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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

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Hythlodeus said:
he never said TOS nor did he say the original series, which is the same anyway, as far as I remember
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Semantics game possibly. Yes Fuller is fan enough that he should know ‘the original series’ has a different meaning in Trek, but it’s an easy game, as verbally saying that could mean TOS, or could mean all of the ‘original series’ plural. If he says it as an acronym, or if he tends to call TOS the ‘classic series’ then, it’s wide open.
 
Feron said:
No, it isn't that people who use the term "SJW" as a pejorative ephithet are comfortable marking ourselves as " anti-feminist, anti-progressive, and socially conservative" ... We've already learned the hard way, that with the SJW crowd, that there is NOTHING that we can do to win their approval. Just by our mere existence, according to their own declarations, we are inherently racist, sexist, homophobic, and every other single insult that the fascist far Left can throw at us.

[anecdote snipped]

A big reason why Trump won is precisely because of the Leftwing intolerance that is manifested in the SJW movement and the bias displayed at places like this. We are tired of the hateful lies being thrown at us every day. We are tired of the cultural Marxism that ignores MLK's injunction to judge people by the content of their character but instead focuses entirely on dividing people by race, sexual orientation, etc.

So no, we don't use the term "SJW" because we are "racist" or any of your other insults, we use it because the SJWs are real and they need to be utterly defeated. They are a hate-group that are threatening our very democracy and basic rights like freedom of speech.
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Look, from the anecdote you shared, your dad sounds like a stand-up guy. (At the very least, not a racist.) And I will readily agree that nobody deserves to have insults shouted at him in public just because of his stance in a political campaign... that's just not how politics should be conducted, even allowing that 2016 was an unusually passionate year.

And I appreciate that (unlike Indranee, whose post launched this tangent) you're willing to engage in discussion about this.

That said...

You seem to be somewhat triggered here, acting as if you've been insulted in your rush to defend an acronym that is itself a broad-brush insult of others. All I did was point out the connotations of that acronym. I didn't call you or your dad or anyone else a racist or a Nazi.

SJW, like MAGA (as I already mentioned), is not a term that can be taken at face value. It's all about the subtext, and what it signifies. Anyone wearing a MAGA hat (your dad included) isn't simply saying that he wants America to be a great country (even "again," for all the questions that begs). He's saying that he openly supports a presidential candidate who is a pathological liar, a malignant narcissist, a con man, a grifter, a racist, sexist, ignorant, delusional, out-and-out sociopath, inarguably the least qualified major-party presidential candidate (and now, least competent president) in living memory. The sort of person Trump was and is has never been a secret; it has always been on open display. So (insults notwithstanding) it's not unreasonable to draw some conclusions about a person from his choice to wear Trump's slogan.

As for SJW, it doesn't just stand for "social justice warrior" (and after all the notion of fighting for social justice is hardly a negative thing on its face). It has to be understood in the context of how it's come to be used, and by whom. Look at its widespread use in the "Gamergate" controversy, for instance. What I originally posted is accurate: it's an insult, one that's used dismissively, by people who very much do oppose progressive and feminist values, and take pride in doing so. It's particularly popular on the so-called "alt-right" these days. Using it is a deliberate rhetorical choice with clear implications.

I am steeped in politics, and I've spent years studying it. I am a proud progressive and a feminist. I think Bernie Sanders was hands-down the best presidential candidate in 2016. I'm pretty much as far left as the political spectrum goes in this country. (It's one of the reasons I've always loved Star Trek — the ways it exemplifies the kind of progressive values that are important to me.) I acknowledge the existence of patriarchy and structural racism, and their negative effects on our society, and my own unearned privilege as a straight white male. BUT. All that said, I emphatically do not support or relate to people who view everything through a filter of identity politics, who project an attitude of self-righteousness and antagonism, who hurl insults at strangers, who try to shut down the free speech of their opponents rather than engage in dialogue. However purportedly well-intentioned some of them may be (and pursuing a more egalitarian society is indeed a worthy intention), such people have no sense of effective political strategy or tactics, and all too often fail to live up to their own expressed ideals. Allies like that, one doesn't need.

