Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x04 - "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry"

[BillJ]

When the Admiral contacts Lorca, she mentions that the refinery had a defense fleet that was defeated by Klingons. One of the miners mentions the fleet as well in the distress call.

Then why didn't the Klingons finish the job, if they were there and had already defeated whomever was there? Why would they wait multiple hours for more reinforcements to show up?

 

[Noname Given]

Seems Starfleet should have had some kind of presence at its largest dilithium supplier. That would seem to be Combat 101.

If you heard the dialogue - they did. The Klingon Fleet destroyed the Fleet blockading and protecting the facility. After that the nearest ship was 78 hours away. The writers have one thing right - Starfleet in this time was primarily an Exploration Fleet not really suited or prepared for war. The peaceful explorers as getting wiped out - only war ready Captains like Lorca are the ones who'll be coming out of the war alive for the most part. (That's how these writers choose to explain how later in the TOS era there seemed to be more Captains who shot first and asked questions later.<--- It's because these types are the one's who will be bringing their ships and crews alive out of this war for the most part.

 

[Gonzo]

I don't know? 15 episodes and Discovery feels like it is all over the place, like it was written by a bunch of first time writers.

That's mainly due to the first two episodes though, admittedly there has been some changes made which were not really necessary and didn't really serve any purpose.

For instance the battle in the first two episodes would have been that much better if the Klingons had been using actual recognisable although updated D5/D7's and Birds of Prey, had recognisable facial characteristics and hadn't thrown out such extended painful monologues.

Any one of the above would have been tolerable I suspect but having all of them together was too much for some, especially after seeing the recognisable Starfleet ships which seemed pretty close to what we would expect except for the nacelles.

The main issue I think is that all the changes weren't really necessary for the story at all, its like someone decided to change things just for the hell of it, having the producer confirm the show is set in prime timeline just made it worse as its only 10 years before TOS.

I myself am fine with it but I can appreciate that some really are not, in each episode we seem to get a good panning shot of the Discovery from a different angle and the saucer looks rather large for this time period as we know the engineering section is at least as big.

I understand that the look of the TOS needed an update to 2017 quality which is fine but why would they knowingly change various areas for no good reason I can see when they knew it would upset some of the fan base.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The main issue I think is that all the changes weren't really necessary for the story at all, its like someone decided to change things just for the hell of it, having the producer confirm the show is set in prime timeline just made it worse as its only 10 years before TOS.

Agreed. Change for the sake of change never seems to be a good thing, historically, for any application.

 

[Ovation]

Then why didn't the Klingons finish the job, if they were there and had already defeated whomever was there? Why would they wait multiple hours for more reinforcements to show up?

The Klingons were still attacking when the Discovery showed up. They weren't "waiting around".

And as someone mentioned above, it's no surprise the war is going badly early on for the Federation. It appears the fleet, while armed, is not run primarily as a combat-ready military (I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of whether it IS a military--rather, I am of the view that it is run as a military of last resort, rather than a full-time, always battle-ready, force). I view Starfleet as akin to the US Coast Guard, where battle is not its first priority, but it can be called upon to participate in combat if necessary. Now imagine if the Coast Guard had some land-based personnel (units, not just on shore at coastal bases) and it was the ONLY military force on hand. Starfleet, to me, has always been like that (obviously, exploration substitutes for coastal defence). Pressed into combat when needed, but not oriented to combat as an institution. This view (for me) neatly resolves the "debates" about "is it/is it not" a military AND justifies why, when wars do break out, the fleet is often on the defensive.

As for tying in DSC to TOS, it seems the war will leave Starfleet rather decimated, with the Enterprise and its sister ships as the sturdy, if less tech-laden, primary force after the war. The need to re-establish all that is materially lost to the war might well lead to a decision to focus on the tried and true model (Constitution class) and rebuild the higher tech designs (as evident in TMP, only 3 years after TOS in-universe) when resources and time permit. Regression, even if only partial and temporary, in tech after significant conflict and destruction of resources, is not unknown nor surprising.

