Star Trek: Nemesis at 20 - Has Your Opinion Changed Over the Years?

[cardinal biggles]

I still haven't been able to bring myself to rewatch this film since opening night in 2002. Let that speak for itself.

Whether I'm considering all 13 movies together or just the 10 in the prime timeline, Nemesis always comes dead last. Even with its shameless cribbing of plot points and emotional beats from Wrath of Khan, Into Darkness was still more entertaining. As hokey as the story was and as bad as the VFX were, The Final Frontier at least had heart and was trying to say something. Nemesis was... it was just there. I think the only time I've been more disappointed at a movie theater was The Rise of Skywalker, and even then it wasn't until I got in my car and drove home that that film's mediocrity started to hit me. With Nemesis, I knew about 20 minutes in that the tagline on the poster — "A Generation's Final Journey Begins" — was wrong; this was going to stick a fork in it and call it done.

 

[fireproof78]

still haven't been able to bring myself to rewatch this film since opening night in 2002. Let that speak for itself.

There are enough other films to watch? I love many films, but my rewatching is far more limited nowadays. So, yeah, this message is mixed. I'll assume it's bad...

 

[cardinal biggles]

^Well, in that 20 year space of time, I've found time to rewatch the other 12 Trek movies at least once, even the three that came out after Nemesis. So yeah.

 

[fireproof78]

^Well, in that 20 year space of time, I've found time to rewatch the other 12 Trek movies at least once, even the three that came out after Nemesis. So yeah.

Thanks for the clarification.

In the last twenty years I've rewatched three of the Trek films. So, yeah...

 

[Prometheus59650]

Opinion unchanged.

Still a bad movie for a host of reasons, but better than Insurrection.

 

[Dukhat]

Some "dark'n'depressing" is okay. TWOK handled it surprisingly well. So did TOS: "The Omega Glory" has a goofy ending thanks to it being an original unused pilot dug up and reused, but it starts out pretty dire too with a creepy and horrific death sentence that still gives chills to this day, with plotting handled fairly well. "Charlie X" also ramps up the horror element, and it's no less dark and depressing to have an unstable teenager with godlike powers used maliciously and partly due to him being a teen and acting out of angst...

I think you misunderstood me. When I mentioned that they made DSC and PIC dark and depressing, I wasn’t referring to the stories. I was referring to the set design.

 

[cooleddie74]

Friday was the 20th Anniversary of the world premiere. Today marks 20 years since the U.S. theatrical release.

 

[cooleddie74]

I'm not a big fan of the film but damn, is the soundtrack sublime.

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[Iamnotspock]

I especially like Riker reminiscing his first encounter with Data.

Though it was actually his second. We can put it down to Riker's faulty 15-year-old memory.

There's more thought put into Picard's speech about the wine's origins and the dirt and philosophical allusion that arose from that than for most of the rest of the movie. It's mind-boggling that the movie has little gems like these, it does change one's perception... The scene then followed by Data's terrific question regarding ambivalence is just as poignant and adding more purpose and point TO the movie. That is truly a great scene. Why was it removed? Because it wasn't actioney enough? (Action is great, but grounding to give the action more than what's akin to a drug-addled high is far better. Like "lust vs love" and all that.)

I assume so. I recall the DVD Deleted Scenes section, which featured an overall introduction, and one for each scene, from Stuart Baird, Rick Berman and the actors. Berman says that he feels they made the right choices in what they cut and that there wasn't anything taken out that didn't belong to be taken out. Cut to Patrick Stewart saying, "There was a very important scene between Picard and Data, that I was very sad to lose..."

I can't add much to what others have said. There's a good idea at the core of it but the final cut is so awkward and uncomfortable.

 

[Qonundrum]

I think you misunderstood me. When I mentioned that they made DSC and PIC dark and depressing, I wasn’t referring to the stories. I was referring to the set design.

Good point. The Schmitar interior and exterior were definitely dark (didn't Shinzon say he had a condition requiring darkness? If not, I'll settle for "Movieplotitis"), but then the 1701-E also had darker corridor sets.

Still better than the planet o' dunebuggies where everything's blooming/overexposed. It's an interesting style and contrast, but it didn't fit the movie. Then again, with the movie's script being more all-over-the-place than any number of my posts, it'd be hard for a director, photography crew, etc, to have to find and hone something.

 

[jaime]

Shinzon faked Rene Picard's death.

Shinzon faked Robert Picard's death.

Man and boy were in a Romulan lab being milked.

Shinzon was the author of all of Jean-Lucs pain…

 

[Qonundrum]

Though it was actually his second. We can put it down to Riker's faulty 15-year-old memory.



I assume so. I recall the DVD Deleted Scenes section, which featured an overall introduction, and one for each scene, from Stuart Baird, Rick Berman and the actors. Berman says that he feels they made the right choices in what they cut and that there wasn't anything taken out that didn't belong to be taken out. Cut to Patrick Stewart saying, "There was a very important scene between Picard and Data, that I was very sad to lose..."

I can't add much to what others have said. There's a good idea at the core of it but the final cut is so awkward and uncomfortable.

I wish Stewart had been able to have that scene kept. There's so much in the movie that's good or had potential, but it's a mess. The more I think about it, the more the director was caught with a first draft script.

But all in all, NEM > INS is where I stand as well. I bought the blu-ray and should give it another watch. Hopefully the TNG films will get 4K releases as well... As much as I tend to nitpick, they all do have great moments and I nitpick out of disappointment (hate-watching is dumb, and pointless.) The more I've read, the more NEM could have been a lot more robust with just a couple tweaks. One more mild rewrite could have made a difference... I recall being hyped at the time for more TNG.

