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Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

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Like, I get they wanted to explain why we don’t see Geordie, Bev, etc, but the explanation they used was pretty weak sauce.

Indeed it was. "I can't possibly ask them because they'll say yes."

Um....okay, I get not wanting to rope your friends into something for their sake. But the pivot was stupid. "Find someone with nothing to lose who hates you." Um, say what?

I mean, I guess they kinda had to have that conversation.....but the way they answered it was dumb.
 
Counterpoint: it’s not like he’s asking them to invest in his time share. If he believes this situation strikes as the very heart of the Federation itself, why would he begin this mission with one hand tied around his back? His former crew are probably some of the most respected in their fields in the Federation. He doesn’t necessarily have to ask for their direct support, like uprooting their lives and flying around with him—that might be of dubious usefulness—but the information and resources they could uncover for him would undoubtedly be immensely useful.

Again, if his mission is that important, it would be moronic not to use the best resources he has, and he could do it in such a way that his former crew’s direct involvement would be minimal.

Like, I get they wanted to explain why we don’t see Geordie, Bev, etc, but the explanation they used was pretty weak sauce.

still disagree. He’s going against the direct wishes of Starfleet. Not wanting to ask them to join him on a mission like that especially if he already did that once makes sense to me.
 
still disagree. He’s going against the direct wishes of Starfleet. Not wanting to ask them to join him on a mission like that especially if he already did that once makes sense to me.

It seems to me that Picard doesn't want to put his former crew (friends) nor their careers in jeopardy to go off on his damned fool idealistic crusade and is going to get some expendable mercenaries.
 
If he believes this situation strikes as the very heart of the Federation itself, why would he begin this mission with one hand tied around his back? .

Another issue so far -- in no way, shape or form does Picard's mission (at least as he currently understands it) "strike at the heart of the Federation."

He's literally just chasing down one android because she might be related to Data and she's probably in danger.

But those are very small, limited stakes that have zero to do with the "heart of the Federation" and they don't connect thematically with what the Federation did (and failed to do) years ago regarding the Romulan evacuation.

The show is pretty unfocused at the moment in that regard. Picard's present day mission has almost nothing to do with the very elaborate backstory the show has given us (it's tangentially related to the synth attack, but only a little and not at all connected to the Romulan supernova.) And it doesn't connect thematically, either, as Picard isn't trying to get Starfleet's act together after their previous moral failings.
 
But he was diagnosed by Beverly in the "present."
It was the "Anti-time" present, which technically takes place in an alternate timeline created by Q..

However it's now clear that that was based on the true timeline, regardless. In the 2370 Anti Time Present Crusher needed a level 4 scan, and even then it was insanely small "but could lead to other disorders, including Irumodic Syndrome"
 
How would they know? Hugh didn't have any hair the last time we saw him.

Please tell me I didn't need a ;) for that to be recognized as sarcasm.


I was of that opinion as well.
But it seems that the person Seven is holding is wearing a similar outfit as Hugh.
And we haven't seen Hugh up close from the back yet in the show.

I keep seeing red clothing, or at least shoulders on the clothing, in that scene. Does Hugh wear anything other than gray from what we've seen?

Plus there's still the matter of why Hugh would be so important to Seven. The original theories were Chakotay or Icheb in a flashback, both of whom meant a lot more to Seven.
 
It was the "Anti-time" present, which technically takes place in an alternate timeline created by Q..

However it's now clear that that was based on the true timeline, regardless. In the 2370 Anti Time Present Crusher needed a level 4 scan, and even then it was insanely small "but could lead to other disorders, including Irumodic Syndrome"

There's absolutely nothing to suggest Q "made it up" and indeed that would have been a pointlessly cruel thing to do.

You shouldn't assume things that have zero basis in the text.
 
So one of the theories going on at reddit is that the Zhat Vash hate androids because they don't want anyone finding out that either the Vulcan or Romulan species is actually a biological android race created by the other.
 
There's absolutely nothing to suggest Q "made it up" and indeed that would have been a pointlessly cruel thing to do.

You shouldn't assume things that have zero basis in the text.