My two cents, anyway. As always, YMMV.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Y
Good point, but once again we get the "you're the only ship in the quadrant (or wherever)" contrivance. If the mining planet was that critical to the war effort, there should have been a lot more defensive capability nearby. It only looked like a small handful of BOP's attacking the facility. A reasonably strong planetary defense grid should have made short work of them.

I agree, there should have been some mention of orbital defenses, even if it was to say the Klingons had taken them out

So the Klingons manage to destroy the entire Fed fleet defending the planet, yet are easily defeated by Discovery...

I was wondering at the time why there were so few Klingon ships attacking the refinery. Again, I think a line of dialogue probably could have fixed this. All the admiral had to say was that the Klingon fleet had moved onto other targets and left the birds of prey to clean up or something.

 

[oberth]

That was true in the beginning, yes, which is why the "Temporal Cold War" that started a tad-bit later was supposed to be an "allegory" on the post-911 War on Terror. The Suliban was a thinly-veiled analog to the Taliban (hence the intentional similarity of the names - the very definition of "contrived"), you have Trip Tucker's sister get killed by the Suliban in their terror weapon sphere satellite attack on Florida and the rather ham-fisted finger-wagging about islamophobia, as it applies to Trip's hatred for their whole race (cause, y'know...his sister) and the many "they're not all bad" episodes that were written during the course of 2nd and 3rd seasons. Oh, yeah...and Space Nazis again - 'cause everyone hates the Nazis, right? That'll boost ratings! Oy vey!

They tried to say something, but the method by which they used to communicate that message didn't really resonate too well with the viewing public, which made it the first Trek series since TOS to get cancelled before its own time. Manny Coto tried to save it in S4 by fixing the Vulcans that Berman and Braga totally screwed up in S1-3 and finally moving into Romulan War territory, but by then it was too late and the ship was almost sunk.

wow, the suliban did that? so the federation went all george bush on those xinti for naught?

 

[Agony_Boothb]

wow, the suliban did that? so the federation went all george bush on those xinti for naught?

The Suliban didn't actually have anything to do with the Xindi attack on Earth as far as i recall. The Xindi were being manipulated by an extra-dimensional race called the Sphere Builders who wanted to invade our galaxy. The Sphere Builders could see different timelines and in the 'prime' timeline they saw that the Federation would prevent the invasion in the 26th century, So the sphere builders made up a bunch of lies about how humans were genocidal jerks who would destroy the xindi in the future. The Suliban kinda helped Archer a bit I think. It's been a while since i watched the third season.

 

[Ovation]

I agree, there should have been some mention of orbital defenses, even if it was to say the Klingons had taken them out



I was wondering at the time why there were so few Klingon ships attacking the refinery. Again, I think a line of dialogue probably could have fixed this. All the admiral had to say was that the Klingon fleet had moved onto other targets and left the birds of prey to clean up or something.

Why does this need to be Spelled. Out. In. Full. These are logical probabilities given what we do know, so it should not require someone on screen To. Fill. In. All. The. Blanks. We, as viewers, are allowed to use our imaginations and are smart enough to do so, no?

 

[137th Gebirg]

The Suliban didn't actually have anything to do with the Xindi attack on Earth as far as i recall. The Xindi were being manipulated by an extra-dimensional race called the Sphere Builders who wanted to invade our galaxy. The Sphere Builders could see different timelines and in the 'prime' timeline they saw that the Federation would prevent the invasion in the 26th century, So the sphere builders made up a bunch of lies about how humans were genocidal jerks who would destroy the xindi in the future. The Suliban kinda helped Archer a bit I think. It's been a while since i watched the third season.

I was under the impression that the Suliban were puppets of "Future Guy" and, yes, the Xindi, with the Sphere Builders pulling the strings. Pretty sure they and their "Cabal" had a hand in the attack, albeit not overtly like I originally misremembered. My memory is fuzzy on it - it's been around 15 years ago, so... There were some Suliban who helped along the way, yes, but they weren't initially supposed to be the "good guys". Silik's behavior exemplified that, and he was one of Archer's main adversaries.

