Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candor"

[Tarek71]

His journey isn't about him coming face to face to our expectations of what failure is. It's about him coming face to face with his own expectations of himself and what he's done and the consequences for him, very much like we saw him do before in Tapestry. And he did sell the Romulans on the Federation not only saving them all but for everything working out great for everybody, and then when that didn't happen, in disappearing. The rescue had his face on it, so the repercussions we see and Picard feels are real.

There was nothing noble or selfless about resigning from Starfleet and hiding in his Chateaux for 15 years after making himself the face of a massive rescue offer that got recinded. He accused Starfleet of slinking away, but in truth, that was what he did and in facing the effects, is becoming to realize how horrible it was a mistake for him to make.

The problem was his pride/ego would not let him take back his resignation, and it kept him from facing what he did for 15 years.

All of those Romulans WERE saved though. They all owe him their lives. Here they are, alive 14 years later. So his need to atone is for the sins of others? That's what a Moral Mary Sue is. It was noble and selfless to stake his career on saving more of these people. But Starfleet said no. Not him. He didnt ban synths, cause the synth attack, the supernova, or the cancellation of the rescue mission. All that was wrong was done by others. Not him.

So without Starfleet, he should have saved the 900 million anyway? How? And this premises "redemption" on not being even more selfless, noble and morally Mary Sue perfect than he already is.

 

[Tarek71]

No, nothing like that. But he did promise he would come back. It's the same reason he tells the head nun or whatever "I have no right to ask your help." Because he said he would come back and he didn't for 14 years.

He did come back. You mean he should have come back sooner? For what? Visits? Then what? And how does he need to atone for that?

 

[Gilora]

I gave it an 8. The only thing that kept it from being a 9 or a 10: the Cube scenes. Like many here, I find most of those scenes boring and I think it's because of the characters. I don't care what happens to any of them, not even Soji. Oh, I care as far as it relates to the overall plot, but not so much as individuals. And there is no chemistry between Soji and Narek.

About Rios: like others, I think he is a hologram, in spite of the injury scene which could have been faked. In next week's preview, we see him leave the ship, but he may have a mobile emitter.

Was the ibn Majid a ship crewed by holograms with a corporeal captain? That would explain why Star Fleet erased its existence.

 

[Roboturner913]

All of those Romulans WERE saved though. They all owe him their lives. Here they are, alive 14 years later. So his need to atone is for the sins of others? That's what a Moral Mary Sue is. It was noble and selfless to stake his career on saving more of these people. But Starfleet said no. Not him. He didnt ban synths, cause the synth attack, the supernova, or the cancellation of the rescue mission. All that was wrong was done by others. Not him.

So without Starfleet, he should have saved the 900 million anyway? How? And this premises "redemption" on not being even more selfless, noble and morally Mary Sue perfect than he already is.

It seems to me, the people on the show who have beef with him are not upset that he failed, but that he stopped trying.

 

[Crewman6]

I'd suggest the 'wildly out of character' part is precisely why those people have been so disappointed with him. Disappointment is generally wrapped up in high expectations.

Your second point is definitely something to think about though. Those parts do seem thinly written; either that or Picard is a selfish asshole and we know that's not true.

And that's really my macro problem with the show. It's not "about" anything meaningful. At least not really.

They're dropping a lot of emotional beats and backstory that feels like it should matter....but, in the actual here-and-now of the storyline, nothing connects and nothing adds up.

While it's nice that Cranky Old Man Picard finds something to care about again after "waiting to die" living a boring life on the vineyard, what gets him off the couch is almost entirely unrelated to all the other things the show is throwing at us with the convoluted backstory about the supernova and the attack and everything.

Those aspects of the show -- which the writers are spending a LOT of time on -- fundamentally don't matter thematically to what Picard is doing in the present.

It's not like Picard is trying to lead a movement to get the Federation Council to re-think its synth ban. Or is trying to help the Romulan diaspora become more stable and more settled in an attempt to help make up for the failure to help them so long ago.

(not that those would necessarily make for good TV, but why bother with such a complex backstory when it really doesn't affect the actual heart of your show...?)

 

[Tarek71]

Forgive me, but it seems that a common thrust of Star Trek has been that morality and ethics are not limited to law and fate. There may be times when our characters can only content themselves to those limits. And Picard has always stood for that thrust more than other characters. This episode ably demonstrated that Picard bound whole peoples to him with his promises, and quitting and withdrawing from public life condemned them to a particular end.

