Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x08 - "If Memory Serves"

[fireproof78]

Except with those close to you there are generally a wealth of positive memories to mitigate the pain of the negative ones (they [Spock/Burnham] certainly did if we are to believe they were once as close as alluded to). What we were given between Spock and Michael in this episode was pretty weak. If their relationship was that fragile then I'd say they had both been lying to themselves and each other as to the sincerity and depth of their affection. Yes, there can be defining scars but to go from "loving siblings" to "you're dead to me (until I can use you)" is a pretty severe swing. One that would be motivated by more than what we given in this episode.

This is surface level analysis, at best. Many relationships can end or go cold due to one event, regardless of how many warm memories are there. I certainly have lost three friends over one event, and these are friends that I had known since I was in 5th grade (read 11, now 34). The mind can be a very fragile thing.

 

[Succubint]

To you, perhaps. To others it rings absolutely logical, true and as heartbreaking as they may have experienced themselves in their own lives.

 

[Noname Given]

I like the tale that is being spun here. Also the teasing - tantalizing hints of the antagonist, without giving too much away, leaving room for speculation and fan discussion.

Although, one thing did take me out of the story flow for a brief moment - "SQL injection" ? I mean, really? It's the 23rd century and with all that advanced technology they're still using SQL? Anyway, rant over.

Wait until next week when we see a "Blue Screen of Death" on one of the Discovery ship displays.

 

[DaveyNY]

SJW = Sad Jaded Whiners ?

 

[fireproof78]

Wait until next week when we see a "Blue Screen of Death" on one of the Discovery ship displays.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

This is surface level analysis, at best. Many relationships can end or go cold due to one event, regardless of how many warm memories are there. I certainly have lost three friends over one event, and these are friends that I had known since I was in 5th grade (read 11, now 34). The mind can be a very fragile thing.

Well, considering none of us can question or talk with either Spock or Burnham (as they don't exist) that is true. True for all sides. Thanks for clarifying the obvious.

As for the specifics of the Spock-Burnham incident well, from what we have been given, it does not add up from either side. Spock refusing Burnham's attempts at healing the rift and Burnham accepting that refusal. This series is full of her not taking no for an answer. It's how it all started in season 1. Her later forcing the issue with Amanda. It's been a hallmark of character. So it just doesn't add up from either character's perspective. That's why so very many (especially outside this forum) have issues with it.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, considering none of us can question or talk with either Spock or Burnham (as they don't exist) that is true. True for all sides. Thanks for clarifying the obvious.

As for the specifics of the Spock-Burnham incident well, from what we have been given, it does not add up from either side. Spock refusing Burnham's attempts at healing the rift and Burnham accepting that refusal. This series is full of her not taking no for an answer. It's how it all started in season 1. Her later forcing the issue with Amanda. It's been a hallmark of character. So it just doesn't add up from either character's perspective. That's why so very many (especially outside this forum) have issues with it.

It adds up fine for me. But, I've seen a lot of psychologically hurt people, including my wife, and work with those suffering mental illness. You will forgive me if I find way more realism in this relationship than I do with TNG relationships.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

To you, perhaps. To others it rings absolutely logical, true and as heartbreaking as they may have experienced themselves in their own lives.

No, the above reads more like someone is projecting regardless of what was or was not actually portrayed on screen.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

It adds up fine for me. But, I've seen a lot of psychologically hurt people, including my wife, and work with those suffering mental illness. You will forgive me if I find way more realism in this relationship than I do with TNG relationships.

You have my forgiveness as the relationships in TNG are not at issue and your above quoted post strike me as a deflection on your part. That's fine though. I'm cool.

 

[fireproof78]

You have my forgiveness as the relationships in TNG are not at issue and your above quoted post strike me as a deflection on your part. That's fine though. I'm cool.

How so? Individuals handle stressors differently, especially given the nature of the relationship. I do not find Burnham or Spock acting out of character as being asserted based upon personal experience.

 

[Succubint]

That's the same with anyone arguing it's no big deal because of their anecdotal experience with their siblings at each others throats. It reminds me of when people say, "my parents gave me the belt but I turned out fine," when there's a discussion about child abuse and studies have shown that physical punishment can have lasting detrimental effects.

Things resonate or they don't because of our human experiences. That's to be expected. There will always be a subjectivity to how we interpret drama in arts. That said, there is still a lot of real life evidence out there that young children can be permanently scarred by events such as what was portrayed in the episode. Children commit suicide because of peer bullying or cyber bullying. And yes, due to siblings tormenting them, too. By trying to negate the severity of how this scene impacted not just Spock, but also Michael and the entire family, I think it does a disservice to and belittles those who went through something similar and can relate.

 

[TrickyDickie]

It's like a Judge Judy episode when she says, "If it doesn't make sense then it's a lie." Now, yes, different people may react differently, but in actuality, on average, people don't.

