausible about a rich guy hiring mercenaries.

the only thing that confused me this episode, is that to me, it seems that Juradi/BQ is trying to basically help Soong create the Confederation timeline, that she seems to want to prevent when she shows up in S2 episode 1 The Stargazer. Or i really missed something.

She's not. She's just using the promise of Soong being remembered in glory in the Confederation timeline to manipulate him.

So Emory Erickson wasn't some pioneering inventor but just copied transporter tech from the Vulcans.

More likely he observed Vulcan transporter technology and tried to figure out how to do it himself, without being given access to the tech in order to copy it.

And the Vulcans didn't even intervene when Erickson started experimenting on his own son to "invent" a transporter, even though it was meaningless as again the Vulcans already had the tech.

Yes. That is how the Vulcans operated -- they would refuse to share technology and not interfere if other worlds acted to try to develop that technology themselves.

NX-01's fear of transporters now also seems even more absurd if the Vulcans had been using them safely for centuries.

I don't agree at all. If I were a Human in 2151, I'd be way more afraid of Human transporters than Vulcan transporters.

The problem with that is, the Borg are monsters. Or, at least, as they were originally presented, a force of nature that will kill and assimilate simply because that’s their nature. They’re certainly not misunderstood good guys. They are death, carnage and rape personified. I can’t see how there can ever be peace with the Borg, unless there’s simply an agreement to avoid certain territories because a war would cost them too much are therefore not be in their best interests.

Maybe that was the original intent, but there's a point where you can't sustain that kind of storytelling anymore. In fiction, the degree to which monsters are frightening is correlated to the degree to which we do not understand them. So eventually, either the monsters become fully understood and therefore defeatable -- in which case they are no longer an interesting threat -- or, they have to be revealed as characters, who act on motives, rather than as monsters who are just there to try to kill/convert the protagonists. And once they become characters, there's a point where, again, you can't really sustain repetitions of the same old "evil bad guys do evil bad things" story -- there comes a point where the idea that they can be reasoned with just becomes the only new direction to go in.

The idea that the Borg are an implacable non-person sailed a quarter-century ago with Star Trek: First Contact. The idea of the Federation eventually finding a way to have peace with the Borg IMO became a creative inevitability in 1996.

Russians and Americans weren't allies historically and very much aren't now going by the news. Vulcans and Humans are allies.

I mean, yes, but it's more complicated than that. They were allies, but they weren't equals. Vulcan was the regional hegemon and Earth was its resentful client state. Vulcan wasn't exactly colonizing Earth, but it was definitely interfering in Earth's political affairs to try to keep Humans from expanding to the stars at a rate the Vulcans considered to be "too fast," and part of that was that they were absolutely not sharing advanced tech.

Even if Vulcans don't want to share the tech, they'd stop Erickson from doing needless experiments on his own son I think.

I don't. Remember, the Vulcan government at the time was a hegemonic nationalist power locked in a cold war with Andor and working to keep worlds like Earth and Coridan under their thumbs. They weren't a purely benevolent government.

Other ways of doing this without Soong's help, like transmitting a signal to the Delta quadrant or something.

With what? Except for Tallinn's benefactors' tech, there's no technology on 2024 Earth capable of transmitting a faster-than-light signal other than La Sirena. She'll, what, send a signal to the Delta Quadrant and wait 70,000 years for it to arrive?

No, launching an attack on La Sirena with semi-assimilated mercenaries is rationally her best option.

A geneticist is not the first person you'd turn to for this.

No, but a desperate billionaire whom you can manipulate into acquiring a team of mercenaries on your behalf is.

Interesting that Agnes can shrug off Borg assimilation to stop herself from killing (something many, many others in Trek including Picard were unable to do) while the same Agnes couldn't shrug off a mindmeld to prevent killing Maddox. That must be one very very weak assimilation the Borg Queen did. Except she's back to rampaging a minute later. The strength of the queen's control comes and goes with the plot.