I'm not assuming anything. That event, Crusher diagnosing Picard, takes place in the "anti-time" timeline which Picard found himself in at Q's creation. At the end of AGT Picard is taken back to the very start, Stardate 47988, and none of it happened, he goes back to his quarters after being very awkward with Worf and Troi. There was no reason to think it was ever based in reality as it was a device that Q used to test Picard. Now in the true timeline we see that it was indeed there.

Also, "pointlessly cruel"? Q created a future where Troi was dead and Worf and Riker were estranged. Crusher and Picard were divorced? That's not pointlessly cruel yet Picard having a brain defect would be?
 
I'm not assuming anything. That event, Crusher diagnosing Picard, takes place in the "anti-time" timeline which Picard found himself in at Q's creation. At the end of AGT Picard is taken back to the very start, Stardate 47988, and none of it happened, he goes back to his quarters after being very awkward with Worf and Troi. There was no reason to think it was ever based in reality as it was a device that Q used to test Picard. Now in the true timeline we see that it was indeed there.
It could well have been based on reality if you assume the knowledge Picard took back and told everyone changed the timeline. Data thus installed his emotions chip at a different time, the Ent-D isn't destroyed, etc.

Insurrection, which didn't happen in the AGT timeline, may have delayed Picard's irumodic syndrome onset by a few years because he was on a rejuvenating planet.
 
Wow, so much to unpack here, let's see. I voted 8, subtracting points mainly for my dissatisfaction at how bluntly and rapidly the Romulan infiltration of Starfleet was revealed, but more on that later.

So we're upping the ante with not one, but two f-bombs. I haven't read through the thread but I can already smell the meltdown. I think both of them were justified, they showcased Laris' raw emotionality as well as the Admiral's (in her eyes) righteous outrage. But then again, even Tilly's f-bomb worked for me, so I might not be the person to judge this.

The opening teaser and the last scene gave us a beautiful framing for the episode, once again stating the glaringly obvious fact that the Federation is ridiculously gullible and susceptible to infiltration, despite the ever-growing set of evidence proving this crucial weakness over and over again, from Tyler and Darvin through Romulans serving as high-ranked members of the diplomatic corps to the Dominion War of recent memory. And once again, not only did someone, presumably the new Romulan enemy remotely reprogram a bunch of androids to destroy Utopia Planitia, but after the scene with Oh and Rizzo, it's even possible that the signal was even sent from the Presidio itself! I'm starting to suspect we'll learn in Discovery that the Federation was eventually destroyed from within.

Anyway, at least we have our villains now. Both Oh and Rizzo were overtly antagonistic their whole being, and I was actually disappointed that the series opted to out them as Romulans right away. The moment Oh appeared and started talking, my first thought was "Three hundred quatloos on her being a Romulan." But on the other hand, Rizzo was genuinely creepy and unsettling, and with the revelation that she was Narek's sister, I eventually almost expected her to call him Zuzu at some point from how she seemed to treat him. Their dynamic gave serious Azula v. Zuko vibes to me (I can't help it, I'm a serious Avatar: The Last Airbender fan). I wonder if this will also extend to Narek's arc as well... will he eventually realize he's on the wrong side and have a change of heart, cutting strings with his own people to save the galaxy? He might be conducting a honey trap, but something tells me he does genuinely like Soji, or at least will end up having his doubts soon.

And poor Picard, he apparently can't escape Irumodic Syndrome after all. Even with that, it was so like him that the first thing after facing his mortality was to jump right into the action and make his remaining time worth something. His determination was palpable, even though it was very sad to see the Admiral's 'how the mighty have fallen' reaction to it. As for characterization, Soji's heart (mainly through her insistence that Borg are people too and her concentrated efforts to make her new colleague feel at ease) was portrayed nicely as well.