Judge Judy comes across as very arrogant and dismissive. "If it doesn't make sense, then it's a lie."....Doesn't make sense to who? To her? In the real world, it is so often the case that when something doesn't make sense it is because there are pieces of information that are missing. It is her kind of attitude that is getting more and more people these days falsely accused of things that they did not do.

People don't react differently? This idea that humans are generally the same is very false. They are vastly different. They are only similar to a shallow, superficial depth. Generalizations are very harmful....especially, for example, when it comes to medicine. You can't completely, effectively treat an individual patient based on a presumption of what's generally good....nor is it wise to treat an individual part of the body while ignoring the rest of it. Treat a cough with a syrup that tears up the stomach....it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[DaveyNY]

As the youngest of Four in a Very Dysfunctional plus Divorce Family, I can tell you that what was shown was very much a real possibility on both Spock and Michael's part.

Anger and Forgiveness never go hand-in-hand...
The animosity it causes can be a very difficult thing to get over, when it comes from a broken heart caused by a loved one.
Years can be, in some instances, not long enough.

 

[ireactions]

I initially wondered why the recap segment used the standard definition version of TOS clips instead of the remastered ones. Then I wondered if we'd get an explanation for the visual differences. Does Pike find that over time, he remembers past events as though they were the 60s pulp sci-fi novels he enjoys reading?

But, reading this thread, I realized the creators were bluntly declaring that yes, TREK looked like this in the 60s and asking that we accept that it's evolved visually since then but is still the same fictional world. Using the HD TOS clips would have undermined their statement and purpose. Characters are now played by different actors. The roles of model builders, set designers, propmakers, visual effects artists, costumers, writers and directors have also been recast.

I kept waiting for a Steven Moffat joke about the visual differences, perhaps saying Talosian mental projection cast a sheen over related memories, but I now see why there wasn't one.

 

[DaveyNY]

I initially wondered why the recap segment used the standard definition version of TOS clips instead of the remastered ones. Then I wondered if we'd get an explanation for the visual differences. Does Pike find that over time, he remembers past events as though they were the 60s pulp sci-fi novels he enjoys reading?

But, reading this thread, I realized the creators were bluntly declaring that yes, TREK looked like this in the 60s and asking that we accept that it's evolved visually since then but is still the same fictional world. Using the HD TOS clips would have undermined their statement and purpose. Characters are now played by different actors. The roles of model builders, set designers, propmakers, visual effects artists, costumers, writers and directors have also been recast.

I kept waiting for a Steven Moffat joke about the visual differences, perhaps saying Talosian mental projection cast a sheen over related memories, but I now see why there wasn't one.

But, there's absolutely no reason that what you thought before hand, can't be part of your particular head-canon.

Perhaps the Talosians are fooling us all.

 

[Tuskin38]

I didn’t notice on my watch through

https://twitter.com/TrekCore/status/1104519320103735296

The doctor tending to Spock in the psych ward didn’t have the delta pattern on her uniform.

I initially wondered why the recap segment used the standard definition version of TOS clips instead of the remastered ones. Then I wondered if we'd get an explanation for the visual differences. Does Pike find that over time, he remembers past events as though they were the 60s pulp sci-fi novels he enjoys reading?

But, reading this thread, I realized the creators were bluntly declaring that yes, TREK looked like this in the 60s and asking that we accept that it's evolved visually since then but is still the same fictional world. Using the HD TOS clips would have undermined their statement and purpose. Characters are now played by different actors. The roles of model builders, set designers, propmakers, visual effects artists, costumers, writers and directors have also been recast.

I kept waiting for a Steven Moffat joke about the visual differences, perhaps saying Talosian mental projection cast a sheen over related memories, but I now see why there wasn't one.

The footage they used was HD, they just didn’t use the HD footage of the ship for some reason.

 

[Gov Kodos]

No, the above reads more like someone is projecting regardless of what was or was not actually portrayed on screen.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

It read perfectly as a reading of the scene.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I didn’t notice on my watch through

https://twitter.com/TrekCore/status/1104519320103735296

The doctor tending to Spock in the psych ward didn’t have the delta pattern on her uniform.

Maybe she has an "Constitution style" uniform.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's not our Spock.

Every time the red angel from the future, interferes with the present, the timeline diverges.

Unless a previous fiddle,, accidentally killed Burham, then in the future that the angel originally came from, maybe the prime time line, Burnham died as a 12 year old to a beast attack.

"Sigh"

 

[ireactions]

I didn’t notice on my watch through

https://twitter.com/TrekCore/status/1104519320103735296

The doctor tending to Spock in the psych ward didn’t have the delta pattern on her uniform.


The footage they used was HD, they just didn’t use the HD footage of the ship for some reason.

Thanks for your correction. :-) I think it's clear why they declined to use the CG Enterprise in the recap.