 

[cooleddie74]

One Deleted Scene is brief but references Zefram Cochrane being the origin of the famous Trek narration, making this an ENT reference. One of two in the movie(the other being the U.S.S. Archer sent as part of the fleet to meet up with the Enterprise-E before the Battle of the Bassen Rift).

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[M.A.C.O.]

I first saw the movie back in 2009. I was riding the high if the 2009 film and bought every piece of Trek media I could. When I first saw NEM, I had marathoned all of TNG in under a month. I watched all 4 films and my NEM left me drained. I recall by the end if it, I felt as beat up as the ENT-E after the battle with the Scimitar. It certainly wasn’t my favorite.

Now, NEM is my second favorite TNG film. It’s one of the films I show my non-Trek friends when they want to have a movie night. Free of the continuity, the enjoy the space opera nature of the film and the action.

Myself, I see where the film’s reach exceeded its grasp. But I still find it enjoyable. There are dodgy elements sure. But there is nothing in it that spoils the experience like stuff found in GEN and INS. Plus, that epic score by Jerry Goldsmith!

I'm not a big fan of the film but damn, is the soundtrack sublime.

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Nemesis has a lot of tracks I enjoy.
I’ll list my favorites here.


NEM - The Mirror
NEM - The Scorpion
NEM - Lateral Run
NEM - Final Flight

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[Vger23]

One Deleted Scene is brief but references Zefram Cochrane being the origin of the famous Trek narration, making this an ENT reference. One of two in the movie(the other being the U.S.S. Archer sent as part of the fleet to meet up with the Enterprise-E before the Battle of the Bassen Rift).

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Damn, did they drop the ball by leaving stuff like this on the cutting room floor….ughhh!

 

[Lord Garth]

^Well, in that 20 year space of time, I've found time to rewatch the other 12 Trek movies at least once, even the three that came out after Nemesis. So yeah.

I can sympathize. I haven't watched DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin" since it first premiered in 1996. Whereas (in comparison) I even re-watched "Threshold" ONCE in 2008 to see if I was too harsh on it way back when. I came to the conclusion that I was right the first time and will never re-watch it again. After that experience, I definitely didn't want to go back to "Let He Who Is Without Sin". Sometimes once is all you need.

 

[Summer Solstice]

Good point. The Schmitar interior and exterior were definitely dark (didn't Shinzon say he had a condition requiring darkness? If not, I'll settle for "Movieplotitis"), but then the 1701-E also had darker corridor sets.

Still better than the planet o' dunebuggies where everything's blooming/overexposed. It's an interesting style and contrast, but it didn't fit the movie. Then again, with the movie's script being more all-over-the-place than any number of my posts, it'd be hard for a director, photography crew, etc, to have to find and hone something.

There's a scene where the Remans beam over to the Enterprise. If the Enterprise crew had just turned up the lights they would have had a massive tactical advantage.

The dunebuggies planet scene didn't make sense: we can't beam down because they are pre-warp, but we can get close enough to them so that they can see aliens exist and let them see a shuttle fly out of the atmosphere. Really?

I wish Stewart had been able to have that scene kept. There's so much in the movie that's good or had potential, but it's a mess. The more I think about it, the more the director was caught with a first draft script.

But all in all, NEM > INS is where I stand as well. I bought the blu-ray and should give it another watch. Hopefully the TNG films will get 4K releases as well... As much as I tend to nitpick, they all do have great moments and I nitpick out of disappointment (hate-watching is dumb, and pointless.) The more I've read, the more NEM could have been a lot more robust with just a couple tweaks. One more mild rewrite could have made a difference... I recall being hyped at the time for more TNG.

I can't remember how I felt when I first saw Nemesis other than a bit disappointed. I agree there's a lot of potential in the movie - I think the core is what Data said to Picard about how he has aspirations that Shinzon doesn't - but there are so many things that throw me out of the movie, like that giving B4 all Data's memories is a bad idea and it's clearly a bad idea to go through the rift where they can't have long distance communications when they are bait for a cloaked ship and it doesn't make sense for Picard to beam over to Shinzon's ship alone, they should have sent a strike team with him. I prefer INS, even though the story isn't that good, INS is fun. I'm ok with Data's death now, perhaps because I knew it was coming.

I think some of the deleted scenes would add a lot to the film. I think the scene where Riker talked about meeting Data should have been longer and included more of the characters talking about Data. They could have had time for that if the dune buggy scene was them beaming down and collecting B4 instead of using dune buggies and if the action scenes later in the film were shorter. As an action movie, it's really good, as a movie about a group of characters that I care about, it's not amazing.

 

[ananta]

In the last twenty years I've rewatched three of the Trek films. So, yeah...

I must confess I’m a big rewatcher: I rewatch the first six films at least once a year. But only the first six. I rarely have any desire to go onto the rest. The first six are pure comfort movies, even TFF.

 

[Relayer1]

Not a rewatcher at all, but Nemesis is still my favourite TNG movie. Which is faint praise as absolutely none of them came anywhere close to the show at it's best.

Or it's average-est, to be honest.

 

[cardinal biggles]

...but then the 1701-E also had darker corridor sets.

It's really a shame, too, because the Enterprise-E corridor set was actually pretty cool, but we very rarely got to see it under normal lighting conditions. In First Contact it was either dark or Borged, and it's dark in the corridor fight with the Remans. When you see it in Insurrection, it's a walk & talk, so it's pretty easy to ignore what's in the background.