Random tidbits:
  • Absolutely loved the replicator/microwave combo on Mars, complete with a ping! It reminded me of Leeloo eating chicken.
  • Whoever did the reprogramming was very adept at covering their tracks, they even made sure to make the androids destroy their own brains just in case some didn't disintegrate in the bombing.
  • I loved Laris' explanation of how machine learning works, even if it reminded me that I have work tomorrow doing basically the same thing.
  • Everything about Dahj's apartment, like how it was in a perfectly ordinary 19th century block as well as how the interface of her civilian computer wasn't based on LCARS.
  • Did the right monitor in the CNC's office show the Star Charts map? The color scheme and the relative positions of the blobs suggested so.
  • Random (probably accidental) shout-out I loved: Oh is played by Tamlyn Tomita, who played the original XO of Babylon 5 in its pilot before opting out. She was originally planned to be the traitor working for Psi Corps through an implanted second personality, and who shot Garibaldi in the back to prevent him from stopping the President's assassination.


TNG had numerous examples of big epic melodrama where the worst word uttered by far was "dammit". Any show can. Even Sesame Street could if it ever went down that avenue... if I wanted to watch people making f-bombs everywhere I'd watch "Total Recall" or go to any old bar or strip club.

F-bombs are juvenile. Not adult. It's that simple.
 
It could well have been based on reality if you assume the knowledge Picard took back and told everyone changed the timeline. Data thus installed his emotions chip at a different time, the Ent-D isn't destroyed, etc.

Insurrection, which didn't happen in the AGT timeline, may have delayed Picard's irumodic syndrome onset by a few years because he was on a rejuvenating planet.

Well that's my point..it was a possible future based on the life of Picard, as it was, on on SD 47988. Picard did inherently prevent that future by telling Riker and Worf of what happened, etc.

The time he spent on Baku certainly could have delayed the onset, absolutely
 
TNG had numerous examples of big epic melodrama where the worst word uttered by far was "dammit". Any show can. Even Sesame Street could if it ever went down that avenue... if I wanted to watch people making f-bombs everywhere I'd watch "Total Recall" or go to any old bar or strip club.

F-bombs are juvenile. Not adult. It's that simple.

F-bombs are reality. So is "oh shit!" by Data childish in Generations?
 
Honestly this irumodic syndrome strikes me as forced drama that detracts from the show's message. The idea is supposed to be people are ignoring Picard because they've lost their way and values, not because they don't believe him because of his medical issues.
 
So if the Tal Shiar are the Romulan equivalent to Federation Intelligence, would that make the Zhat Vash the Romulan analogue to Section 31?

I'm a little confused. It was mentioned their history goes back a thousand years. Has this secret cabal hated AI & synthetic life that whole time or is this a more recent development?
I have been checking up what happens in the episode as I cant access it yet.

If something happened with AI thousands of years ago it must have been very serious indeed for the Zhat Vash to still exist, did it have something to do with the schism that caused the split between Romulans and Vulcans or is it even further back.

Its no surprise that they struck Mars with all those Synths working there, perfect opportunity to show what can go wrong before the Federation passes the point of no return.

Its also entirely possible that some in Starfleet agree with the Zhat Vash and help them without being members, could be any race really but most likely Vulcan which could indicate that it happened before they split.

I dont think the Zhat Vash are the equivalent of S31, their remit is too narrow and is more akin to zealotry, it must be said that they may have a very good reason for being the way they are.
 
Maybe it's just old plain Alzheimer's...
Should have been cured by the 24th century. That's why the schizophrenia mention last episode was so jarring. There should at least be a tricorder test for that now.
I have been checking up what happens in the episode as I cant access it yet.

If something happened with AI thousands of years ago it must have been very serious indeed for the Zhat Vash to still exist, did it have something to do with the schism that caused the split between Romulans and Vulcans or is it even further back.

Its no surprise that they struck Mars with all those Synths working there, perfect opportunity to show what can go wrong before the Federation passes the point of no return.

Its also entirely possible that some in Starfleet agree with the Zhat Vash and help them without being members, could be any race really but most likely Vulcan which could indicate that it happened before they split.

I dont think the Zhat Vash are the equivalent of S31, their remit is too narrow and is more akin to zealotry, it must be said that they may have a very good reason for being the way they are.
So one of the theories going on at reddit is that the Zhat Vash hate androids because they don't want anyone finding out that either the Vulcan or Romulan species is actually a biological android race created by the other.
 
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