They made it clear that her nanoprobes are severely depleted and she was not capable of producing new ones -- so, yes, they explicitly established that the Queen's ability to assimilate Jurati and subsume Jurati's personality is weaker than normal.

 

[Lord Exor]

The idea that the Borg are an implacable non-person sailed a quarter-century ago with Star Trek: First Contact. The idea of the Federation eventually finding a way to have peace with the Borg IMO became a creative inevitability in 1996.

I don't agree with this premise. If anything, First Contact re-established the Borg as a villainous force after several attempts at humanization near the end of TNG. They transitioned from mere amorality to something malevolent--and delusional--when the Queen and an army of mindless zombies was introduced as the new status quo.

I still don't think the Borg can be changed while this hopelessly belligerent Queen remains in charge, but we'll see how this progresses. If the Borg gain new leadership, there is a possibility that their overtures toward communion and harmony can gain legitimacy, e.g. the Cooperative.

 

[Sci]

I don't agree with this premise. If anything, First Contact re-established the Borg as a villainous force after several attempts at humanization near the end of TNG.

Not really. "I, Borg" was about exploring Hugh's potential to change, but the Borg Collective remained an antagonistic monster. "Descent, Parts I & II" featured rogue former members of the Collective, but not the Collective itself. Those were the only appearances of the Borg after "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" in TNG.

They transitioned from mere amorality to something malevolent--and delusional--when the Queen was introduced.

Sure, but they still transitioned from being monsters -- creatures without personality that exist in the narrative for the sole purpose of threatening the protagonists -- to being characters -- people with personalities who act upon motives. And when you transition from being a monster to being a character, then the possibility of reconciliation becomes a creative inevitability, because you can only repeat stories where the evil bad guy does evil bad things so many times before it ceases being interesting.

I still don't think the Borg can be changed while this Queen remains in charge, but we'll see how this progresses. If the Borg gain new leadership, there is a possibility that their overtures toward communion and harmony can gain legitimacy, e.g. the Cooperative.

I think that's precisely where this is going. The dead Queen's weakened assimilation ability will lead to Jurati's compassion and mercy eventually being incorporated into the Jurati Queen's personality and, therefore, into the new collective consciousness the Jurati Queen builds. We'll see the emergence of a Borg variant that's not so aggressive and with whom the possibility of reconciliation will exist.

 

[Lord Exor]

Not really. "I, Borg" was about exploring Hugh's potential to change, but the Borg Collective remained an antagonistic monster. "Descent, Parts I & II" featured rogue former members of the Collective, but not the Collective itself. Those were the only appearances of the Borg after "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" in TNG.

"Descent, Parts I & II" left the status of the Collective unaddressed, with the implication being that Hugh's interference caused widespread damage. The writers, on their part, left this intentionally vague should they decide to shift gears later. They later did just that when developing First Contact.

Sure, but they still transitioned from being monsters -- creatures without personality that exist in the narrative for the sole purpose of threatening the protagonists -- to being characters -- people with personalities who act upon motives. And when you transition from being a monster to being a character, then the possibility of reconciliation becomes a creative inevitability, because you can only repeat stories where the evil bad guy does evil bad things so many times before it ceases being interesting.

There isn't an inevitability of redemption. You have two paths toward resolution: atonement or destruction. Not everyone has the capacity for positive development or contrition, so the use of force will be the only recourse. Just because you have a personality and motives doesn't mean you're no longer a monster.

I think that's precisely where this is going. The dead Queen's weakened assimilation ability will lead to Jurati's compassion and mercy eventually being incorporated into the Jurati Queen's personality and, therefore, into the new collective consciousness the Jurati Queen builds. We'll see the emergence of a Borg variant that's not so aggressive and with whom the possibility of reconciliation will exist.

I don't think they're going to merge as a singular consciousness at any rate. There's a direct dichotomy between Jurati and the Borg Queen, they merely share a vessel. I do think, however, that Jurati appreciates the ideals the Borg allege to espouse. I suspect she'll remain Borg of her own volition after the hijacking personality is expunged.