However, while I disagree with such people (and have more than once found myself in fruitless quarrels with them), I don't call them "SJWs"... much less refer to the "SJW crowd" or an "SJW movement." There is no "movement"; we're talking here about a marginal fringe of people who just happen to be very vocal on a handful of campuses and blogs. And I certainly don't make sweeping statements about "the fascist far Left," or "far Left hatemongers," or "leftwing intolerance." (Honestly, for someone provoked by alleged insults you find misguided, you certainly have no problem leveling comparably sweeping insults at others... but I'm doing my best not to take it personally. And just for the record, anyone who thinks of fascism as in any way a phenomenon of the left has no sense of political history; it is unequivocally connected with the far right.) For my part, I know that such people do not exemplify or speak for progressive ideals... any more than Donald Trump or Roy Moore or Steve Bannon (or various alt-right rabble-rousers, or for that matter any number of execrable GOP members of Congress) speak for reasonable conservatives. I don't want to associate myself, even incidentally, with those who pretend that they do. So I eschew the term.

If I want to criticize identity politics, or opponents of free speech, or hatefully divisive attitudes, I criticize them on their merits, rather than trying to apply a label to those who engage in them. Bonus: I can be far more accurate that way, since such things are at least as widely practiced on the right as on the left.
 
[Political thing I want to say after reading a post but won't because it's DISC forum]

[Admin hat on]

I agree with the moderators in here. This *isn't* the place for American political politics. This is the place to argue about Burnham, Lorca, Voq/Ash and every decision the writers have made thus far.

The moderators have told y'all to stop with the politics in there. STOP. I've seen discussion continue after a few warnings and a few "knock it off" posts. We have a forum where you can duke it out if you wish (more than one, actually - one for polite discussion; one for gloves off) so if you need to discuss American politics, head there.

[Admin hat off]

Voq/Ash sucks and I hope we see the end of them both. Discuss! ;)
 
T'Bonz said:
Voq/Ash sucks and I hope we see the end of them both. Discuss! ;)
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TyVoq finds himself lost and friendless when he returns to the Prime Universe. Hated by human and Klingon alike he finds solace in the teachings of Surak. Always a joiner, and never one to go half-hog, TyVoq became something of a celebrity on Vulcan, marrying a local, and even adopting an orphan he renamed Tuvok in honor of himself and a certain racist former mentor, pushing him to join Starfleet at far too young an age..
 
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Fair enough. If there's a way to transplant a reply to a different subforum, I don't know about it, or I would've used it!
 
Hythlodeus said:
wait, have we seen MU T'Kuvma yet? Because I think I might have a theory if not
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I believe in the MU (like the PU) T'Kuvma was killed at the Battle of the Bimary Stars. MU Voq mentioned that - and I think like the PU - MU Burnham was the one who killed MU T'Kuvma.
 
Holy hell, it took me 5 days but I finally got to the end of the thread! ...Now I'm not really sure what to say that hasn't been covered, but here are some of my thoughts and reactions to the episode and to the 65 page discussion:

1. Good episode!
2. Mirror Universe being cartoon evil, I am okay with because I am partial to cartoon evil in my modern dramas. The big ass anime looking palace ship was icing on the cake. I would follow Emporer Georgiou to death (probably caused by her)
3. Lorca being MU, not a huge shock, but left me feeling MEH, but there is still great potential for him being just as complex and damaged as if he were the PU Lorca.
4a. I didn't like Culber's death the first time, and while his goodbye to Stamets was absolutely BEAUTIFUL, I did not like his death the second time either. I am willing to accept a reset with him and bring him back to life, because the disappointment of them doing that is far less intense than my disappointment if this is how they finish off ST's first gay relationship would be.
4b. I don't personally think that gay characters deserve plot armor or anything, but all of this feels like it was a mistake.
5. Initially thought that Stamets had switched bodies but while watching the scene was like, 'no wait he said HE did it...and he doesn't seem to be confused that he's on the Charon...' However, I agree that was edited very awkwardly.
6. Gore and swearing have not been a big deal to me. It's pretty normal for a show like this, I'd say.
7. I assumed that if Lorca and muMichael had an affair, it began when she was an adult. I also figured that Lorca "grooming" her was in recent years, as an adult, like her 20s and not the creepy pedo stuff some posters had assumed.
8. I am hoping that sometime down the line we meet PU Lorca, who was captured by the Klingons, and comes back as a different kind of damaged and questionable captain. I would love it if Isaacs got to play two different versions of the character. He's such a great actor. Maybe like a one-off guest star appearance or a mini-arc.
9. That said, I'm pretty ready to go back to the PU.

I'm not looking forward to the long wait for s2!
 
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