As for the Suliban/Taliban connection, yes they were created as a race several months before 9/11, but the former were definitely based on the latter, and they were definitely used with the allegory angle post-9/11. Here's the quote:

The name "Suliban" was coined by Rick Berman, after the Taliban, months before the September 11, 2001 attacks. According to Berman, the "Taliban was just a mysterious, exotic name to me. Several years ago, I went to Afghanistan. I used to make documentary films and traveled around the world, and the Taliban regime was just getting a stronghold there. To me, there was something incredibly dramatic about the name Taliban. It was like something out of a Sinbad story." (TV Guide, May 5-11, 2002 ed.; brannonbraga.com(X))

 

[Nyotarules]

1. Watching this show now, I have decided that the Federation deserves to lose the war for being so stupid to have Corvan II which supplies 40% of its dilithium unprotected. Are the writers this stupid, undefended colony, and the USS Shenzou drifting in space for 6 months????
Please!
2. Klingon actors please remove that wad of tissue from your mouth
3. The real reason spore drive was never used, all the crew who suffered from hayfever had an allergic reaction
4. I wish the doctor was a Tellarite, just for the comic relief aspect of the show
5. Captain Lorca is a soldier, not an explorer; Picard would hate him, Kirk would fight him, Sisko would applaud him, Janeway would feed him to Ripper! lol
6. Landry deserved to die, the damn fool!
7. Love the holomirror.
8. Ripper is E.T, it just wants to go home.

 

[Gonzo]

Agreed. Change for the sake of change never seems to be a good thing, historically, for any application.

I don't mind change, I loved the new films and think they are great and I understand why it was decided to do an alternate timeline reboot and can see on the screen the advantages that decision brings.

I just cant see any advantages in the changes that have been made the overall design of the Klingons and their technology, the first two episodes were so jarring even I noticed, did they not realise the constraints that would be placed on them by basing the show only 10 years before TOS which has been so heavily shown on TV and the media.

I liked the addition of the Shenzou to show one of the last ships in the NX lineage which is a nice callback and in keeping with the prime timeline but then they go and completely change the Klingons.

It makes me wonder if the script writers are planning a deus ex machina involving either time travel which would mean its no longer prime timeline or the mirror universe which for me doesn't really fit the general snowflakery of Starfleet that I have seen.

I am having real difficulty understanding what the point is to the unforced changes in one area but not another.

 

[oberth]

The Suliban didn't actually have anything to do with the Xindi attack on Earth as far as i recall. The Xindi were being manipulated by an extra-dimensional race called the Sphere Builders who wanted to invade our galaxy. The Sphere Builders could see different timelines and in the 'prime' timeline they saw that the Federation would prevent the invasion in the 26th century, So the sphere builders made up a bunch of lies about how humans were genocidal jerks who would destroy the xindi in the future. The Suliban kinda helped Archer a bit I think. It's been a while since i watched the third season.

you don't say

 

[Michael]

By the way, loved the apocalypic imagery in the opening scene, which turned out to be an extreme zoom-in on Burnham's uniform being replicated

Yup, that looked awesome. At first I thought this was some kind of visual representation of the mycelial plane. So, are these replicators now or what?

I...don't think it's actually the telescope that was set up in her ready room/office. It looks rusted, at what point exactly could it have gotten rusted? Exposure to vacuum doesn't even do that. This is going to sound crazy but it's very common in collectors or people passionate about something to have doubles of the exact same object. One for purely display, keepsake purposes and the other for use. My fiance for example does this, she has a set of Harry Potter books she reads and a set she will never touch but keeps on the shelf for esthetic purposes amongst other things. It's very possible the one she has set up she has set up because she likes the novelty of using one, or heck she's a telescope afficionado. It's no different than Picard and his relics and Sisko and his African art collection. She has the family one in storage somewhere (probably earth or whichever place she calls home off the ship) and she has a replica with her.