A moral Mary Sue? Perhaps in a sense, he was. Having the strength of the Enterprise behind him gave Picard the unique ability to do what he knew was right without dire consequences. That is no longer true in this series. Picard must face the fact that his choices--his promises--don't always produce moral outcomes.

That's just it. He didnt condemn them to this. That would be true if he had ordered an end to the rescue mission. But he didnt. And that's why there is no personal redemption that he needs. None of this is his fault. It is the fault of Starfleet, the Federation, the people who launched the synth attack, etc. None of which is one him. If they wanted him to have a journey of redemption, make it about how he is responsible for this. At least some of it. They didnt though.

 

[Roboturner913]

He did come back. You mean he should have come back sooner? For what? Visits? Then what? And how does he need to atone for that?

The episode makes it apparent he was on that planet quite a lot. He even kinda says it used to be "home" at one point. When he tells everybody there "I'll be back" they surely didn't think it would be 14 years. The kid was, what, 7 or 8? If I walked out on a kid I had a relationship with and tried to come back in 14 years I'd sure as hell feel shitty about missing that 14 years. And he did this to basically everybody.

 

[MvRojo]

I'm sorry, I'm not a ship aficionado, so revile me if you will, but why is an original Romulan Bird of Prey not painted like a giant bird? Because THAT'S super cool.

It was painted with a giant bird on the underside.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That's just it. He didnt condemn them to this. That would be true if he had ordered an end to the rescue mission. But he didnt. And that's why there is no personal redemption that he needs. None of this is his fault. It is the fault of Starfleet, the Federation, the people who launched the synth attack, etc. None of which is one him. If they wanted him to have a journey of redemption, make it about how he is responsible for this. At least some of it. They didnt though.

I guess this is why you don't get it: you refuse to see that morality does not end with one's actions, but the consequences thereof. Quitting did not wash Picard's hands of the affair. He promised the Romulans a champion, and he stepped down.

 

[Roboturner913]

And that's really my macro problem with the show. It's not "about" anything meaningful. At least not really.

I think you and me are proceeding from different ideals of what "meaningful" has to be in the context of this show. And that's fine. I do see your point.

 

[thribs]

No. It always meant "of Earth" and has been used in multiple context, not just in the MU.

I said it was fine. I always took it to mean a Earth born human.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

don't matter thematically to what Picard is doing.

It's not like Picard is trying to lead a movement to get the Federation Council to re-think its synth ban. Or is trying to help the Romulan diaspora become more stable and more settled in an attempt to help make up for the failure to help them so long ago.

No, Picard is not trying to right past wrongs with the Romulans, either for himself or Starfleet. However, the narrative is forcing him to confront the consequences of his withdrawal from public life, perhaps forcing him to rethink what he did. Indeed, two members of his "crew" were, in different ways, affected by his decision, meaning that he will be constantly challenged with the idea that quitting Starfleet (or at least retiring to his vineyard) was more than a bone-headed move.

 

[Tarek71]

The episode makes it apparent he was on that planet quite a lot. He even kinda says it used to be "home" at one point. When he tells everybody there "I'll be back" they surely didn't think it would be 14 years. The kid was, what, 7 or 8? If I walked out on a kid I had a relationship with and tried to come back in 14 years I'd sure as hell feel shitty about missing that 14 years. And he did this to basically everybody.

Sure, he was on the planet because he was part of the effort to rescue and resettle them. He did everything he could have. All he could have done as a civilian with no fleet, is come for visits, which he had no moral obligation to do. But even if you think he should have visited a few times since then, how does that change anything? He is not obligated to be this kids surrogate Dad. No doubt there are many Romulan orphans. Does he have to be their Dad too? Saying he didnt go even farther above and beyond the call of duty than he already had is not something you need to be redeemed for.

It would have been easy breezy to make him responsible for SOMETHING here. But instead Mary Sue Picard feels bad about not being even more morally perfect than he already is? He should have taken on even more that he had no reason or requirement to do?

 

[Roboturner913]

He should have taken on even more that he had no reason or requirement to do?

He made promises. I think it's totally believable he feels bad for not keeping them, even if his reasons for not keeping them weren't totally within his control.

I would not consider myself a "moral Mary Sue" (to borrow the phrase you keep using) but at my job I've felt bad about customers that got the shit end of the stick from my company even though I had nothing to do with it. I've also gone above/beyond on occasion well outside my job responsblities to do something about it. I don't think it's that abnormal to feel that way.

And I'm just some slob web guy, not a decorated/devoted military man with 50+ years of service.

 

[Tarek71]

He made promises. I think it's totally believable he feels bad for not keeping them, even if his reasons for not keeping them weren't totally within his control.