The other alternative is that Jurati somehow convinces the Queen she's wrong, but that seems less cathartic/realistic when handling a ruthless, unrepentant despot.

 

[Sci]

Sure, but they still transitioned from being monsters -- creatures without personality that exist in the narrative for the sole purpose of threatening the protagonists -- to being characters -- people with personalities who act upon motives. And when you transition from being a monster to being a character, then the possibility of reconciliation becomes a creative inevitability, because you can only repeat stories where the evil bad guy does evil bad things so many times before it ceases being interesting.

There isn't an inevitability of redemption. You have two paths toward resolution: atonement or destruction. Not everyone has the capacity for positive development or contrition, so the use of force will be the only recourse.

I mean, you're speaking from an in-universe POV. I'm speaking from an out-universe POV. In-universe, sure, reconciliation isn't an inevitability because, yes, the Borg Queen personality is a megalomaniac who would never agree to peace. But from a real-world POV, it became almost inevitable that the writers of Star Trek would eventually find a way to go with the "peace and reconciliation with the Borg" route once they introduced the Queen, because eventually every other variation of stories you can do with the Borg will become repetitive and boring -- and also because that is Star Trek's standard trajectory with its antagonistic alien cultures, since ST is a franchise that fundamentally believes that societies are not inherently evil and can be reconciled with each-other.

Just because you have a personality and motives doesn't mean you're no longer a monster.

I was using the term "monster" as a literary term, to describe an element of fiction that serves as an antagonistic force against the protagonists yet does not have personality or character in their own right. The classic comparison would be, zombies are monsters but Dracula is a character.

I don't think they're going to merge as a singular consciousness at any rate. There's a direct dichotomy between Jurati and the Borg Queen, they merely share a vessel. I do think, however, that Jurati appreciates the ideals the Borg allege to espouse. I suspect she'll remain Borg of her own volition after the hijacking personality is expunged.

I don't know which exact plot device they'll use to get there, but either way I think it's pretty clear that Jurati will be the source of a new variation of Borg who act in a manner that is consensual rather than imperialistic.

 

[eschaton]

One should also keep in mind there was that throwaway scene from the far-future in Season 1 of Lower Decks where we saw a Borg child in a classroom. This indicates that the Federation eventually makes peace with the Borg, if not having the Borg join the Federation outright.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

the only thing that confused me this episode, is that to me, it seems that Juradi/BQ is trying to basically help Soong create the Confederation timeline, that she seems to want to prevent when she shows up in S2 episode 1 The Stargazer. Or i really missed something.

With the Borg Collective in shambles, like it possibly is after Janeway messing it up in "Endgames", restoring the PU to its original state might not be in her best interest

Thinking she might go for a third alterative timeline, where the Borg are on top.

 

[Photoman15]

One of the last scenes will be a recreation of the stage where Picard was to execute the Borg Queen, except it'll pan back and see she is whole and she and Picard are signing a Peace Treaty.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

One of the last scenes will be a recreation of the stage where Picard was to execute the Borg Queen, except it'll pan back and see she is whole and she and Picard are signing a Peace Treaty.

That's what i strongly suspect too.

 

[Tuskin38]

The execution stage was the same stage where Picard gave his speech in episode 1.

 

[Lord Exor]

I mean, you're speaking from an in-universe POV. I'm speaking from an out-universe POV. In-universe, sure, reconciliation isn't an inevitability because, yes, the Borg Queen personality is a megalomaniac who would never agree to peace. But from a real-world POV, it became almost inevitable that the writers of Star Trek would eventually find a way to go with the "peace and reconciliation with the Borg" route once they introduced the Queen, because eventually every other variation of stories you can do with the Borg will become repetitive and boring -- and also because that is Star Trek's standard trajectory with its antagonistic alien cultures, since ST is a franchise that fundamentally believes that societies are not inherently evil and can be reconciled with each-other.