Yeah, I had that thought as well. The telescope looked older than the one Georgiou had on the Shenzhou.

Seems Starfleet should have had some kind of presence at its largest dilithium supplier. That would seem to be Combat 101.

Watching this show now, I have decided that the Federation deserves to lose the war for being so stupid not to have Corvan II which supplies 40% of its dilithium unprotected. Are the writers this stupid, undefended colony

Uhm, guys, they did mention a blockade of ships protecting the colony. It was in no way “undefended”. How would it stand so long if it was?

Loved those effects shots of the Discovery using the spore drive:

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Dedicated technology discussion for this episode can be found here:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/dsc-1x04-starships-and-technology-spoilers.290485/

Mark

 

[Ometiklan]

So the Klingons manage to destroy the entire Fed fleet defending the planet, yet are easily defeated by Discovery...

Only those few Klingons left to bombard the station's shields down. The rest of the fleet could have gone off to an important battle, one where the Federation forces were <84 hours away.

1. Watching this show now, I have decided that the Federation deserves to lose the war for being so stupid not to have Corvan II which supplies 40% of its dilithium unprotected. Are the writers this stupid, undefended colony, and the USS Shenzou drifting in space for 6 months????
Please!...

Maybe rewatch it cause you missed the dialog about the defending forces...
The Shenzhou was an old ship, crippled in battle. The crew escaped with any valuable components. There was no pressing need to try to go harvest a relic and haul it multiple lightyears to a starbase when there was a pressing war to fight.

Now the cloaking device - that would have been a nice prize. Still don't get why no one went to harvest that from the Sarcophagus ship.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Why does this need to be Spelled. Out. In. Full. These are logical probabilities given what we do know, so it should not require someone on screen To. Fill. In. All. The. Blanks. We, as viewers, are allowed to use our imaginations and are smart enough to do so, no?

Understood, and I'm not saying that everything needs to be spelled out, but these conversations are part and parcel of being a star trek fan In fairness, I can understand why people would want some descriptor of certain events. Having said that, even if an explanation had been given like, the Klingons had taken the orbital batteries by destroying their power supply or something, someone would invariably have criticised that explanation and then questioned how the federation could have left a strategically important location with such average defenses.

I was under the impression that the Suliban were puppets of "Future Guy" and, yes, the Xindi, with the Sphere Builders pulling the strings. Pretty sure they and their "Cabal" had a hand in the attack, albeit not overtly like I originally misremembered. My memory is fuzzy on it - it's been around 15 years ago, so... There were some Suliban who helped along the way, yes, but they weren't initially supposed to be the "good guys". Silik's behavior exemplified that, and he was one of Archer's main adversaries.

Yeah, that whole temporal cold war arc was convoluted from day one and so was the xindi arc. I think I only remember about 4 episodes from that season.[/QUOTE]

 

[Agony_Boothb]

you don't say

Sorry man, I thought you had been initially asking if starfleet went after the Xindi when it should have been the suliban, because you may not have seen the third season. Apologies if that wasn't the case! Was just trying to be helpful

 

[Fateor]

I've not got far into the Discovery novel yet, but I believe Burnham was a senior tactical officer before whatever role she was in specifically at the time of the pilot, so I wonder if a certain death might lead to her filling that role on Discovery's bridge?

She couldn't tell the obvious difference between an asteroid strike and a disrupter burn.

She wasn't a tactical officer.

Then why didn't the Klingons finish the job, if they were there and had already defeated whomever was there? Why would they wait multiple hours for more reinforcements to show up?

A better question is why were the Klingons still alive?

They had a shield that could survive hours of continued bombardment but not a single weapon emplacement sitting under it?

 

[oberth]

Sorry man, I thought you had been initially asking if starfleet went after the Xindi when it should have been the suliban, because you may not have seen the third season. Apologies if that wasn't the case! Was just trying to be helpful

i thought 'going all george bush' made it clear i was being sarcastic