I would not consider myself a "moral Mary Sue" (to borrow the phrase you keep using) but at my job I've felt bad about customers that got the shit end of the stick from my company even though I had nothing to do with it. I've also gone above/beyond on occasion well outside my job responsblities to do something about it. I don't think it's that abnormal to feel that way.

And I'm just some slob web guy, not a decorated/devoted military man with 50+ years of service.

Yes, but he didnt break the promises. We all agree that he can feel bad about them. Ive said that again and again. He might feel bad about the moral failings of OTHER PEOPLE, but these are not his failings. He doesnt need redemption for something someone else did wrong. Indeed, it is ALWAYS someone elses fault here. That makes him a Moral Mary Sue. So while it is understandable that he, or you, feel bad about it, there is no redemption he needs or requires here. He didnt do anything wrong.

 

[Roboturner913]

Yes, but he didnt break the promises. We all agree that he can feel bad about them. Ive said that again and again. He might feel about the moral failings of OTHER PEOPLE, but these are not his failings. He doesnt need redemption for something someone else did wrong. Indeed, it is ALWAYS someone elses fault here. That makes him a Moral Mary Sue. So while it is understandable that he, or you, feel bad about it, there is no redemption he needs or requires here. He didnt do anything wrong.

Tell him that? I don't see anybody else on the show demanding he do X, Y or Z. He's taking it on himself.

I suspect we could circle this for hours, but IMO, his main "failing" in his mind, was not the big-picture issues but the smaller, more personal ones. When you look somebody in the face and make them a promise, and you really mean it/care, and then you don't keep it, that's a shitty feeling.

 

[Alan Roi]

All of those Romulans WERE saved though. They all owe him their lives. Here they are, alive 14 years later. So his need to atone is for the sins of others? That's what a Moral Mary Sue is. It was noble and selfless to stake his career on saving more of these people. But Starfleet said no. Not him. He didnt ban synths, cause the synth attack, the supernova, or the cancellation of the rescue mission. All that was wrong was done by others. Not him.

So without Starfleet, he should have saved the 900 million anyway? How? And this premises "redemption" on not being even more selfless, noble and morally Mary Sue perfect than he already is.

Wow. People just love the term 'Mary Sue' that they can't stop making up new definitions for it. There is no such thing as a 'Moral Mary Sue' and the concept is risible.

Picard made himself the face of the Romulan rescue operations. He made grandiose promises that he said would be delivered on and weren't. Yes it wasn't entirely his fault they weren't, but people like to have someone they can blame their misfortunes on, and he did make those promises. Then Picard did make a conscious choice to run away instead of continue to keep fighting or even admit he couldn't live up to his promises, so that hatred festered. And he and we can see this laid out in the episode.

It's not an accident that aphorisms like "A promise is a trap", "You couldn't save everyone, so you chose to save no one," and "I allowed the perfect to be the enemy of the good," inform us what is going on here. I get it that you don't care for this line of storytelling, but to anyone watching it's pretty clear what it going on and it's not an unrealistic turn of events and it doesn't turn Picard into a "Moral Mary Sue" because by letting his pride and self-righteousness prevent himself from facing the music and carry one fighting the good fight, he fucked up.

 

[sevenstars]

It was painted with a giant bird on the underside.

Was it? I even went back and looked. I thought I saw something, but not the big beautiful wings.
It tells me I'm unworthy of HD-- maybe that would have helped.

 

[Seven of Five]

Seven! Although it was a shame seeing Jeri Ryan's name in the opening credits as it spoiled the surprise. It was still fun seeing her pop up at the end and be the one fighting Picard.

I enjoyed this episode, and it flew by quicker than the last couple did. The show, on the whole, is still a but setup heavy, but I liked we had a mostly self-contained story with recruiting Elnor, and Picard trying to come to terms with his and Starfleet's failure of the Romulans.

So as well as being the medical hologram, Chris is also the hospitality program. That really made me smile, especially with Chris getting so angry at it.

 

[SJGardner]

Picard promised the Romulans he'd help them. And then, when Starfleet decided to call off the operation, he, instead of continuing to fight and seeking alternatives, literally rage quits and disappears into the French countryside for fourteen years.

I'd think the Romulans are perfectly justified in feeling that he failed them. He didn't even try. Why shouldn't they? "Oh, mr. Firefighter, of course I understand that my family burned to death in our house because you decided to resign on a whim after the fire brigade refused to send reinforcements because there was a bombing at the shipyard, but you still got me out before the flames got too high, so we're good? I'm forever in your debt!"