I was speaking from a writer's perspective, but you can translate the concept to in-universe as well if you want. The Borg, unlike other races, embody a very black-and-white interpretation of tyranny. There isn't any nuance in their "society;" they're all mindless drones enslaved to a singular will. Because of that simplicity, the writers could choose to merely have them freed to live as individuals. There's no reason for us to expect or assume that the writers are destined to transform the Collective itself into something peaceful.

I commend them for finding a way to do that if this is indeed where we're headed, but I don't think it was inevitable.

 

[Sci]

I was speaking from a writer's perspective, but you can translate the concept to in-universe as well if you want. The Borg, unlike other races, embody a very black-and-white interpretation of tyranny. There isn't any nuance in their "society;" they're all mindless drones enslaved to a singular will. Because of that simplicity, the writers could choose to merely have them freed to live as individuals. There's no reason for us to expect or assume that the writers are destined to transform the Collective itself into something peaceful.

"Destined?" No. But it's almost inevitable that they would eventually do that, because continuing to write the Borg as irredeemable villains was always going to become boring. There is a point where writers will simply refuse to keep doing the same thing over and over again, because it is creatively unfulfilling and because it will alienate an audience that has seen the same basic story before.

Sure, they could keep doing what they did before, but realistically the pressures of not wanting to keep repeating the same story over and over again would prompt them to start looking for ways to tell a story about reconciliation with the Borg.

 

[fireproof78]

I was speaking from a writer's perspective, but you can translate the concept to in-universe as well if you want. The Borg, unlike other races, embody a very black-and-white interpretation of tyranny. There isn't any nuance in their "society;" they're all mindless drones enslaved to a singular will. Because of that simplicity, the writers could choose to merely have them freed to live as individuals. There's no reason for us to expect or assume that the writers are destined to transform the Collective itself into something peaceful.

I commend them for finding a way to do that if this is indeed where we're headed, but I don't think it was inevitable.

I mean, I do. We saw it with Picard back in TNG. He was berated by an admiral for not killing the Borg through Hugh.

 

[Mr Awe]

Apologies at this point to whomever I may have offended.

The shift from "best ever" to "filler" is odd to me in terms of the intensity of that opinion shift.

No worries. Just watch how you frame things.

At least for me, I never said the first several episodes were "best ever." I don't recall if anyone on this BBS did or not, I don't think so, but it could be. Even if someone did, it's not really surprising that their opinions could change as the quality changed.

I liked the first several. I think rated them as 8s. I almost never give 10s (classics--a few per entire series for a good series), and rarely 9s (near classics). And 8 for me is a above average, thoroughly entertaining and no real strong complaints or weaknesses--but it's not in the classic or near classic territory.

From there, it did drop to filler territory and my ratings dipped down to a minimum of 6 (sub par but not a total failure). The most recent episode was back up to a 7 (average) despite some misgiving about fillers and focusing on non-related topics because it was still entertaining in a light way.

So, that's not quite the swing you're describing. You're exaggerating the intensity of the swing for most people. Maybe someone on this BBS had such a large swing, but that wasn't typical as far as I can tell.

At any rate, I look forward to the newest episode later tonight! Hoping for the best! I feel like it should be picking up again because we're nearing the finale!

 

[fireproof78]

At least for me, I never said the first several episodes were "best ever." I don't recall if anyone on this BBS did or not, I don't think so, but it could be. Even if someone did, it's not really surprising that their opinions could change as the quality changed.

Not feeling like digging it up but yes it was.

So, that's not quite the swing you're describing. You're exaggerating the intensity of the swing for most people. Maybe someone on this BBS had such a large swing, but that wasn't typical as far as I can tell.

I am commenting on my observations. I don't say it is typical, just observing that and finding it quite fascinating from a psychological point of view. Rarely are perspectives typical. Certainly mine are not in this fandom.

At any rate, I look forward to the newest episode later tonight! Hoping for the best! I feel like it should be picking up again because we're nearing the finale!

I hope you enjoy.